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Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: Dave Davidson] #8607657 05/29/22 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Davidson
You can look at it from several directions but: The bottom line is still that small children were murdered while cops (protect and defend) were on the scene and didn’t one damn thing to keep them alive.

This is a black eye that will never heal.


There are plenty of openings in law enforcement around the state if you would like to sign up and show us all how it is done correctly.

Last edited by Concho; 05/29/22 03:25 PM.




Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: huntingbig8] #8607663 05/29/22 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by huntingbig8
There won't be a good enough excuse for this failure, I'm not LE and would go in for any of your kids as well as mine.



19 Officers did go in.....Please share with us how you would have breeched the door that is locked from the inside, only opens outward, only using the tools you would have had at your disposal when responding?





Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: jskin] #8607668 05/29/22 03:39 PM
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Had a student from South Africa explain that schools there look like prisons and was curious why they were not the same why in the us to prevent things like this.

I explained that the people here are not ready to send their kids to a facility that looks like a prison so we are where we are still.

We will get there w truly single point of entry and such


i am cancelling my subscription, i am tired of your issues!
Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: The Dude Abides] #8607670 05/29/22 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TXGUNNER308
Shooter obviously had no problem getting in the building. Work the problem, look for alternative entry points. Don’t just throw hands up and wait for others to show up. Initial minutes are crucial. One scene commander and 18 other officers failed to Protect and Serve. They failed to get into the fight. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way!!!


The police entered the same door the shooter entered, which was standing open, the problem was breeching the door to the classroom. The question is why was an outside door and a classroom door open for the shooter's easy access.





Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: Concho] #8607679 05/29/22 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Concho
Originally Posted by huntingbig8
There won't be a good enough excuse for this failure, I'm not LE and would go in for any of your kids as well as mine.



19 Officers did go in.....Please share with us how you would have breeched the door that is locked from the inside, only opens outward, only using the tools you would have had at your disposal when responding?


Not who you asked but your answer is using a key, the same as the police did. At any school a key to the door could have been obtained in two minutes. The issue wasn’t opening the door. It was that nobody opened the door for an hour.


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Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: jskin] #8607688 05/29/22 03:57 PM
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Police are easy scape goats for the failures of society, time to look at the total failure here, the school failed, police failed, society failed, we can all share the blame. How many on this forum are against Red Flag Laws and have spoken out against them? Sorry, but mental illness / making threats of gun violence are a total 1000% reason for that person NOT to have a gun.





Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: Smokey Bear] #8607690 05/29/22 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
Originally Posted by Concho
Originally Posted by huntingbig8
There won't be a good enough excuse for this failure, I'm not LE and would go in for any of your kids as well as mine.



19 Officers did go in.....Please share with us how you would have breeched the door that is locked from the inside, only opens outward, only using the tools you would have had at your disposal when responding?


Not who you asked but your answer is using a key, the same as the police did. At any school a key to the door could have been obtained in two minutes. The issue wasn’t opening the door. It was that nobody opened the door for an hour.


Please explain how "a key could have been obtained in two minutes" Where you there? Yes, didn't think so......the school was on lockdown, people were hiding and doors were locked, I just love Monday Morning Quarterbacks......NOT.

Last edited by Concho; 05/29/22 04:01 PM.




Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: Concho] #8607696 05/29/22 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Concho
Originally Posted by Dave Davidson
You can look at it from several directions but: The bottom line is still that small children were murdered while cops (protect and defend) were on the scene and didn’t one damn thing to keep them alive.

This is a black eye that will never heal.


There are plenty of openings in law enforcement around the state if you would like to sign up and show us all how it is done correctly.


Their are plenty of of officers questioning this incident, and they were already signed up.


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Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: jskin] #8607701 05/29/22 04:11 PM
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Go back to the root cause, why did the teacher block the door open. Haven't heard much about this.

Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: Simple Searcher] #8607702 05/29/22 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Simple Searcher
Originally Posted by Concho
Originally Posted by Dave Davidson
You can look at it from several directions but: The bottom line is still that small children were murdered while cops (protect and defend) were on the scene and didn’t one damn thing to keep them alive.

This is a black eye that will never heal.


There are plenty of openings in law enforcement around the state if you would like to sign up and show us all how it is done correctly.


Their are plenty of of officers questioning this incident, and they were already signed up.


Oh, I'm questioning the response too, look back at the early parts of this thread.....the commander has some explaining to do if the facts we now know are true. Police officers are much like military personnel, we follow orders. In this incident the decision to hold in place as a barricade or hostage situation was WRONG, no debate. Like I said before, a non-tactically trained commander in charge of a tactical situation rarely turns out well.





Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: Simple Searcher] #8607704 05/29/22 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Simple Searcher
Originally Posted by Concho
Originally Posted by Dave Davidson
You can look at it from several directions but: The bottom line is still that small children were murdered while cops (protect and defend) were on the scene and didn’t one damn thing to keep them alive.

This is a black eye that will never heal.


There are plenty of openings in law enforcement around the state if you would like to sign up and show us all how it is done correctly.


Their are plenty of of officers questioning this incident, and they were already signed up.



Questioning the incident trying to understand facts

Last edited by Brother in-law; 05/29/22 04:17 PM.
Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: Donpilot] #8607705 05/29/22 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Donpilot
Go back to the root cause, why did the teacher block the door open. Haven't heard much about this.


That and the shooter seems to have been lost in the discussion by folks here and in the media, you have to ask why the narrative suddenly shifted to the police and guns.....people by nature look for someone to blame and then lash out at them.





Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: Donpilot] #8607707 05/29/22 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Donpilot
Go back to the root cause, why did the teacher block the door open. Haven't heard much about this.


She was unloading something from her vehicle.


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Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: jskin] #8607708 05/29/22 04:20 PM
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Sad thing here is we might not be having this discussion if that teacher hadn't broken long established protocol by propping that door open.


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Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: jskin] #8607715 05/29/22 04:29 PM
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Wonder if the teacher that left door propped open is getting death threats like local police officers are

Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: Concho] #8607717 05/29/22 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Concho
Originally Posted by huntingbig8
There won't be a good enough excuse for this failure, I'm not LE and would go in for any of your kids as well as mine.



19 Officers did go in.....Please share with us how you would have breeched the door that is locked from the inside, only opens outward, only using the tools you would have had at your disposal when responding?



The bullet which leaves the barrel of my gun would take out a window pretty easily. Any other mountains you need climbed?

Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: Concho] #8607721 05/29/22 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Concho
Originally Posted by Donpilot
Go back to the root cause, why did the teacher block the door open. Haven't heard much about this.


That and the shooter seems to have been lost in the discussion by folks here and in the media, you have to ask why the narrative suddenly shifted to the police and guns.....people by nature look for someone to blame and then lash out at them.


Um yeah, the root cause in this is not a door left open....the root cause here is a sick marginalized 18yo wanted to harm a lot of people and had a plan to do that. The door is simply something that helped the root cause, but wasn't the root cause.

Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: jskin] #8607725 05/29/22 04:38 PM
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I love the police as a group. When some folks ignore the bad in folks because they wear a badge it is goofy. Concho stood tall on the Waco biker debacle and I believe just about every person arrested that day had their charges dropped. I’d be real interested in all the ballistic evidence from that scene.

Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: jskin] #8607727 05/29/22 04:39 PM
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Every time one of these school shooting occurs, we get all irate and upset, place blame on everyone but ourselves......and then before long, we all forget and go back to our simple lives.We never make much of a course correction, and we start violating protocols and practices set in place from the last shooting. I hate to say it, but, most of the smaller departments are under staffed and poorly trained......and before the same person chimes in that there is "Free Training" understand that these police commanders are trying to work around manpower shortages, money for travel, money for hotels, and all sorts of other obstacles, just because some training is free doesn't feed the bulldog.....we are under attack by the left wingers, who want to defund us and our training.





Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: jskin] #8607738 05/29/22 04:58 PM
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These events don’t make any sense at all. We are wired to need some sort of closure to make sense of it all. That is often manifested by finding people/entities to blame.

Not enough Sunday school
Churches fault
Parents fault
Medias fault
Social medias fault
Shooter games fault
Police fault
Medical fault
Phamas fault
Teachers fault
Educational systems fault
Governments fault
Gunmakers fault

In the end it’s the murderers fault.


To be determined
Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: jskin] #8607750 05/29/22 05:15 PM
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Two different snips that help answer some of my questions about the locked doors and how swift action was once a key was obtained. It appears that a lot more than nothing was attempted in the first two minutes of entry when the two Officers got shot.



11:33 a.m.: The shooter enters the school and begins shooting into a classroom, which is connected to a second class. He shot "at least" 100 rounds, McCraw said.
11:35 a.m.: Three Uvalde Police Department officers enter through the same door as the suspect. Another three Uvalde police officers and a county sheriff follow, McCraw said, for a total of seven officers on scene.
The three initial officers went directly to the class door, which was closed, and two received grazing wounds from the shooter, McCraw said.
11:37 a.m.: Another 16 rounds are fired in the following minutes.


The official said an off-duty Border Patrol tactical agent from the agency’s Border Patrol Tactical Unit, or BORTAC, was the first to arrive outside the classroom around 12:15 p.m. Local police and other officers assembled in the hallway told the agent that the shooter was barricaded inside the classroom, which the agent described as “quiet,” according to the official.
The agent saw bullet holes in the classroom door, and police told the agent that the suspect had attempted to shoot at them through the opening. The agent began planning the tactical operation to enter the classroom and additional BORTAC agents arrived 15 minutes or so later, the official said.
The agents did not have a battering ram or breaching tools. A U.S. marshal on the scene provided the agents with a ballistic shield.
“They have not told me they were frustrated,” the official said. “But they told me it was hard to discern who was in charge.”
The first BORTAC agent “basically said, ‘Let’s get this done’ ” and began planning the entry to the classroom, the official said.
“It wasn’t a huge team,” he said. “It was one agent from here, two from there, and they just converged there.”
During that time, Border Patrol agents, police and other law enforcement personnel were evacuating the other classrooms.
The agent said he did not hear shots fired inside the classroom during the period the officers sent for the key to unlock the classroom. Once they had the key, there were able to open the door while standing off to the side, shielded by the outer wall of the classroom. “Within minutes of getting the key, they made their entry,” the official said.
They unlocked the door and went in behind the BORTAC agent holding the shield. Two other BORTAC agents, a Border Patrol Search, Trauma and Rescue (BORSTAR) agent and at least one sheriff’s deputy followed. Ramos came out of a closet firing at them, and they returned fire, the official said, killing him.

Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: jskin] #8607767 05/29/22 05:33 PM
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Again, if this is how the facts of the situation played out, how could the LE do anything more? If they were in the building, outside the locked classroom with no way to get in, within 2 minutes and the majority of the shots fired were done before that, what more could they have done? I am asking as a non-LE non-expert in door breaching techniques.

It is hard to wrap our heads around the trauma those poor kids that were shot went through and the trauma of the survivors will be lifelong. And I know we want to "blame something" instead of blaming someone for this debacle, but this is far different form the MSM narrative that LE didn't enter the building for a full 40-60 minutes.

Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: Brother in-law] #8607769 05/29/22 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Brother in-law

Two different snips that help answer some of my questions about the locked doors and how swift action was once a key was obtained. It appears that a lot more than nothing was attempted in the first two minutes of entry when the two Officers got shot.



11:33 a.m.: The shooter enters the school and begins shooting into a classroom, which is connected to a second class. He shot "at least" 100 rounds, McCraw said.
11:35 a.m.: Three Uvalde Police Department officers enter through the same door as the suspect. Another three Uvalde police officers and a county sheriff follow, McCraw said, for a total of seven officers on scene.
The three initial officers went directly to the class door, which was closed, and two received grazing wounds from the shooter, McCraw said.
11:37 a.m.: Another 16 rounds are fired in the following minutes.


The official said an off-duty Border Patrol tactical agent from the agency’s Border Patrol Tactical Unit, or BORTAC, was the first to arrive outside the classroom around 12:15 p.m. Local police and other officers assembled in the hallway told the agent that the shooter was barricaded inside the classroom, which the agent described as “quiet,” according to the official.
The agent saw bullet holes in the classroom door, and police told the agent that the suspect had attempted to shoot at them through the opening. The agent began planning the tactical operation to enter the classroom and additional BORTAC agents arrived 15 minutes or so later, the official said.
The agents did not have a battering ram or breaching tools. A U.S. marshal on the scene provided the agents with a ballistic shield.
“They have not told me they were frustrated,” the official said. “But they told me it was hard to discern who was in charge.”
The first BORTAC agent “basically said, ‘Let’s get this done’ ” and began planning the entry to the classroom, the official said.
“It wasn’t a huge team,” he said. “It was one agent from here, two from there, and they just converged there.”
During that time, Border Patrol agents, police and other law enforcement personnel were evacuating the other classrooms.
The agent said he did not hear shots fired inside the classroom during the period the officers sent for the key to unlock the classroom. Once they had the key, there were able to open the door while standing off to the side, shielded by the outer wall of the classroom. “Within minutes of getting the key, they made their entry,” the official said.
They unlocked the door and went in behind the BORTAC agent holding the shield. Two other BORTAC agents, a Border Patrol Search, Trauma and Rescue (BORSTAR) agent and at least one sheriff’s deputy followed. Ramos came out of a closet firing at them, and they returned fire, the official said, killing him.



I'm concerned that the facts will not help, these folks in Uvalde need someone to blame, the media needs to bring attention to the police and confiscation of guns, the current administration needs to divert attention from their failures, meanwhile, 19 children and two teachers are deceased by the actions of a LONE NUT, who probably could have been stopped long before this incident occurred......the media keeps saying that the shooter had no mental illness history, but the ones of us who deal with these folks everyday know these mentally ill folks are protected by laws that prevent anyone from knowing they are mentally ill.





Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: jskin] #8607772 05/29/22 05:37 PM
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And those mental health laws are brought to you by the same Washington DC bunch calling for gun control.





Re: LEO question about Uvalde shooting [Re: jskin] #8607773 05/29/22 05:38 PM
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I'm confused. How did the perp get in the room? I heard he shot out a window.


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