texashuntingforum.com logo
Main Menu
Advertisement
Affiliates
Advertisement
Newest Members
Tom A, Mow81, WYOboy, RODS68CHEVY, Josephd19
70387 Registered Users
Top Posters(All Time)
dogcatcher 110,616
bill oxner 91,416
SnakeWrangler 63,907
stxranchman 59,968
Gravytrain 46,950
RKHarm24 44,585
rifleman 44,461
BMD 41,241
Forum Statistics
Forums46
Topics612,945
Posts11,368,981
Members85,387
Most Online19,184
Feb 5th, 2020
Print Thread
Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork #8429487 10/25/21 08:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 86
C
COFF (TFF) Offline OP
Outdoorsman
OP Offline
Outdoorsman
C
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 86
So I am borrowing my brother's suppressed rifle for an upcoming hunting trip. The suppressor is owned by a gun trust, and I am a trustee.

What all paperwork do I have to carry with me? Are TPWD game wardens interested in the suppressor documentation, or just the feds?

Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: COFF (TFF)] #8429506 10/25/21 08:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 4,474
K
krmitchell Offline
Extreme Tracker
Offline
Extreme Tracker
K
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 4,474
Any LEO can check for paperwork. A copy of the trust, tax stamps and form 4 is what I carry.

Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: COFF (TFF)] #8429570 10/25/21 09:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 14,187
6
68rustbucket Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
6
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 14,187
All I carry is a copy of the form 4 with stamp. Never been questioned, I’d assume it would be a federal guy asking questions.


Still looking for a S Texas quail lease spot.
Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: 68rustbucket] #8430105 10/26/21 10:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,052
D
Dodge_Rock Offline
Pro Tracker
Offline
Pro Tracker
D
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,052
Originally Posted by COFF (TFF)
So I am borrowing my brother's suppressed rifle for an upcoming hunting trip. The suppressor is owned by a gun trust, and I am a trustee.

What all paperwork do I have to carry with me? Are TPWD game wardens interested in the suppressor documentation, or just the feds?

Originally Posted by 68rustbucket
All I carry is a copy of the form 4 with stamp. Never been questioned, I’d assume it would be a federal guy asking questions.


If your not hunting on federal land & you're hunting in Texas, I wouldn't worry about it. Saying that, I have a pic of the stamp in my phone & copy of the trust/form in my truck, but I often drive through a US Wildlife Refuge.

Talk about a senseless law, I think suppressors should be mandatory & supplied with every firearm for sake of your hearing. Ringing in the ears is no fun.

Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: Dodge_Rock] #8430139 10/26/21 12:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 7,663
H
Herbie Hancock Offline
THF Trophy Hunter
Offline
THF Trophy Hunter
H
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 7,663
Originally Posted by Dodge_Rock
Originally Posted by COFF (TFF)
So I am borrowing my brother's suppressed rifle for an upcoming hunting trip. The suppressor is owned by a gun trust, and I am a trustee.

What all paperwork do I have to carry with me? Are TPWD game wardens interested in the suppressor documentation, or just the feds?

Originally Posted by 68rustbucket
All I carry is a copy of the form 4 with stamp. Never been questioned, I’d assume it would be a federal guy asking questions.


If your not hunting on federal land & you're hunting in Texas, I wouldn't worry about it. Saying that, I have a pic of the stamp in my phone & copy of the trust/form in my truck, but I often drive through a US Wildlife Refuge.

Talk about a senseless law, I think suppressors should be mandatory & supplied with every firearm for sake of your hearing. Ringing in the ears is no fun.


I forget what country in Europe that suppressors are only allowed to be used at gun ranges. I agree with your statement above.


It takes beer to make thirst worthwhile - J. Fred Schmidt

The internet is an I.Q. Test, people post their scores in the comment section.
Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: COFF (TFF)] #8430148 10/26/21 12:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 150
Inge0071 Offline
Woodsman
Offline
Woodsman
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 150
Originally Posted by COFF (TFF)
What all paperwork do I have to carry with me? Are TPWD game wardens interested in the suppressor documentation, or just the feds?


DPS checks, and some game wardens will also if it's not your land.

You need a photo of the Form 4, and the trustee identification page(s).

A note of caution: never assume you can add a trustee for an item transferred in after the new RP rules took effect.


Pro Deo et patria
Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: Inge0071] #8430267 10/26/21 02:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 17,634
J
Judd Online Confused
#1 Creedmoor Fan
Online Confused
#1 Creedmoor Fan
J
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 17,634
Originally Posted by Inge0071
A note of caution: never assume you can add a trustee for an item transferred in after the new RP rules took effect.


Please elaborate...not sure what you are meaning. I was under the impression trustees could be added/removed at will and I do realize a notary is involved in this action.

I carry a copy of my stamp. I bought my first almost 10 years ago...I've been asked one time from an overzealous power hungry range officer. FWIW - he didn't get to see my stamp but I was polite about it.


Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: Judd] #8430320 10/26/21 02:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 150
Inge0071 Offline
Woodsman
Offline
Woodsman
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 150
Originally Posted by Judd
Originally Posted by Inge0071
A note of caution: never assume you can add a trustee for an item transferred in after the new RP rules took effect.


I was under the impression trustees could be added/removed at will....


Prior to the 2016 FR, your understanding would be 100% accurate. Only one trustee needed to be fingerprinted, etc. for the trust to receive an NFA item. You could add/remove folks for the weekend if you wanted, with a simple handwritten note.

The new rule requires each trustee to be approved as a Responsible Person at the time a transfer occurs.

Some folks, including some attorneys, correctly state the FR technically still allows new trustees to be added after the trust receives a transfer. This is a public forum, so I won't go into theoretical uses for the interpretation. But that's risky, IMOP. Just like not getting an SBR stamp for your nifty 5.56 pistol.

The 2016 FR is currently under internal review, by bureaucrats that fundamentally hate Americans. With NFA items, if you've taken the time to do it right, why not err on the side of caution and assume you'll be second guessed if you're found in possession of an NFA item transferred after 2016, but for which you are not a RP.

Feel free to PM if needed.


Pro Deo et patria
Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: Inge0071] #8430355 10/26/21 03:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 17,634
J
Judd Online Confused
#1 Creedmoor Fan
Online Confused
#1 Creedmoor Fan
J
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 17,634
Originally Posted by Inge0071
Originally Posted by Judd
Originally Posted by Inge0071
A note of caution: never assume you can add a trustee for an item transferred in after the new RP rules took effect.


I was under the impression trustees could be added/removed at will....


Prior to the 2016 FR, your understanding would be 100% accurate. Only one trustee needed to be fingerprinted, etc. for the trust to receive an NFA item. You could add/remove folks for the weekend if you wanted, with a simple handwritten note.

The new rule requires each trustee to be approved as a Responsible Person at the time a transfer occurs.

Some folks, including some attorneys, correctly state the FR technically still allows new trustees to be added after the trust receives a transfer. This is a public forum, so I won't go into theoretical uses for the interpretation. But that's risky, IMOP. Just like not getting an SBR stamp for your nifty 5.56 pistol.

The 2016 FR is currently under internal review, by bureaucrats that fundamentally hate Americans. With NFA items, if you've taken the time to do it right, why not err on the side of caution and assume you'll be second guessed if you're found in possession of an NFA item transferred after 2016, but for which you are not a RP.

Feel free to PM if needed.


Thanks for clarifying...I agree with you...all trustees need to be approved. What I've not seen is any process or prevention of adding someone after the fact. You're playing the safe than sorry point of view and I get that.


Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: COFF (TFF)] #8430361 10/26/21 03:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,687
N
ntxtrapper Online Content
THF Trophy Hunter
Online Content
THF Trophy Hunter
N
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,687


"Whosoever is delighted in solitude, is either a wild beast or a god."

- Aristotle
Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: ntxtrapper] #8430376 10/26/21 04:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 150
Inge0071 Offline
Woodsman
Offline
Woodsman
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 150
Exactly the type of publicity that should be avoided.

One thing I learned in D.C. - these people hate normal Americans. Most are lazy and do not understand firearm mechanics. They do, however, take the time to surf the internet for ideas when additional rules would assist their political interest.

I almost got shot once because an aggressive local police officer didn't know machine guns were legal. I did get detained.

When it comes to NFA crap, my advice - as quaint as it may be - is to err on the side of caution and assume you'll have to pay an attorney if the USDA gets over zealous.

As an example, look at the verbiage millions of Americans relied on starting in '17 re braces:

[Linked Image]

The ATF said then it doesn't necessarily make you a felon if you happen to shoulder a pistol brace. But do you really want to risk it?

Attached Files Screenshot 2021-10-26 112410.png

Pro Deo et patria
Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: COFF (TFF)] #8430399 10/26/21 04:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 234
G
George S Offline
Woodsman
Offline
Woodsman
G
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 234
I carry a copy of the stamp with me, and it has my name on it (I am the Grantor). Keep a copy of the trustee page with your name on it with the stamp.

Gov. Abbott signed a '2A sanctuary' bill into law earlier this year which lessens the likelihood of a Texas LEO hassling you about a suppressor.


Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius
Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: Dodge_Rock] #8467125 12/05/21 04:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 862
H
huntingbig8 Offline
Tracker
Offline
Tracker
H
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 862
Originally Posted by Dodge_Rock
Originally Posted by COFF (TFF)
So I am borrowing my brother's suppressed rifle for an upcoming hunting trip. The suppressor is owned by a gun trust, and I am a trustee.

What all paperwork do I have to carry with me? Are TPWD game wardens interested in the suppressor documentation, or just the feds?

Originally Posted by 68rustbucket
All I carry is a copy of the form 4 with stamp. Never been questioned, I’d assume it would be a federal guy asking questions.


If your not hunting on federal land & you're hunting in Texas, I wouldn't worry about it. Saying that, I have a pic of the stamp in my phone & copy of the trust/form in my truck, but I often drive through a US Wildlife Refuge.

Talk about a senseless law, I think suppressors should be mandatory & supplied with every firearm for sake of your hearing. Ringing in the ears is no fun.

I don't even mind the cost of the stamp to keep the worthless bastards employed but the 11 month + wait that I'm currently at pisses me off, they should be OTC with the purchase of the stamp or once you've cleared NFA then OTC. I have purchased 11 of them and gotten them as soon as soon as 4 months and as long as 11+

Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: COFF (TFF)] #8473035 12/12/21 06:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 765
cwctx Offline
Tracker
Offline
Tracker
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 765
I have been shooting and carrying suppressed weapons for over 20 years. Almost all of my weapons are either suppressed internally (by John's Guns / Dark Horse Arms) or have a can and some are SBR's also (yes, double stamped!). I have never been questioned at a range or by a game warden, but I have been detained, briefly, by a couple of State Troopers in route to the lease. I handed them my DL and CHL and told them what I was carrying. Then I hand them the leather portfolio from the front seat with a copy of the trust (including the list of items and trustee ID page) and a copy of every form 4. There is also a small picture (6 per page) of every item. Both State Troopers began flipping through the stack and after a few pages, just handed it all back to me with a smile and I was on my way. I did get the speeding ticket both times. Better to have too much than to need a lawyer to get you out of a jam that could have been avoided. Now I have moved to a new house so I added the form 2320.20 for every item as well. It all fits nicely in a standard sized leather pouch from Office Depot and it is easy enough to keep with my range bag.

I have had trouble on a range once, kind of:
While at a range in North Fort Worth, I shot a few high velocity rounds through an integrally suppressed .308. HV rounds through a suppressor on a .30 cal weapon still make a pretty good noise from the bullet crack. Then I switched to subsonic rounds to see if a new 30mm scope had enough elevation adjustment to bring the slow bullets up to the target. After the first suppressed shot, the guy next to me called "MISFIRE" at the top of his lungs just as I squeezed the trigger on the second round. He was so surprised my gun didn't blow up and then realized it was not a bull barrel after all, but a really nice suppressor built into the gun. Turned out funny, but there was a bit of commotion as the range guys all started shutting down the firing line until they too realized what had happened.

"A Suppressor Is My Hearing Protection!"
cwc

Last edited by cwctx; 12/12/21 06:11 AM.

Veteran - NRA Life Member
I am a legal gun owner. I will not be shamed, bullied, taxed, regulated, or legislated into disarming.
Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: Inge0071] #8473050 12/12/21 06:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 853
T
Txhillbilly Offline
Tracker
Offline
Tracker
T
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 853
Originally Posted by Inge0071
Originally Posted by COFF (TFF)
What all paperwork do I have to carry with me? Are TPWD game wardens interested in the suppressor documentation, or just the feds?


DPS checks, and some game wardens will also if it's not your land.

You need a photo of the Form 4, and the trustee identification page(s).

A note of caution: never assume you can add a trustee for an item transferred in after the new RP rules took effect.


That is BS. You can add and remove as many people as you like on a Trust.
Photo's and Fingerprint's only come into play if & when you apply for a new item to be added into the Trust.
I've removed and added people to my Trust since the new rules, and they are 100% legal.

Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: George S] #8475053 12/14/21 04:13 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,091
CharlieCTx Offline
Extreme Tracker
Offline
Extreme Tracker
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,091
Originally Posted by George S
Gov. Abbott signed a '2A sanctuary' bill into law earlier this year which lessens the likelihood of a Texas LEO hassling you about a suppressor.


I believe that law applies only to suppressors made in TX.

Charlie


Kel-Tec RFB + Griffin Sportsman Ultra Light 300 + Pulsar Apex XQ-50
M&P-10 + AAC Cyclone
Remy 700 + Leupold VX3 3.5x10x50 CDS
Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: COFF (TFF)] #8475054 12/14/21 04:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 234
G
George S Offline
Woodsman
Offline
Woodsman
G
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 234
No, that's a different law.


Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius
Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: COFF (TFF)] #8475541 12/14/21 06:08 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,091
CharlieCTx Offline
Extreme Tracker
Offline
Extreme Tracker
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,091


Kel-Tec RFB + Griffin Sportsman Ultra Light 300 + Pulsar Apex XQ-50
M&P-10 + AAC Cyclone
Remy 700 + Leupold VX3 3.5x10x50 CDS
Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: COFF (TFF)] #8475554 12/14/21 06:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 234
G
George S Offline
Woodsman
Offline
Woodsman
G
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 234
Well, it's the same legislation but different subsection:
House Bill 957 (Oliverson/Springer) SubChapter C. repeals the criminal offense of possessing, manufacturing, transporting, or repairing a firearm silencer. SubChapter B. ensures that any firearm suppressor manufactured in Texas, and that remains in Texas, will not be subject to federal law or federal regulation.

Last edited by George S; 12/14/21 06:22 PM.

Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius
Re: Gun Trust/Suppressor Paperwork [Re: Txhillbilly] #8475601 12/14/21 07:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 230
Uncle Zeek Offline
Woodsman
Offline
Woodsman
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 230
Originally Posted by Txhillbilly
Originally Posted by Inge0071
Originally Posted by COFF (TFF)
What all paperwork do I have to carry with me? Are TPWD game wardens interested in the suppressor documentation, or just the feds?


DPS checks, and some game wardens will also if it's not your land.

You need a photo of the Form 4, and the trustee identification page(s).

A note of caution: never assume you can add a trustee for an item transferred in after the new RP rules took effect.


That is BS. You can add and remove as many people as you like on a Trust.
Photo's and Fingerprint's only come into play if & when you apply for a new item to be added into the Trust.
I've removed and added people to my Trust since the new rules, and they are 100% legal.


Agreed. When a trust is applying to ATF to make or transfer an NFA firearm, 27 CFR 479 requires that trust shall provide ATF Form 5320.23 for each "responsible person" (including identifying information, photos, fingerprints, etc.). This must be done every time that a transfer (or manufacture) takes place.

There is currently no requirement to notify ATF of any changes in the responsible persons on a trust after a tax stamp has been issued. Nor is there any procedure which I'm aware of.

It is true that in Proposed Regulation 41P, the ATF mentioned that it would like to require all responsible persons to obtain the government's approval before possessing or exercising any control over an NFA firearm. It was NOT part of the proposed rule, and it was NOT part of the final rule. However, it does telegraph's ATF's intentions for the future.


"Decency is not news; it is buried in the obituaries --but it is a force stronger than crime" ~ Robert A. Heinlein
190 Civic Circle, Suite 260, Lewisville, TX 75067
972-746-0758 mobile
zac@artimlegal.com
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

© 2004-2022 OUTDOOR SITES NETWORK all rights reserved USA and Worldwide
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3