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The Myth of the Culled Spike #8412789 10/10/21 02:59 PM
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A small spike will never be a good buck? We named this guy "Funky Ear" when he first showed up in January 2020.

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Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8412806 10/10/21 03:17 PM
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That’s pretty cool evidence

Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8412905 10/10/21 05:11 PM
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Its evidence that "once a spike, always a spike" isnt true but Im not sure what else it proves. This topic is extremely controversial and Im getting in and out early cause I wont have time to explore into this if it takes off like these culling threads usually do. That would be a very weak 3 year old on most places but every situation is different and why this topic is impossible to debate. Personally, I dont cull young deer but high intensity management places do. IT DEPENDS on too many things to be able to debate across a forum with very varied situations, goals, resources etc.


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Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8412963 10/10/21 05:37 PM
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That would be a very weak 3 year old on most places


Not trying to "prove" anything freerange. Just presenting an example of one deer's growth pattern. It's a pretty good 3 year old for our S.E. Louisiana pine plantation. It would be a year behind in the bottomlands along the Mississippi River, but still not a bad deer.


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Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8412998 10/10/21 06:01 PM
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Based on what I've read, it's not that a spike will always be a spike but that it will lag it's better peers for life.

I've also had TPWD biologists in East Texas tell me the the majority of those older bucks with tall, narrow racks were once very likely 1-1/2 year old spikes.

Last edited by Texas Dan; 10/10/21 06:05 PM.

Dan

Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8413029 10/10/21 06:19 PM
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There was a 3pt at the Mississippi State University Whitetail study area that was a small dink 3pt as a 1.5 year old at I think it was 7 years old he was a nontypical that scored 237.

One never knows for sure and deer in different areas will be larger than in other areas. Land usage and deer density change it as well. Around where I grew up and still have property in Mississippi in the late 70s to early 80s an average year old whitetail buck would weigh 140lbs live weight and a few bucks would reach 220 to 240 at maturity. The deer density was well below carrying capacity, and about ever field plantable in soy beans was planted in soybeans. Fast forward to now those bean fields are now pine trees and lots of the hardwoods have been replaced with pine and deer density is very close or above good carry capacity. The average 1.5 year old buck weighs about 100 lbs and in some areas less and is a spike or tiny 3 or 4 pt. Racks on 2.5 year olds are about what we would see back then on 1.5 year old deer and they are 3+ before getting to the weights they were at in the past at 1.5 years old.


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Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8413600 10/11/21 05:24 AM
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Need pics of him the first year in 2018 when he was a spike also. That buck looks like a 4 yr old in the last pic.


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Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8414089 10/11/21 04:26 PM
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Had one on our place years ago, we named him "gimp" because he had an injured front right leg and limped on it the first year. That first year he sported 6-7" tall spikes. The next year he was a small 6 point, nothing special. Then he disappeared for 2 years. On the next opener of bow season he walks out in front of a buddy who didn't recognize him because he was focused on the 18" inside spread, and putting an arrow in him. He sent me a pic right after the kill and I noticed the right front leg injury still visible, and verified he was in fact, the Gimp.

So yeah, once a spike does not mean always a spike. And yes, likely will always be a year behind. But none of that means they are inferior animals.


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Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8414095 10/11/21 04:33 PM
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It's funny how much 'science' most of those PhDs thought they knew about deer.


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Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8414113 10/11/21 04:49 PM
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I’ve seen spikes blow up and 1yr old 8pts be mediocre. I try not to pay too much attention until they are 2-3yrs and you have an idea of what they will actually become.

Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8414451 10/11/21 07:48 PM
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The pictures clearly prove that this spike is an inferior deer. I will continue to shoot them.

Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8414464 10/11/21 07:59 PM
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The Kerr Wildlife Study was about the most in depth study on spikes and, from memory, no one there ever said once a spike always a spike. Pretty sure the conclusion was they , as a group, the never caught up with their branched antlered brethren.

We can't even shoot a deer until its 3 1/2, so we take zero (as in none) spikes off our place. When this discussion gets going, we always get to hear about anecdotal evidence. Moxzygemba's big and I think original herd sire, Paco, was said to have been given to him in exchange for dental treatment when the deer was a spike. Cannot tell you the veracity behind that comment, but I do know the unbridled success of the Paco Deer Company. Whatever.

If you are fugly when you are young, pretty much gonna be that you are fugly when older. .

Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8414481 10/11/21 08:15 PM
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That deer looks older than 3 to me but if that’s a good one for you then great 👍, he would have died on his first first year if we would have seen him. I’d rather kill them than take a chance of them being a turd and passing on crappy genetics, more times than not spikes I’ve watched over the decades have been inferior. Is their the occasional freak, of course thr is but they die if I have a gun in my hands.

Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8414511 10/11/21 08:45 PM
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but if that’s a good one for you then great 👍


grin Well Ol Thumper, a year and a half doe is a good deer for me. grill (My wife always said I'm easy to please.) I hunt every weekend during our Nov 12 to Dec 31 season and see a dozen or so deer each weekend. I take two each season which is all the meat I need - usually one buck and one doe. But I sure enjoy sitting in the stand in the mornings and evenings and goofing around with the guys in the club campground at night.


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Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: Hudbone] #8414756 10/12/21 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Hudbone
The Kerr Wildlife Study was about the most in depth study on spikes and, from memory, no one there ever said once a spike always a spike. Pretty sure the conclusion was they , as a group, the never caught up with their branched antlered brethren.

We can't even shoot a deer until its 3 1/2, so we take zero (as in none) spikes off our place. When this discussion gets going, we always get to hear about anecdotal evidence. Moxzygemba's big and I think original herd sire, Paco, was said to have been given to him in exchange for dental treatment when the deer was a spike. Cannot tell you the veracity behind that comment, but I do know the unbridled success of the Paco Deer Company. Whatever.

If you are fugly when you are young, pretty much gonna be that you are fugly when older. .

Paco was a 6pt without brownies as a yearling. He was a 10pt at 2 and around low 140s. 160's at 3. Over 200 still at 9yrs old.


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Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: stxranchman] #8414774 10/12/21 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by stxranchman
Need pics of him the first year in 2018 when he was a spike also. That buck looks like a 4 yr old in the last pic.


Outside the historical context thought the person who took and posted did a great job. Great quality
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[Linked Image]


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Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: Hudbone] #8414780 10/12/21 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Hudbone
The Kerr Wildlife Study was about the most in depth study on spikes and, from memory, no one there ever said once a spike always a spike. Pretty sure the conclusion was they , as a group, the never caught up with their branched antlered brethren.

We can't even shoot a deer until its 3 1/2, so we take zero (as in none) spikes off our place. When this discussion gets going, we always get to hear about anecdotal evidence. Moxzygemba's big and I think original herd sire, Paco, was said to have been given to him in exchange for dental treatment when the deer was a spike. Cannot tell you the veracity behind that comment, but I do know the unbridled success of the Paco Deer Company. Whatever.

If you are fugly when you are young, pretty much gonna be that you are fugly when older. .


All they proved was when you breed a 200lb Stx breeder buck back to his offspring That Stx breeder buck offspring will be statistically larger then a hill country spike that was line breed back to hill country spring offspring offspring...

What's next, taking a stud 200” Kansas breeder buck and inbreeding him against inbreeding another Hill country spike. .

Regardless how you feel about spikes it wasn't a very far fight, they never cross bred does as a third group.


In reality not even 5% of the hunters on this forum have enough tag allocation to continually maintain a spike harvest that begins to be detrimental to the continued yearly viewing


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Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: Hudbone] #8414827 10/12/21 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Hudbone
The Kerr Wildlife Study was about the most in depth study on spikes and, from memory, no one there ever said once a spike always a spike. Pretty sure the conclusion was they , as a group, the never caught up with their branched antlered brethren.

We can't even shoot a deer until its 3 1/2, so we take zero (as in none) spikes off our place. When this discussion gets going, we always get to hear about anecdotal evidence. Moxzygemba's big and I think original herd sire, Paco, was said to have been given to him in exchange for dental treatment when the deer was a spike. Cannot tell you the veracity behind that comment, but I do know the unbridled success of the Paco Deer Company. Whatever.

If you are fugly when you are young, pretty much gonna be that you are fugly when older. .

Hard for a group of spikes taken from across the state of Texas to catch up to a group of fork antlered bucks all sired by a 160” 3.5 year old buck.

Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BOBO the Clown] #8414897 10/12/21 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by stxranchman
Need pics of him the first year in 2018 when he was a spike also. That buck looks like a 4 yr old in the last pic.


Outside the historical context thought the person who took and posted did a great job. Great quality
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

And your point is? That one buck that turns into a decent buck should dictate what I consider a cull or management buck? dunce Post up pics of the other 99 that still look like chit at 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or till they die of old age.


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Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8414973 10/12/21 06:14 AM
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I hunt on a place in duval county and the ranch record scored 197" and was a spike at 1 1/2. This is totally wild, native deer herd that just has protein. There have been multiple spikes on the place that have turned into 160"+ bucks and plenty of others ones who turned into mature culls.

Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8415094 10/12/21 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BayouGuy
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but if that’s a good one for you then great 👍


grin Well Ol Thumper, a year and a half doe is a good deer for me. grill (My wife always said I'm easy to please.) I hunt every weekend during our Nov 12 to Dec 31 season and see a dozen or so deer each weekend. I take two each season which is all the meat I need - usually one buck and one doe. But I sure enjoy sitting in the stand in the mornings and evenings and goofing around with the guys in the club campground at night.


I was in no way trying to be negative and I agree with you about the doe’s but we simply try to keep the narrow racked bucks we can’t shoot due to the AR’s off our property, we have MLD tags here at the house and we can remedy that problem but across most of our stuff we don’t and I give explicit instructions to the guys to shoot the spikes due to the high number of mature bucks that don’t qualify for the 13” rule. It’s probably not the best solution to the problem but it’s all we have to work with so it’s what we do. The AR’s have most definitely helped us here but it also hurts us in ways since we can’t take out the deer that need taken out after they start to grow those tall narrow racks. We simply have to work with what we have. I’m sure some of those spikes would grow into really great deer but the states tied our hands so we do what we can.


Last edited by Ol Thumper; 10/12/21 01:22 PM.
Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: stxranchman] #8415116 10/12/21 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by stxranchman
Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by stxranchman
Need pics of him the first year in 2018 when he was a spike also. That buck looks like a 4 yr old in the last pic.


Outside the historical context thought the person who took and posted did a great job. Great quality
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

And your point is? That one buck that turns into a decent buck should dictate what I consider a cull or management buck? dunce Post up pics of the other 99 that still look like chit at 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or till they die of old age.



No, just saying, some may want to make it the last part of a management plan, instead of the first. Everyone’s idea of big is different


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Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8415148 10/12/21 02:10 PM
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Last, not first is correct. Buck doe ratio has to be first in line.

Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: BayouGuy] #8415443 10/12/21 05:46 PM
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Doesn't it just make more sense to cull a deer that's lagging it's peers rather than waiting to see IF it will become an exception? Besides, with AR's in place, giving it a pass opens to door to having to watch it lag its peers for years if not for life when it never develops a legal spread.

Personally, I have no desire to hunt speed goat-looking deer.

Last edited by Texas Dan; 10/12/21 05:50 PM.

Dan

Re: The Myth of the Culled Spike [Re: Texas Dan] #8415467 10/12/21 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Doesn't it just make more sense to cull a deer that's lagging it's peers rather than waiting to see IF it will become an exception? Besides, with AR's in place, giving it a pass opens to door to having to watch it lag its peers for years if not for life when it never develops a legal spread.

Personally, I have no desire to hunt speed goat-looking deer.


You are right, all deer have same conception days and birth days with same maternal condition etc, there for its all about prepubescence genetic expression in the form of antler size, in which that antler size isn't actually based off other factors

You are also right there are no studies showing runts Or other individuals affected by maternal condition issues that didn't caught or pass peers at maturity........, whistle

PM STX on how to argue this popcorn


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