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Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: tlk] #8590432 05/03/22 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tlk
Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by tr22johnson
I'm looking to diversify my portfolio mainly on long term. My financial advisor's/planner's are recommending setting up and contributing to a Whole Life Policy. Looking to see if anyone has personal experiences doing so. Here's a quick backdrop without giving too much information
43 years old-all tax deferred retirement is maxed out annually with most if not all 401K contributions being kicked back to me because of ESOP pushing to and exceeding the cap. I still continue to contribute to 401K however because company matched $0.50 on the $1.00 upto 5%.
On paper with dividends-a whole life policy looks to be a solid long term but would have to remain untouched for 15-20years....Looking for ways to re-invest my kickbacks out of the 401K.

Most Whole Life policies are expensive for the cost of insurance when you get middle age or older.......based on what your trying to accomplish you should consider investing the money in low cost ETFs for growth in an individual investment account. Don't fall into the tax trap of deferring tax dollars to retirement.......participate in your work place plan contributing POST TAX contributions, not Pre Tax.........If you look at this arrangement of stuffing tax dollars into your retirement account, your doing nothing more than growing a debt liability without any clear picture of what the cost is your going to pay on that debt.......as matter of fact, your are guaranteeing to grow your debt liability if your grow your 401(k).......When you buy things in life besides groceries, when do you get an option to put the taxes on your IOU account? Especially if they said to you the tax debt could double or triple before you paid it back? You also take away the ability to ever use a loss to offset a capital gain......And you are penalized potentially with higher taxes and Medicare costs the more fully taxable income you spend on retirement.......which is the type of income that distributes from IRAs and 401(k)s.......the only people who benefit from you stuffing all that tax in your retirement accounts are the brokers, insurance agents and financial advisors that sell you investment products for these retirement accounts.......they get paid on the tax money you stuff in those accounts......


I know there are situations where Roth is the right choice especially for younger investors. I also know now days of the push by planners to get older investors to change their traditional IRA/401k into Roths.

What I always fail to hear from the folks promoting this is the calculation on what the loss of earnings amounts to on the tax money they paid to the IRS before they had to?? Once a dollar goes to Uncle Sam it will never be seen again nor will it ever earn another penny of interest.

First of all, the interest your are calculating on the tax is negated by the growth of the tax itself.......Second, like any debt with the government....the only way you get out of paying is bankruptcy.......your beneficiaries are gonna pay or you will, one or the other.....and the longer you delay paying the debt, the more your owe when you pay it.....


Marc C. Helfrich
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Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #8590438 05/03/22 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by tlk
Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by tr22johnson
I'm looking to diversify my portfolio mainly on long term. My financial advisor's/planner's are recommending setting up and contributing to a Whole Life Policy. Looking to see if anyone has personal experiences doing so. Here's a quick backdrop without giving too much information
43 years old-all tax deferred retirement is maxed out annually with most if not all 401K contributions being kicked back to me because of ESOP pushing to and exceeding the cap. I still continue to contribute to 401K however because company matched $0.50 on the $1.00 upto 5%.
On paper with dividends-a whole life policy looks to be a solid long term but would have to remain untouched for 15-20years....Looking for ways to re-invest my kickbacks out of the 401K.

Most Whole Life policies are expensive for the cost of insurance when you get middle age or older.......based on what your trying to accomplish you should consider investing the money in low cost ETFs for growth in an individual investment account. Don't fall into the tax trap of deferring tax dollars to retirement.......participate in your work place plan contributing POST TAX contributions, not Pre Tax.........If you look at this arrangement of stuffing tax dollars into your retirement account, your doing nothing more than growing a debt liability without any clear picture of what the cost is your going to pay on that debt.......as matter of fact, your are guaranteeing to grow your debt liability if your grow your 401(k).......When you buy things in life besides groceries, when do you get an option to put the taxes on your IOU account? Especially if they said to you the tax debt could double or triple before you paid it back? You also take away the ability to ever use a loss to offset a capital gain......And you are penalized potentially with higher taxes and Medicare costs the more fully taxable income you spend on retirement.......which is the type of income that distributes from IRAs and 401(k)s.......the only people who benefit from you stuffing all that tax in your retirement accounts are the brokers, insurance agents and financial advisors that sell you investment products for these retirement accounts.......they get paid on the tax money you stuff in those accounts......


I know there are situations where Roth is the right choice especially for younger investors. I also know now days of the push by planners to get older investors to change their traditional IRA/401k into Roths.

What I always fail to hear from the folks promoting this is the calculation on what the loss of earnings amounts to on the tax money they paid to the IRS before they had to?? Once a dollar goes to Uncle Sam it will never be seen again nor will it ever earn another penny of interest.

First of all, the interest your are calculating on the tax is negated by the growth of the tax itself.......Second, like any debt with the government....the only way you get out of paying is bankruptcy.......your beneficiaries are gonna pay or you will, one or the other.....and the longer you delay paying the debt, the more your owe when you pay it.....


The premise/assumption is based on income tax rates being higher in future years and during someone's retirement years - brackets may or may not be higher in future years.

Most retirees are in lower tax brackets once they quit working - so for retirees or folks near retirement IMO it is not always wise to convert their traditional to Roth - just my take


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Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: tlk] #8590441 05/03/22 10:23 PM
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I respect your take.......just don't see it that way myself.......being that I'm a retirement planner by trade I share with you that no, most retirees do not lower their income for retirement.......they want to continue with the lifestyle they are accustomed to and usually want to add more income for bucket list items they have time for now.....And I don't like using the "crystal ball" planning approach......which is acting like I have any clue what future taxes are going to be for my clients when they retire.....I would guess they are going to be higher based on the trillions in debt but history shows we don't know until we know.....

Last edited by Pitchfork Predator; 05/03/22 10:33 PM.

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Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #8590448 05/03/22 10:32 PM
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I was a planner for 42 years - just retired - as you well know it all depends on the individual's situation -

I just hear a lot of planners on the radio now days advocating that everyone needs to convert to Roth -

I admit that I am old school - every penny I have accumulated in my retirement accounts has been tax deferred - now that the RMD's are changing to age 75 just lets me keep my money longer to stay invested -

again being old school I have told my two kiddos that once wife and I are gone you get what is left over - if there are taxes on it then deal with it -


You can't fix stupid
Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: tr22johnson] #8590455 05/03/22 10:49 PM
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We have a second-to-die policy to, hopefully, help our kids "deal with it".


...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: tlk] #8590457 05/03/22 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by tlk
I was a planner for 42 years - just retired - as you well know it all depends on the individual's situation -

I just hear a lot of planners on the radio now days advocating that everyone needs to convert to Roth -

I admit that I am old school - every penny I have accumulated in my retirement accounts has been tax deferred - now that the RMD's are changing to age 75 just lets me keep my money longer to stay invested -

again being old school I have told my two kiddos that once wife and I are gone you get what is left over - if there are taxes on it then deal with it -

Congrats on your retirement!

.....I hope your kiddos don't end up paying lots of income tax to the government now that they took away inherited IRAs changing the RMD age to 75....liquidating all of your qualified accounts over that ten year period will be a win for the IRS because as you know that will be income they have to add to what they make each year during the 10 year distribution period....They will be paying triple for Part B premiums during that 10 year distribution period as well going over the highest allowed MAGI threshold....

Roth Conversion should be in every retirement income plan IMO......you just want to talk to a professional before you convert and in most cases it's a long term conversion program that you set goals for and hope you can come close to achieving them over a 20-30 year time horizon.....the current tax cuts expire in 2026 and who's in charge will decide if the rates go back up but long term with trillions in debt and adding every day I believe the prudent plan is expecting tax rates to rise significantly in the long term.....


Marc C. Helfrich
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Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: Creekrunner] #8590460 05/03/22 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Creekrunner
We have a second-to-die policy to, hopefully, help our kids "deal with it".

A great tool for the task.....just make sure the policy is owned by a Irrevocable Life Insurance Trust to shield the death benefit from being counted in your total estate value at death....


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Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #8590461 05/03/22 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Creekrunner
We have a second-to-die policy to, hopefully, help our kids "deal with it".

A great tool for the task.....just make sure the policy is owned by a Irrevocable Life Insurance Trust to shield the death benefit from being counted in your total estate value at death....

Done. up


...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: tr22johnson] #8590473 05/03/22 11:08 PM
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I have a couple whole life policies that I started 10+ years ago. I did it for several reasons....tax free withdrawals in retirement and permanent life insurance. At this point the cash value is significant and for me it was another way to diversify. If you want to access the cash value it is easy to do so. I wanted permanent life insurance for a few reasons as well. I also have term policies that I laddered.

For most people whole life is not a great deal, and you'd be better off getting term. And honestly, if I had just put that money into the market it would be worth more, but I really wanted a lifetime death benefit.

Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: BOBO the Clown] #8590520 05/04/22 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by Hudbone
for the most part, having an estate tax problem is better than not having one. Especially true if life insurance is creating the' "issue".


Kind of my thoughts. Even then it can be used to offset some potential taxes


Obviously true, if it's set up right. If not, it will only enhance the problem. That's what estate planning experts are for, not a life insurance agent.

Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #8590529 05/04/22 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Creekrunner
We have a second-to-die policy to, hopefully, help our kids "deal with it".

A great tool for the task.....just make sure the policy is owned by a Irrevocable Life Insurance Trust to shield the death benefit from being counted in your total estate value at death....


That was my point in saying that it does have it's place, but an investment isn't one of them. It has to be set up correctly so as not to create more problems.

Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: tr22johnson] #8590556 05/04/22 01:18 AM
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This has been an interesting thread for me. It shows me just how much I dont know about what I dont know.


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: Jgraider] #8590576 05/04/22 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Jgraider
Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Creekrunner
We have a second-to-die policy to, hopefully, help our kids "deal with it".

A great tool for the task.....just make sure the policy is owned by a Irrevocable Life Insurance Trust to shield the death benefit from being counted in your total estate value at death....


That was my point in saying that it does have it's place, but an investment isn't one of them. It has to be set up correctly so as not to create more problems.



no life insurance policy is a problem with taxes unless your estate is more than 24 million for a couple (as stated in my earlier response to you) - otherwise the proceeds are income and estate tax free even if you own the policy - No need for a life insurance trust unless your total estate value will exceed 24 million


You can't fix stupid
Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #8590580 05/04/22 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by tlk
I was a planner for 42 years - just retired - as you well know it all depends on the individual's situation -

I just hear a lot of planners on the radio now days advocating that everyone needs to convert to Roth -

I admit that I am old school - every penny I have accumulated in my retirement accounts has been tax deferred - now that the RMD's are changing to age 75 just lets me keep my money longer to stay invested -

again being old school I have told my two kiddos that once wife and I are gone you get what is left over - if there are taxes on it then deal with it -

Congrats on your retirement!

.....I hope your kiddos don't end up paying lots of income tax to the government now that they took away inherited IRAs changing the RMD age to 75....liquidating all of your qualified accounts over that ten year period will be a win for the IRS because as you know that will be income they have to add to what they make each year during the 10 year distribution period....They will be paying triple for Part B premiums during that 10 year distribution period as well going over the highest allowed MAGI threshold....

Roth Conversion should be in every retirement income plan IMO......you just want to talk to a professional before you convert and in most cases it's a long term conversion program that you set goals for and hope you can come close to achieving them over a 20-30 year time horizon.....the current tax cuts expire in 2026 and who's in charge will decide if the rates go back up but long term with trillions in debt and adding every day I believe the prudent plan is expecting tax rates to rise significantly in the long term.....



Thanks but I do not need to talk to a professional - I was and have been a professional for over 4 decades - once again every individuals situation is different and for my situation I do not need nor want a Roth conversion - I have been around long enough to know that tax rates and brackets will go up and down over the years - I am betting that mine long term go down - so just a difference in opinions - carry on


You can't fix stupid
Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: freerange] #8590581 05/04/22 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by freerange
This has been an interesting thread for me. It shows me just how much I dont know about what I dont know.



I would bet money that your financial planning is just fine. up Just like stock tips, this place is not the place to get insurance advice. A real financial planner/tax accountant is the way to go. And not the guys that are on every other block. I've known too many financial "advisors" that went into "advising" 'cause they couldn't find anything else. rolleyes


...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: tlk] #8590588 05/04/22 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by tlk
Originally Posted by Jgraider
Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Creekrunner
We have a second-to-die policy to, hopefully, help our kids "deal with it".

A great tool for the task.....just make sure the policy is owned by a Irrevocable Life Insurance Trust to shield the death benefit from being counted in your total estate value at death....


That was my point in saying that it does have it's place, but an investment isn't one of them. It has to be set up correctly so as not to create more problems.



no life insurance policy is a problem with taxes unless your estate is more than 24 million for a couple (as stated in my earlier response to you) - otherwise the proceeds are income and estate tax free even if you own the policy - No need for a life insurance trust unless your total estate value will exceed 24 million


With the current tax laws those limits are cut in half in a couple years. We are still at historically low tax rates compared to the last 75 years....they'll go back up eventually.

A laddered Roth conversion in early retirement makes a lot of sense if someone plans to pass down any inheritance.

Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: tr22johnson] #8590700 05/04/22 11:42 AM
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Very interesting read with many different opinions, which is what I was after-real world instances and experience's, but also take as tongue in cheek information. I trust my financial planner so far but just like Pitchfork and TLK-come from same profession and back ground but both have a difference in opinion on the subject. I also know that it will greatly vary case by case on individual's are hard to determine without all known details, but this gives me some ideas to bounce back off both my planner as well as estate attorney about possible future inherited implications.

Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: tr22johnson] #8590713 05/04/22 12:05 PM
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If you utilize debt as a growth mechanism, life insurance should be strongly considered. Whole or universal life insurance should never ever be the sole investment. Life insurance as an investment or hedge against time is usually a luxury tool for high income earners.

The biggest underserved need for life insurance is not as an investment, but to provide for survivors. Too many have too little. I wanted to be able to take care of Wifeypoo whether or not I was there. I still have plans and they will be completed if I am here or not here. It is a comfort.

Last edited by Hudbone; 05/04/22 12:06 PM.
Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: Hudbone] #8590869 05/04/22 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Hudbone
If you utilize debt as a growth mechanism, life insurance should be strongly considered. Whole or universal life insurance should never ever be the sole investment. Life insurance as an investment or hedge against time is usually a luxury tool for high income earners.

The biggest underserved need for life insurance is not as an investment, but to provide for survivors. Too many have too little. I wanted to be able to take care of Wifeypoo whether or not I was there. I still have plans and they will be completed if I am here or not here. It is a comfort.


Well said and agree 100%.

Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: tr22johnson] #8590870 05/04/22 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tr22johnson
Very interesting read with many different opinions, which is what I was after-real world instances and experience's, but also take as tongue in cheek information. I trust my financial planner so far but just like Pitchfork and TLK-come from same profession and back ground but both have a difference in opinion on the subject. I also know that it will greatly vary case by case on individual's are hard to determine without all known details, but this gives me some ideas to bounce back off both my planner as well as estate attorney about possible future inherited implications.


If you get a whole life policy make sure it is structured in a way to not become a Modified Endowment Contract. You want to rub up against that line and not cross it to maintain all of the favorable tax benefits.

Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: tlk] #8590887 05/04/22 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by tlk
Originally Posted by Jgraider
Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Creekrunner
We have a second-to-die policy to, hopefully, help our kids "deal with it".

A great tool for the task.....just make sure the policy is owned by a Irrevocable Life Insurance Trust to shield the death benefit from being counted in your total estate value at death....


That was my point in saying that it does have it's place, but an investment isn't one of them. It has to be set up correctly so as not to create more problems.



no life insurance policy is a problem with taxes unless your estate is more than 24 million for a couple (as stated in my earlier response to you) - otherwise the proceeds are income and estate tax free even if you own the policy - No need for a life insurance trust unless your total estate value will exceed 24 million


Trump tax cuts end in three years assuming they aren’t repelled this year. In terms of estate planning I’d be preparing for worst case


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Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: Jgraider] #8590894 05/04/22 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Jgraider
Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by Hudbone
for the most part, having an estate tax problem is better than not having one. Especially true if life insurance is creating the' "issue".


Kind of my thoughts. Even then it can be used to offset some potential taxes


Obviously true, if it's set up right. If not, it will only enhance the problem. That's what estate planning experts are for, not a life insurance agent.


I don’t disagree, it’s an assortment of professionals. Not just wealth managers.

They all have their place, it’s about options at the table more so then a cingular direction. With that said estate planning lawyers can only devalue assets so much, eventually you have to invest to off set tax leverage. I’ve seen pretty creative evaluations of private LLC and Corps to get around potential estate tax issues, none that could be accomplished by wealth manager, but I’ve seen pretty creative wealth management strategies for planning that complement them well

The OP was only advised of one option, there are others that may be a better fit.


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Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: DocHorton] #8590899 05/04/22 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by DocHorton
Originally Posted by Hudbone
If you utilize debt as a growth mechanism, life insurance should be strongly considered. Whole or universal life insurance should never ever be the sole investment. Life insurance as an investment or hedge against time is usually a luxury tool for high income earners.

The biggest underserved need for life insurance is not as an investment, but to provide for survivors. Too many have too little. I wanted to be able to take care of Wifeypoo whether or not I was there. I still have plans and they will be completed if I am here or not here. It is a comfort.


Well said and agree 100%.


Yelp HUD nailed that one.


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Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: tr22johnson] #8591170 05/04/22 10:09 PM
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Hudbone is correct.

I have paid out many many life insurance claims over the years - I have seen where the surviving spouse/family was left enough to be financially secure. It is hard enough to lose a spouse but becomes even harder when they also have to worry about finances.

On the other side of the coin, I have also seen where the surviving spouse/family was not left with enough money and the aftermath of that is not pretty. IMO if you care about your family after you are gone (along with your income that is now gone) then take the time to evaluate how much life insurance they will need to live the life they were living while you were still alive - it is an important decision believe me


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Re: Whole Life as Long Term Investment Pro/Con's [Re: tr22johnson] #8591277 05/04/22 11:55 PM
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