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Problems with the Country #8445528 11/11/21 04:11 PM
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This may be the wrong place and wrong subject however am I the only one that finds it funny that in the "Richest Country in the World" where guns and the accessories are held in high regard that not one US ammo manufacture hasn't flooded the market with ammo after the last two years. I know Covid, lack of labor, supply, chain. In a country like ours seems one company would say build more production hire more people, when you've got a public begging for ammo. The funny thing is ammo is one of the few things still made in the USA.


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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: bholt] #8445549 11/11/21 04:29 PM
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Very little powder is manufactured in the US any longer...thank our wonderful EPA for that.

To specifically answer your question...I don't find it funny I find it extremely aggravating and maddening.


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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: bholt] #8445564 11/11/21 04:51 PM
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It takes 4 components to make ammo- primer, powder, brass, and bullet. All 4 items are needed to assemble a loaded round. Getting all 4 of those on hand to "flood the market" would be near impossible. I have been waiting on some components for over a year to get in. I finally got in 7000 pieces of 6.5 PRC brass to make ammo. I've been waiting 11 months!! Primers are non-existent. Brass is in very short supply. Some bullets are not even available. Powder has been hit and miss.

However, I passed on a deal for 100,000 pieces of 9mm brass and bullets to make last year. The pricing of the brass and bullets were so high that I would have had to sell 9mm ammo made with low end materials about $88 per 100 rounds. It was not worth it. There are some suppliers that are driving prices very high.

I also know of multiple suppliers who have closed their business due to lack of items to sell. That's the sad part.

I've been in business since 2007, and I've never seen anything like this demand and supply, along with the crazy pricing.

I buy $100,000+ of Norma brass a year. Norma has cancelled their "bulk" pricing where you can buy in 1000 count boxes of brass. They discontinued their bulk program and are going to 50 count Shooter Packs now. The pricing for these 50 count shooter packs are now over double the cost of the previous bulk pricing. I think we will be seeing this more from other suppliers soon. It is driving up ammo prices in the process.


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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: bholt] #8445572 11/11/21 05:04 PM
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You can't ignore the basic rules that govern running a business in a free market economy. One of the first rules is that production cannot fall too far outside of demand or else you lose money on product you cannot sell. Or to put it another way, sales must always been able to cover production costs. That's exactly what happened when Trump was surprisingly elected to office. Ammo makers had ramped up production before the election in anticipation of him loosing, thinking that a win by Hillary would result in a very high demand for ammo. As we all know, demand fell like a rock when Trump won and the ammo makers were forced to cut production rather than lose money by letting stockpiles grow larger.

Having paid the price for making the wrong decision earlier, ammo makers took a wait and see approach with the last election. The Biden win, combined with the impact that COVID had on production capabilities resulted in low stockpiles at a time when demand skyrocketed.

Last edited by Texas Dan; 11/11/21 05:25 PM.

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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: bholt] #8445587 11/11/21 05:29 PM
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While it is very easy to hate the EPA, sometimes I think too many of us ignore what big business would do to our country if it were allowed to do whatever was profitable.


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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: ChadTRG42] #8445625 11/11/21 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ChadTRG42
I also know of multiple suppliers who have closed their business due to lack of items to sell. That's the sad part.

I think this is what a lot of folks miss. Folks whine & complain about xyz charging 5 times the old price, saying, "they can choke on it before I pay that". A small business owner trading guns and ammo is not making a lot to begin with, take away the supply and they have little to sell. That means their income is near zero. I'd bet the whiners still have income and food in the bellies of their kids.

Last edited by garyrapp55; 11/11/21 06:15 PM.
Re: Problems with the Country [Re: bholt] #8445654 11/11/21 06:51 PM
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I know one thing, Hornady is going to come out of this owning a much larger share of the market. They seem to be the only one putting out stuff on any kind of regular basis, and "regular" is definitely a relative term.


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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: psycho0819] #8445687 11/11/21 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by psycho0819
I know one thing, Hornady is going to come out of this owning a much larger share of the market. They seem to be the only one putting out stuff on any kind of regular basis, and "regular" is definitely a relative term.

Hornady is a good company and well run business, so I would have to agree. Pretty much nothing would surprise me when it comes to Hornady's ability to continue to grow and take market share. I wouldn't even be surprised if one day we all woke up and saw Hornady branded primers hitting the market and actually being available. Out of all the component manufacturers, Hornady has always maintained a solid position and shown a clear ability to stay ahead of the game.

Re: Problems with the Country [Re: bholt] #8445703 11/11/21 07:42 PM
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Anyone know what is different about Hornady than the others? Do they have more domestic production Etc.?

Years ago I was not a big fan of Hornady bullets, namely the interlocks, due to a series of far less than stellar results on game. Ive been hunting with the ELDx for several years now with nothing but good to say. Also seems like they are more on the cutting edge of what is in demand and like said above in stock more than the others despite the situation at hand.


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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: bholt] #8445712 11/11/21 07:51 PM
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you can make arrows

they kill game just fine.... just ask the bowhunters

Re: Problems with the Country [Re: redchevy] #8445719 11/11/21 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by redchevy
While it is very easy to hate the EPA, sometimes I think too many of us ignore what big business would do to our country if it were allowed to do whatever was profitable.


Great point...the past 2 years have taught us we need a government entity to protect us. rolleyes

EPA needs shut down and disbanded and the sooner the better. They have single handedly forced a TON of businesses to leave the US for countries with much less environmental regulations. FYI - if the entire world isn't participating then any regulation is nothing more than a feel good effort and puts other countries at a distinct business advantage.

Examples - You know China is building coal fired energy plants right now? Another - pay attention this week what Belarus is threatening to do to Europe...it behooves Americans to be self sufficient and they are showing the world why. Meanwhile this joke of an administration is shutting down pipelines and giving those other countries even more power over us.

Pay attention...our government doesn't care about us and never will.


Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: Problems with the Country [Re: Texas Dan] #8445721 11/11/21 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
You can't ignore the basic rules that govern running a business in a free market economy. One of the first rules is that production cannot fall too far outside of demand or else you lose money on product you cannot sell. Or to put it another way, sales must always been able to cover production costs. That's exactly what happened when Trump was surprisingly elected to office. Ammo makers had ramped up production before the election in anticipation of him loosing, thinking that a win by Hillary would result in a very high demand for ammo. As we all know, demand fell like a rock when Trump won and the ammo makers were forced to cut production rather than lose money by letting stockpiles grow larger.

Having paid the price for making the wrong decision earlier, ammo makers took a wait and see approach with the last election. The Biden win, combined with the impact that COVID had on production capabilities resulted in low stockpiles at a time when demand skyrocketed.


Do you have a source for this information? I don't know of a single ammo or component manufacturer that have done anything but grow since your boy Obama was in office.


Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: Problems with the Country [Re: redchevy] #8445744 11/11/21 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by redchevy
While it is very easy to hate the EPA, sometimes I think too many of us ignore what big business would do to our country if it were allowed to do whatever was profitable.


What would big business do? Pay more to aquire talent? Kill off thier work force with toxic work envioment? Kill the entire US? Those days are gone, ambulance chaser only pray we could go back to the enviomental
Ignorance.

EPA is weaponized with idiots, when you try to sue and fine farmers for dust, you have lost your mission.


Its ok next 12 months you are going to truley see what the Progressive liberal EPA has done to America. You think inflation is bad now. Hold on, its going to get Worse, Better get christmas done this week. Then save every penny you have.

Some of the LARGEST mfg companies are only expecting 40-60 % of thier entire product order book for next 12 months.


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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: Judd] #8445746 11/11/21 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Judd
Originally Posted by Texas Dan
You can't ignore the basic rules that govern running a business in a free market economy. One of the first rules is that production cannot fall too far outside of demand or else you lose money on product you cannot sell. Or to put it another way, sales must always been able to cover production costs. That's exactly what happened when Trump was surprisingly elected to office. Ammo makers had ramped up production before the election in anticipation of him loosing, thinking that a win by Hillary would result in a very high demand for ammo. As we all know, demand fell like a rock when Trump won and the ammo makers were forced to cut production rather than lose money by letting stockpiles grow larger.

Having paid the price for making the wrong decision earlier, ammo makers took a wait and see approach with the last election. The Biden win, combined with the impact that COVID had on production capabilities resulted in low stockpiles at a time when demand skyrocketed.


Do you have a source for this information? I don't know of a single ammo or component manufacturer that have done anything but grow since your boy Obama was in office.


He cant phatom global supply chain. No point over stating the obvious


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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: bholt] #8445748 11/11/21 08:20 PM
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Im not a fan of the EPA so dont paint me like that. I also know that business will pizz down your back and tell you its raining till its too late.


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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: redchevy] #8445812 11/11/21 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by redchevy
Im not a fan of the EPA so dont paint me like that. I also know that business will pizz down your back and tell you its raining till its too late.


NP tactic. Write something dumb, get called out on the dumb, then play the victim.

EPA, just like every other government agency has grown into a giant. And over stepping its' bounds, putting more regulation on things they shouldn't touch at all. The things they were formed to oversee, they have gone way outside the lines of what they should be doing. As Judd said, they should be dismantled.


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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: J.G.] #8445821 11/11/21 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Originally Posted by redchevy
Im not a fan of the EPA so dont paint me like that. I also know that business will pizz down your back and tell you its raining till its too late.


NP tactic. Write something dumb, get called out on the dumb, then play the victim.

EPA, just like every other government agency has grown into a giant. And over stepping its' bounds, putting more regulation on things they shouldn't touch at all. The things they were formed to oversee, they have gone way outside the lines of what they should be doing. As Judd said, they should be dismantled.

Its not tactic, its not dumb.

It has been seen in history and would likely repeat itself. If you let people put money in their pocket by trashing the environment they will. Ive been on countless properties with illegal dumping etc. its nothing new and its not going anywhere.

Im not backpedling and im not changing my tune. I do not like the EPA, nor do I suggest letting the economic free market dictate what people can and cant dump on their properties into rivers etc. Im not a victim and im not playing one, im saying dont put BS in my mouth.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: Problems with the Country [Re: bholt] #8445842 11/11/21 10:53 PM
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I didn't put BS in your mouth...you defended the EPA. I called you on it...own it or crawfish, I don't care but fact of that matter is....you said what you said and no one put words in your mouth so don't twist this like I said something you didn't say because I didn't.

I will however own what I said and I meant it. This is the government our fore fathers warned us about.


Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: Problems with the Country [Re: bholt] #8445847 11/11/21 10:58 PM
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I said its easy to hate the EPA, do you disagree?

I also said that business will wreck whatever it can to turn a buck.

I did not defend the EPA. The only crawfish i will do is eating them. You can assume I meant something I did not all you want but it still wont make it true.


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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: bholt] #8445851 11/11/21 11:01 PM
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rofl


Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: bholt] #8445887 11/11/21 11:45 PM
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It is pretty funny the lengths some will go. Maybe you should read you sig line Judd.


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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: redchevy] #8445900 11/12/21 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by redchevy
Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Originally Posted by redchevy
Im not a fan of the EPA so dont paint me like that. I also know that business will pizz down your back and tell you its raining till its too late.


NP tactic. Write something dumb, get called out on the dumb, then play the victim.

EPA, just like every other government agency has grown into a giant. And over stepping its' bounds, putting more regulation on things they shouldn't touch at all. The things they were formed to oversee, they have gone way outside the lines of what they should be doing. As Judd said, they should be dismantled.

Its not tactic, its not dumb.

It has been seen in history and would likely repeat itself. If you let people put money in their pocket by trashing the environment they will. Ive been on countless properties with illegal dumping etc. its nothing new and its not going anywhere.

Im not backpedling and im not changing my tune. I do not like the EPA, nor do I suggest letting the economic free market dictate what people can and cant dump on their properties into rivers etc. Im not a victim and im not playing one, im saying dont put BS in my mouth.


Copper and Tin make brass. Both have to be mined.
Lead makes bullets, it has to be mined.
Aluminum makes primer cups and anvils, it has to be mined.

Do all four elements NOT exist in the lower 48?

I bet they do, and I bet the EPA makes it prohibitive to mine here. Which puts us into a global market. We still need the elements, they still get mined. But the other countries that mine them, do not have a U.S. EPA.

You didn't read my previous words. They have become too large, and too strict. And here we are, in this predicament.


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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: J.G.] #8445937 11/12/21 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Originally Posted by redchevy
Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Originally Posted by redchevy
Im not a fan of the EPA so dont paint me like that. I also know that business will pizz down your back and tell you its raining till its too late.


NP tactic. Write something dumb, get called out on the dumb, then play the victim.

EPA, just like every other government agency has grown into a giant. And over stepping its' bounds, putting more regulation on things they shouldn't touch at all. The things they were formed to oversee, they have gone way outside the lines of what they should be doing. As Judd said, they should be dismantled.

Its not tactic, its not dumb.

It has been seen in history and would likely repeat itself. If you let people put money in their pocket by trashing the environment they will. Ive been on countless properties with illegal dumping etc. its nothing new and its not going anywhere.

Im not backpedling and im not changing my tune. I do not like the EPA, nor do I suggest letting the economic free market dictate what people can and cant dump on their properties into rivers etc. Im not a victim and im not playing one, im saying dont put BS in my mouth.


Copper and Tin make brass. Both have to be mined.
Lead makes bullets, it has to be mined.
Aluminum makes primer cups and anvils, it has to be mined.

Do all four elements NOT exist in the lower 48?

I bet they do, and I bet the EPA makes it prohibitive to mine here. Which puts us into a global market. We still need the elements, they still get mined. But the other countries that mine them, do not have a U.S. EPA.

You didn't read my previous words. They have become too large, and too strict. And here we are, in this predicament.

I agree with you and lump in with that he junk that CARB pulls and its even worse. I did not see where you said that. Again I’m no fan boy of the EPA.


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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: redchevy] #8445973 11/12/21 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by redchevy
It is pretty funny the lengths some will go. Maybe you should read you sig line Judd.


Yeah, I know the old twist the line and story…I’m the bad guy here RC.


Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
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Re: Problems with the Country [Re: Judd] #8446232 11/12/21 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Judd
This is the government our fore fathers warned us about.

True, and it makes me sad for my kids and their generation. Our empire will fall just like all others in history. How fast it crumbles is really the only question left. On the bright side, it will fragment into smaller countries like the USSR did (yes, I know they were separate previously but were still under the universal red flag for decades). One of those fragments will look something like TX does now. When that happens, that generation will start over and it will be back in check, for a time. So, Judd, let me and my boy know when it's time to stand and fight, I might not be paying attention.

Funny how we start out bitching about ammo then go to politics and big dumb GOVT.

Last edited by garyrapp55; 11/12/21 01:34 PM.
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