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Re: Old timers Input [Re: PigMoney] #8477822 12/16/21 08:45 PM
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Friend from school has a long time family place in montague county. Been going up there since the mid 70’s. Only hogs back then were the free ranger’s from the old timers next place over. He had a field of old cars and trucks around his place. When we would stop in to visit with him sometimes the vehicles would start moving and squeaking seemingly all on their own. Hogs liked to scratch on the bumpers. Those vehicles were rustbuckets with some showroom shiny bumpers. No feral hogs then and rare to see a deer or deer sign. We hunted squirrels and rabbits and the occasional coyote back then. .410 or a trusty nylon 66. Hogs started showing up mid to late 80’s there in the east part of the county. We have a place now in the far west of the county. Hogs showed up there around 2005. Not as thick there as some have them. A few boars are usually around plus a sounder passing through once or twice a week.

Re: Old timers Input [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8478298 12/17/21 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Originally Posted by yotehater
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Quote
Now there are millions of them with that European influence.


Without genetic testing or doing some advanced craniometrics, determining which hogs are just feral and which are hybrids with the few European wild boar that were brought in is very speculative. Understand that all our hogs have "European influence" as they are all the exact same species, Sus scrofa. The influence of European wild boar just dates back a little farther in some.

There are a lot of traits folks like to use to claim that a hog is a hybrid (coloration, tail curl, bifurcated guard hairs, nose length, straight ears, razor back, etc.), but last I checked, none of such traits were actually diagnostic and have counterparts in domestic stock.


You're the expert.
http://www.tsusinvasives.org/home/database/sus-scrofa
European wild hogs have several distinguishing characteristics that set them apart from domestic or feral hogs. Among these are brown to blackish brown color, with grizzled guard hairs, a mane of hair (8-16 cm long) running dorsally from the neck to the rump, a straight heavily tufted tail, and ears covered with hair. Characteristics of feral hogs are varied, depending upon the breed of the ancestral stock. European wild hogs and feral hogs interbreed readily, with traits of European wild hogs apparently being dominant.


And the bold case is the problem here. There are a variety of blackish and brownish domestic hog breeds, so obviously color isn't going to set aside a hog as being a Eurasion Wild Boar recent decent. For example, mulefoots, Durocs, Choctaws, Black Iberians, etc. can all be black.

Ears covered in hair? LOL. A lost of domestic hogs have ears covered in hair.

Straight tales? Several breeds of domestic pigs have straight tales including mulefoot pigs, Belarus Black Pied Pigs, some Asian variants. https://bestfarmanimals.com/why-do-...thing-you-need-to-know-about-pigs-tails/ https://www.livestockoftheworld.com...85&SpeciesID=12&Screenwidth=1200

Originally Posted by yotehater
Interesting read.
https://fishgame.com/2014/09/east-texas-feral-hog-origins-fascinating/

There are however a good number of hogs particularly in areas of Central and south-Central Texas that have a lot of characteristics of Russians with some looking almost as if they were captured in the Black Forest of Germany.

According to officials with the Georgia Department of Natural Resources, “This hog usually has longer legs, a larger head and a longer, flatter snout.[b] Eurasian piglets are reddish brown with black longitudinal stripes.
As the animals mature, the stripes disappear and their color changes to gray grizzled or black. Eurasian hogs generally have longer guard hair and a more distinct mane of guard hair running from the neck to the base of the tail than the domestic hog.”
[/b]


There are breeds of domestic hogs that have piglets with longitudinal stripes that disappear with age as well, such as the American Mini Pig https://americanminipigassociation....n-mini-pig-standard-colors-and-patterns/

Longer legs? Iberians have these along with longer snouts. https://www.thepigsite.com/breeds/iberian

The point here is that just because something has 'traits' does not mean that they are taphonomically diagnostic traits. There are a lot of wild boar 'traits' present in domestic hogs. So when you talk about "European influence" (versus domestic) because they possess a trait or two, that is hard to justify. You find a hog with all the traits, and yeah, you might be onto something, but we don't seem to have millions of hogs running around with all the traits.






Well then, American Mini Pig genetics are freakin' everywhere. LOL! We can just agree to disagree then. Your reasoning is against biologists and professionals. Some even consider the feral hog a totally different species. When Aisan pigs were brought to Europe, the Aisan genetics disappeared in 95% of the offspring after exposure to the European genetics. Just as our swine have. I know you see a kill of pigs but you need to open your eyes a bit more. These things are not loose domestics breeding in the wild.


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Re: Old timers Input [Re: SouthWestIron] #8478609 12/17/21 05:24 PM
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While there may be some so-called Russian characteristics in wild pigs, most of them do seem to be descendants of domestic stock. In areas I've hunted, there were either historical 'free-range' hog farms, or cases of domestic escapees.


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Re: Old timers Input [Re: SouthWestIron] #8478611 12/17/21 05:31 PM
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I'm just glad we found something new to argue about. nidea

I've seen striped piglets on this place.


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Re: Old timers Input [Re: Creekrunner] #8479256 12/18/21 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Creekrunner
I'm just glad we found something new to argue about. nidea

I've seen striped piglets on this place.



I have tons of striped piglets. It can not be used (by itself) as a diagnostic tool for a Russian/Eurasian influence.

The sudden rise of feral hogs in East Texas began in the Mid 80's. Prior to that there were always 'Pineywoods Rooters' a very different looking hog than you typically see today. They were not numerous and not widely spread but have been around for many, many years. Areas of South Texas always had a population of pigs as well, mostly around the Rio Grande.

One area around Austin (Volente on Lake Travis) had a small herd of feral pigs as early as the late 60's. But I don't recall hogs being anywhere else in Central Texas until about the 90's.

Someone blamed Corn Feeders for the spread of feral hogs. Well....most places corn feeders have been around in one form or another for close to 50 years. And while it provides an additional food source for pigs I don't see it being the 'reason' for their spread.

I can tell you one source of their rapid spread FOR SURE and that is Hog Doggers. They went to great lengths in the 80's and 90's to transport hogs to places they never existed before. All in the interest of their 'sport'. Then on some properties it was a 'novel' thing to have hogs to hunt (year 'round) so landowners/hunters were pleased (at first) to have hogs. Most landowners are singing a different tune now.


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Re: Old timers Input [Re: SouthWestIron] #8479364 12/18/21 02:06 PM
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People hunted feral hogs in East Texas in the 1800s and they were also reported in the Rio Grande valley in the early 1900s.
https://www.gameandfishmag.com/editorial/history-of-feral-hogs/191026

No doubt there were more in a lot of places due to free ranging of hogs.


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Re: Old timers Input [Re: SouthWestIron] #8479700 12/18/21 09:25 PM
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I enjoy all the information from all of you. Don't think we are really arguing just more of a interchange of information. In my area I see some pigs that look very close to escaped domestics. But then I will also see some that to me resemble those big boars you see in Europe and other places. Shot a big sow that I posted below a few weeks back that to me really looked like a domesticated pig. She had a heck of a fat content as well and I'm kicking myself for not making some bacon with her. So I guess there is just a huge variety out there. I guess we can say genetic diversity sure is evident in feral hogs.

Re: Old timers Input [Re: SouthWestIron] #8479722 12/18/21 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthWestIron
I enjoy all the information from all of you. Don't think we are really arguing just more of a interchange of information. In my area I see some pigs that look very close to escaped domestics. But then I will also see some that to me resemble those big boars you see in Europe and other places. Shot a big sow that I posted below a few weeks back that to me really looked like a domesticated pig. She had a heck of a fat content as well and I'm kicking myself for not making some bacon with her. So I guess there is just a huge variety out there. I guess we can say genetic diversity sure is evident in feral hogs.


No question about it....but in my area (Deep East Texas) there is clearly a change in the average body shape of the hogs we see and how they act than from many years past.

Particularly the Boars. As little as 30 years ago....nearly every Boar Hog (regardless the color) looked more the one pictured below:

[Linked Image]


Going back farther than that (35-40 yrs ago and before) we only had what was colloquially referred to as a 'Pineywoods Rooters'. They (Boars) virtually all had long hair, were tall, athletic looking animals with very large heads, long snouts. Distinctly heavier in the front than in the back.

They also did not 'run' away so quickly (if at all) like the pigs we have here today. Perhaps why we don't really have them anymore. Back then....a Boar Hog encountered in the woods (or crossing a pasture) was something you wanted to give it's space. Not unlike a bull in a pasture.

Just stop, don't draw its attention and let it go its way. Because it was about 50/50 whether the boar (knowing you were there) would just keep going or bristle up and come your way. But certainly NOT run off. Walk away....yes, run, no.

The average boar we have now is blocky. Not uniformly...some are longer than others with their weight distributed differently....but nearly all are markedly different from what we used to have around here.

Last edited by flintknapper; 12/18/21 09:56 PM.

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Re: Old timers Input [Re: SouthWestIron] #8481464 12/20/21 03:09 PM
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I hunted large corporate leases near Alice and Cotulla (100,000 acres or so) in the early 80’s. Never once saw a feral hog. In the late 80’s that changed, and hogs were everywhere. As for hog types, they all looked about the same to me, except for one time. That one time, I saw movement in the distance and grabbed the binocs. Coming down a hill, heading in my direction, was a black hog like nothing I had ever seen. Not fat looking, but more rangy and lean, with amazing tusks and a ridge of hair standing up along the spine. I thought he’d come close and I’d get a shot, but I never saw him again. He looked like some sort of ‘battle hog’ and was sort of scary looking.


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Re: Old timers Input [Re: 603Country] #8481516 12/20/21 03:54 PM
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To add some County by County census data to this interesting discussion...see the Feral Hog History on SE US Coop study charts 1982 & then the one from 2019 from the link to almost 37 year period study below.
As everyone on this forum know firsthand...here is no doubt that feral hog population has grown into a major statewide problem.
As a N TX property owner...I get daily reminders!

When I lived in the Houston area in the 70's... there were very few sightings in the Houston area Duck and Goose flyways...you had to go into East and to Central/South TX to encounter the pests.
Now as the 2019 map shows...the entire state of Texas is infested.

[img]https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/resources/pests-diseases/feral-swine/sa-fs-history[/img]

Last edited by Rche; 12/20/21 04:49 PM.

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Re: Old timers Input [Re: Rche] #8483323 12/22/21 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Rche
To add some County by County census data to this interesting discussion...see the Feral Hog History on SE US Coop study charts 1982 & then the one from 2019 from the link to almost 37 year period study below.
As everyone on this forum know firsthand...here is no doubt that feral hog population has grown into a major statewide problem.
As a N TX property owner...I get daily reminders!

When I lived in the Houstnon area in the 70's... there were very few sightings in the Houston area Duck and Goose flyways...you had to go into East and to Central/South TX to encounter the pests.
Now as the 2019 map shows...the entire state of Texas is infested.

[img]https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/resources/pests-diseases/feral-swine/sa-fs-history[/img]


Thanks for that Rche! Crazy how there are those "island" counties up north that have them. Must have been some transporting going on.

Last edited by SouthWestIron; 12/22/21 02:17 AM.
Re: Old timers Input [Re: SouthWestIron] #8483463 12/22/21 05:36 AM
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70s-80s we never saw pigs in Dekalb, now that’s all you see.


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Re: Old timers Input [Re: SouthWestIron] #8483864 12/22/21 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthWestIron
Thanks for that Rche! Crazy how there are those "island" counties up north that have them. Must have been some transporting going on.


There is likely some of that, maybe a LOT. There is also the issue of reporting standards. There are probably lots of places where feral hogs get seen and nobody reports them. It was on that premise several decades ago that a Wildlife and Fisheries student at Texas A&M was able to attain several fishing location records (for given drainages usually because there were no previous records recorded in them) by catching fish from a given drainage, identifying them, and then checking them against known records to see if he had something new. Often times, the locals knew what was there, but nobody ever bothered to get the information reported. A lot were for typically non-game species that nobody really cares about, but this guy got dozens attributed to his name.

When you think about it, if somebody did see a feral hog in the 50s or 60s, would they think, "That is an extremely destructive pest and something needs to be done about it" or would they think "Huh, somebody lost a hog" and not give it another thought?

My point is that a lot of those 'islands' may be locations of transported hogs, as you indicated and is definitely known to happen, but some may be the result of great awareness and reporting. Also, there are still plenty of pig farms and hogs do sometimes escape. New populations of hogs can come about through this process.

That one isolated island up in Minnesota? Those are feral hogs coming down from Canada. Now isn't that something interesting? People think that the cold is what keeps feral hogs from moving north and maybe it is slowing them down, but we may have feral hogs that move down from the north.


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Re: Old timers Input [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8483900 12/22/21 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Originally Posted by SouthWestIron
Thanks for that Rche! Crazy how there are those "island" counties up north that have them. Must have been some transporting going on.


That one isolated island up in Minnesota? Those are feral hogs coming down from Canada. Now isn't that something interesting? People think that the cold is what keeps feral hogs from moving north and maybe it is slowing them down, but we may have feral hogs that move down from the north.


Just what we need.....eh?

Being 'flanked' by hog coming down from the North while we are battling their spread from the South.


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Re: Old timers Input [Re: SouthWestIron] #8484019 12/22/21 09:30 PM
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I killed my first deer in 1969 but I had never seen a feral hog until about 81 or 82. There was a high fence place about 50 miles west of Ft Worth that had brought some in thinking they would be fun to hunt. Of course it didn't take long for the population to get out of control and they were almost giving away hunts to get rid of those things. I saw my first free range hog in the mid 90's.


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Re: Old timers Input [Re: Texan Til I Die] #8484144 12/22/21 11:43 PM
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[quote=Texan Til I Die I killed my first deer in 1969but I had never seen a feral hog until about 81 or 82. There was a high fence place about 50 miles west of Ft Worth that had brought some in thinking they would be fun to hunt. Of course it didn't take long for the population to get out of control and they were almost giving away hunts to get rid of those things. I saw my first free range hog in the mid 90's. [/quote]

Same for me. First Deer (buck) in November 1969 (Goldthwaite, TX). No hogs back then....but they are everywhere now.

Last edited by flintknapper; 12/22/21 11:44 PM.

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Re: Old timers Input [Re: SouthWestIron] #8484253 12/23/21 01:29 AM
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In the mid 70s we hunted a number of leases from Edwards Co. down into south Tx and over east as Beeville. Saw plenty of Javalina but I can’t recall coming across a feral Hog until the mid 80s. Nowadays it seems like they’re everywhere.

Re: Old timers Input [Re: SouthWestIron] #8484818 12/23/21 03:47 PM
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Lived halfway between Lockhart and Bastrop all of my life.
My parents and lots of neighbors raised pigs starting in the mid 60's.
In 1972, there were 9 pretty large pig farms within just 7 miles of here.
I'm sure a few managed to escape and turn feral.
All of those Mom and Pop pig farms are closed now.

I first started seeing feral domestics in numbers in 1983 and light rooting here and there, mostly in locations that we fed hay to the cattle in winter.
We knew it was pigs doing the rooting from raising them.
There were a few scruffy, bulldog looking ones we called Russian's.
Me, my sons, other family members and a bunch of neighbors started hunting and trapping them.
In the 90's everybody carried their rifle (hey, this is TEXAS!) and shot or shot at every pig they saw.
By about 2005 the pressure caused the pigs to go nocturnal so hunting got harder but trapping went on.
Live daytime sightings became more and more scarce but they still showed up after dark on game cameras and sporadic rooting sessions, rarely if ever in the same spot.

Fast forward to today.....
The country is becoming the suburbs.
Subdivisions, houses, more and more dogs, etc. are pushing them into pockets.
Luckily, my property backs up to a few thousand acres but I see the edges of that being sold off in small chunks and more and more subdivisions popping up every day, closer and closer.
I averaged 61 pigs a year from mid 80's until a few years ago and always got at least 14 a year.
I got 7 last year, all bigger, mostly solo boars. This year, I'm up to 2 and sightings at the feeder cams are few and far between.

Edit: We do generally feed year around, just turn amount down off deer season.

Last edited by Vern1; 12/23/21 03:50 PM.

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Re: Old timers Input [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8486897 12/26/21 04:39 AM
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My grandfather in Leon county ran hogs like people run cattle today. We still have hog wire fencing in a few places.
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Re: Old timers Input [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8488354 12/28/21 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Originally Posted by SouthWestIron
Thanks for that Rche! Crazy how there are those "island" counties up north that have them. Must have been some transporting going on.


There is likely some of that, maybe a LOT. There is also the issue of reporting standards. There are probably lots of places where feral hogs get seen and nobody reports them. It was on that premise several decades ago that a Wildlife and Fisheries student at Texas A&M was able to attain several fishing location records (for given drainages usually because there were no previous records recorded in them) by catching fish from a given drainage, identifying them, and then checking them against known records to see if he had something new. Often times, the locals knew what was there, but nobody ever bothered to get the information reported. A lot were for typically non-game species that nobody really cares about, but this guy got dozens attributed to his name.

When you think about it, if somebody did see a feral hog in the 50s or 60s, would they think, "That is an extremely destructive pest and something needs to be done about it" or would they think "Huh, somebody lost a hog" and not give it another thought?

My point is that a lot of those 'islands' may be locations of transported hogs, as you indicated and is definitely known to happen, but some may be the result of great awareness and reporting. Also, there are still plenty of pig farms and hogs do sometimes escape. New populations of hogs can come about through this process.

That one isolated island up in Minnesota? Those are feral hogs coming down from Canada. Now isn't that something interesting? People think that the cold is what keeps feral hogs from moving north and maybe it is slowing them down, but we may have feral hogs that move down from the north.


Well thought out and makes really good sense. Thanks for sharing that. Reminded me of when I found a full grown beaver in the sourthern most tip of New Mexico in farm canal. Nobody believed me but I know what I saw.

Last edited by SouthWestIron; 12/28/21 02:50 AM.
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