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Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap #8564722 03/25/22 11:08 PM
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Proposition 2 in the Texas Republican primary would repeal property taxes in Texas and replace the tax revenue with a higher sales tax rate. It passed by 75 percent.

If you thought the Robin Hood law was bad, you are really going to hate repealing property taxes. The foxes in Austin will be in charge of all of the hen houses. By using the state sales tax to fund schools instead of school district property taxes, we run the distinct possibility of no longer having local school boards. Why would we need them? Austin could determine curricula, books and the hiring of teachers. The state could totally take over education.

Friends and neighbors, don't get me wrong. Eliminating any tax is a seductive idea. We are taxed too much at every level and should have lower taxes, less government and more liberty. But I believe it is necessary and fair to keep property taxes in the mix.

Let's take a quick look at the "root causes" of taxes. From potholes in city streets to a national standing army, from public schools to social safety nets, our local, state and federal taxes strengthen, improve and maintain our country, its infrastructure, our quality of life and (wait for it) our property and land values. We live on this dirt ball a mere moment in time, but land will outlive us all to the benefit of our heirs.

Those who favor Repeal the Property Tax (RPT) assert that a property tax is not fair. They claim a property owner is forced to pay property taxes, has no choice and therefore does not truly own his land.

First of all, no one is forced to own property. We don't have to buy it and if we are blessed to own land we can always sell it. And I've got some more news for you. You ain't gonna take it with you. We are all merely stewards of the land until we are put to rest under some of it.

RPT proposes replacing lost tax revenue, not with increased income taxes, but with increased sales taxes. They further argue that people can choose whether or not to purchase goods and pay the sales tax.

That may be true for a rich man who has discretionary income to buy luxury items or make investments, buy another home and more land. That land will benefit from improved infrastructure, good roads, good schools and law enforcement. That land will increase in value with the passage of time because of improvements in the infrastructure surrounding it and not because of the intrinsic value of its good earth. See where I'm going with this. Those of us blessed to be land owners should pay property taxes contributing to our local infrastructure.

Now let's take a look at another man. A man who is poor, has no property and has to spend all of his income simply to maintain a meager lifestyle in a shabby rental (owned by a rich man, a landlord). The poor man is the one who truly has no choice but to pay taxes. Every last penny of his expendable income is taxed when he earns it by the sweat of his brow and again when he spends it for necessities.

Henry George saw things that way. Who the blazes is Henry George, you ask. Little is remembered of this political economist today but 143 years ago he was one of the best known men in the country because of a book he wrote, one that he thought would be an obscure tome, Progress and Poverty. In it he advocated federal taxes on land values. Now I'm no social justice warrior, far from it, but if we could use a federal land value tax to eliminate the federal income tax, that may be an idea worth looking into.
https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...ngle-tax-could-combat-inequality/587197/

Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564746 03/26/22 12:15 AM
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First of all, no one is forced to own property. We don't have to buy it and if we are blessed to own land we can always sell it. And I've got some more news for you. You ain't gonna take it with you. We are all merely stewards of the land until we are put to rest under some of it.


You work or draw money from the Gubberment??

Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564747 03/26/22 12:18 AM
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What about wealthy people who rent and own no property? What about them?

They exist too you know.

Also, what about the people who are land rich and cash poor. Should they have to sell or lease their land if the taxes become a burden?

Eliminating property tax and increasing sales tax seems to be the most fair way


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Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564749 03/26/22 12:27 AM
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MrMadMac- do you own property?


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Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564751 03/26/22 12:30 AM
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I know a couple like that. Big beautiful ranches, and they make just enough of the wool and mohair to pay the shearers. But the counties are the really greedy ones.

Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564760 03/26/22 12:50 AM
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Remove the property tax and raise the sales tax, everybody pays sales tax, far fewer pay property tax.


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Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: HWY_MAN] #8564778 03/26/22 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by HWY_MAN
Remove the property tax and raise the sales tax, everybody pays sales tax, far fewer pay property tax.

This.Think everybody ought to have Skin in the Game. Even on Federal Income Tax.

Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564782 03/26/22 01:17 AM
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"That may be true for a rich man who has discretionary income to buy luxury items or make investments, buy another home and more land. That land will benefit from improved infrastructure, good roads, good schools and law enforcement. That land will increase in value with the passage of time because of improvements in the infrastructure surrounding it and not because of the intrinsic value of its good earth. See where I'm going with this. Those of us blessed to be land owners should pay property taxes contributing to our local infrastructure."

I am far from a rich man.
It wasn't really discretionary income that got me my land. I sacrificed time, money and a hell of a lot of effort to get it, keep it, and improve it.
I literally have increased the value of my property ten fold. It is extremely rural. All I want is a good gravel road. It is no better than it was when I bought the place almost 9 years ago. Increasing the value ten fold has increased the taxes ten fold. Plain and simple I am getting screwed. So to hell with your improved infrastructure. Not ever one time have I seen any type of law enforcement on my road, and damn sure not a fire department. So no I don't see where you are going. You are living in a dream world.

Everyone pays sales tax. And they can choose not to buy things.


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Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564805 03/26/22 01:41 AM
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Rich or poor, everyone pays sales tax. Rich man buys more sh**, therefore pays more taxes. Poor man buys less sh** and therefore pays less taxes. Sounds pretty fair to me. Beats the hell out of property owners paying all the school taxes while non property owner pay nothing.

Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564814 03/26/22 01:51 AM
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Raising the sales tax would also capture the illegal activity income from drug dealers, money launderers, etc. They don't pay any tax now but definitely spend a lot of money.

Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: Wool E. Booger] #8564817 03/26/22 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Wool E. Booger
Rich or poor, everyone pays sales tax. Rich man buys more sh**, therefore pays more taxes. Poor man buys less sh** and therefore pays less taxes. Sounds pretty fair to me. Beats the hell out of property owners paying all the school taxes while non property owner pay nothing.


Everybody pays property taxes. They may not write the check, but anybody who pays for a place to live is paying for property taxes.

Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: SherpaPhil] #8564822 03/26/22 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by SherpaPhil
Originally Posted by Wool E. Booger
Rich or poor, everyone pays sales tax. Rich man buys more sh**, therefore pays more taxes. Poor man buys less sh** and therefore pays less taxes. Sounds pretty fair to me. Beats the hell out of property owners paying all the school taxes while non property owner pay nothing.


Everybody pays property taxes. They may not write the check, but anybody who pays for a place to live is paying for property taxes.


You are leaving out the millions that are living in government housing. You are paying YOUR property taxes AND theirs.

How much tax did they pay for Coke, Cheetos and cigarettes?


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Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564824 03/26/22 02:02 AM
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Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564834 03/26/22 02:13 AM
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I don't like property taxes either but the numbers just don't add up. Sales taxes simply won't cut it

Quote
Even a cursory look at the numbers shows that
swapping property taxes for a higher sales tax is unrealistic.
In 2016, Texans paid $36 billion in state and local sales taxes. Property taxes totaled more than
$56 billion, far more than what a few more pennies added to the sales tax would raise.
In fact, the current state sales tax rate of 6.25 percent would have to almost quadruple to a
whopping 23 percent to wipe out the property tax, according to a 2012 analysis by the state
comptroller’s office. Add another 2 percent for current local taxes and you’re looking at a 25
percent sales tax rate — a quarter in tax on every dollar you spend!


https://ttara.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/TribTalk_SalesPropertyTaxSwapOpEd_2_5_18.pdf

Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: Paluxy] #8564843 03/26/22 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Paluxy
I don't like property taxes either but the numbers just don't add up. Sales taxes simply won't cut it

Quote
Even a cursory look at the numbers shows that
swapping property taxes for a higher sales tax is unrealistic.
In 2016, Texans paid $36 billion in state and local sales taxes. Property taxes totaled more than
$56 billion, far more than what a few more pennies added to the sales tax would raise.
In fact, the current state sales tax rate of 6.25 percent would have to almost quadruple to a
whopping 23 percent to wipe out the property tax, according to a 2012 analysis by the state
comptroller’s office. Add another 2 percent for current local taxes and you’re looking at a 25
percent sales tax rate — a quarter in tax on every dollar you spend!


https://ttara.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/TribTalk_SalesPropertyTaxSwapOpEd_2_5_18.pdf

At 25% people will travel across statelines for major purchases


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Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564844 03/26/22 02:27 AM
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Another consideration would be that If property taxes were eliminated folks would have a good bit more disposable income to make purchase and pay sales taxes...

Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564857 03/26/22 02:44 AM
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With the exception of my residence and the place on the Frio, I don’t pay my property taxes.

Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564902 03/26/22 04:52 AM
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I’ve often wondered this myself. Would it even out in the long run for someone like me (who owns a small amount of property)? Or, would I end up paying more every year to support the people with the million dollar ranches? It would be nice if someone came up with a program to help people figure out what this would look like in real life.

Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564906 03/26/22 05:00 AM
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I like being able to have a lot of control over what I pay in property taxes. I choose to live in an area with high taxes, in a more expensive home than I "need". If I chose to, I could downsize, move to another area, and significantly reduce my tax burden. I think it's great that folks who want to aggressively save, or who are living on a fixed income, or just don't want to pay high taxes, can do this. By contrast, most financially responsible people have a lot less control over what they pay in sales tax.

Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: Paluxy] #8564913 03/26/22 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Paluxy
I don't like property taxes either but the numbers just don't add up. Sales taxes simply won't cut it

Quote
Even a cursory look at the numbers shows that
swapping property taxes for a higher sales tax is unrealistic.
In 2016, Texans paid $36 billion in state and local sales taxes. Property taxes totaled more than
$56 billion, far more than what a few more pennies added to the sales tax would raise.
In fact, the current state sales tax rate of 6.25 percent would have to almost quadruple to a
whopping 23 percent to wipe out the property tax, according to a 2012 analysis by the state
comptroller’s office. Add another 2 percent for current local taxes and you’re looking at a 25
percent sales tax rate — a quarter in tax on every dollar you spend!


https://ttara.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/TribTalk_SalesPropertyTaxSwapOpEd_2_5_18.pdf


Those numbers don't seem to add up. If 6.25% generated $36B, then 16% would generate $92B.

Personally I think a combination of raising sales tax to like 9% and dropping property taxes would work.

We gotta remember, if someone makes $75k a year then they are probably only paying sales tax on what...$20k of that? Maybe even a lot less since majority is housing, auto, insurance, income tax, savings, gasoline, etc.

Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564925 03/26/22 10:05 AM
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Quote
Even a cursory look at the numbers shows that
swapping property taxes for a higher sales tax is unrealistic.
In 2016, Texans paid $36 billion in state and local sales taxes. Property taxes totaled more than
$56 billion, far more than what a few more pennies added to the sales tax would raise.
In fact, the current state sales tax rate of 6.25 percent would have to almost quadruple to a
whopping 23 percent to wipe out the property tax, according to a 2012 analysis by the state
comptroller’s office.





The minimum combined 2022 sales tax rate for Price, Texas is 8.25%. This is the total of state, county and city sales tax rates. The Texas sales tax rate is currently 6.25%.


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Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564945 03/26/22 11:57 AM
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I don't have a problem with property taxes per se. The problem I have is basing them on current appraisals. Property taxes should be based on the purchase price plus a COLA adjustment. If you give local governments and school districts 10% more money every year they will find a way to spend it. I feel for people that escrow. With insurance and property taxes going up they are going to see big increases in monthly payments and will probably be caught off guard.


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Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564950 03/26/22 12:02 PM
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The OP sounds as if he needs to go back to tff


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Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: MrMadMac] #8564964 03/26/22 12:18 PM
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Did we ever find out if MMM actually owns any land?

Re: Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap [Re: flintknapper] #8564965 03/26/22 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by flintknapper
Quote
Even a cursory look at the numbers shows that
swapping property taxes for a higher sales tax is unrealistic.
In 2016, Texans paid $36 billion in state and local sales taxes. Property taxes totaled more than
$56 billion, far more than what a few more pennies added to the sales tax would raise.
In fact, the current state sales tax rate of 6.25 percent would have to almost quadruple to a
whopping 23 percent to wipe out the property tax, according to a 2012 analysis by the state
comptroller’s office.





The minimum combined 2022 sales tax rate for Price, Texas is 8.25%. This is the total of state, county and city sales tax rates. The Texas sales tax rate is currently 6.25%.


Yep. and
Quote
Add another 2 percent for current local taxes and you’re looking at a 25
percent sales tax rate — a quarter in tax on every dollar you spend!

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