Curious to hear what some other folks herd management practices are?

We open bucks up to be hunted at 5.5ys old. This in practice almost always guarantees bucks to live until 6yrs as our 5yd olds tend to be very nocturnal whereas that changes significantly in our 6 and older age class. The only exception is 4yr old 6pts which we will aim to take out, but have probably had less than 5 in the 15yrs of being on the ranch. Priority of bucks goes oldest to youngest, lowest potential to highest potential. However if at any time we see one of our shooters we take it knowing anything can show up at anytime.

Doe are shoot insight unless you can tell they are hot, then you can play the odds and see what’s following them.

We tend to have 6-8 buck tags and 20-25 doe tags and between work schedules it can be hard to get all the doe hence the aggressive philosophy there.

Also believe that on a free range ranch it’s impossible to control the antler genetics of a herd, so no culling or spike shooting here. Seeing spikes is usually just a good reason to shoot more doe IMO. We just do our part to let deer get old and improve the nutrition of the land. I guess we cull our 4yr old 6pts but that is more under the idea that land can only hold so many mature bucks and we would prefer higher potential bucks to stay. So more resource management than trying to improve genetics.

This is a great topic and probably because of its important and controversy, it has been discussed on here many times. Its a topic worthy of a lot of discussion and Im too busy going into the season to spend much time on it. Its a better topic for offseason. Anyway, you will probably get a lot of feedback on this and it will become controversial. Personally, I am really in line with everything you said but some will not be. Your last paragraph I agree with but that is where the controversy will come in. There was a thread last off season called MANAGEMENT BUCKS that went for pages and was one of the best threads ive ever seen on here. Good luck with your thread.
https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/7870830/re-management-bucks#Post7870830
^^^Heres the old thread. Save everybody a lot of typing to just reread it. At minimum it will give everybody some ideas on how to reply to this thread,

good plan, pay no attention to the nay sayers.

We do cull. Not in the belief that I think we are improving the genetics, but we hunt because we like to shoot and eat deer and some need to be shot. We shoot plenty of does, I do not like to shoot a lot of spikes, generally our two year old bucks weigh about the same as our mature does. If I see a clean spike that is the same size as a good doe he needs to worry. We shoot no brow 6's etc. We make every effort to leave prime looking deer of their age class alone till maturity.

If you are culling them (bucks) before they get to 4.5 than you likely are doing some real good. That is if you are culling them before they rut.
I believe in a well structured herd, both buck to doe and buck age structure, most of the breeding is done by your middle aged bucks (3.5 & 4.5 year olds).
Culling a 1.5 year old spike or even a 2.5 year old 7 point in a herd that is structured correctly is likely doing nothing except saving you some feed money since he isn't likely to get lucky with all the older bucks around. lol

Everyone has a different opinion on this. We keep it simple. Anything less than a 10 point, shoot at 3. Anything over a 10 point, shoot at 5, 6 if you can stand it. Kill 2 does for every buck you harvest. Is it perfect? No. Is it perfectly scientific? No. Also, no matter what, fill your tags! If you're not filling your tags, MLD or otherwise, then your not doing any type of herd management.

Biggest thing is being honest with yourself about what you or your group is actually capable of doing.

If you don't have resources to get a survey and CC study, then do a hunter survey, est numbers then decide what you can actually take via tags and what LO will stomach.

Number one issue for most places normally is approaching or at carrying capacity with to many does, and an age structure with nonexistent or limited mature bucks.

These two things fix a lot, but it means shooting more does and not big bucks.. Again it's an honesty thing, what buy-in will there actually be, and what is going to be Everyone's tolerance year to year.

Your last sentence has been proven false through genetic research looking at sires of offspring. Shocked the researchers but many doe were bred by scraggly bucks without antler phenotypes that you would think would give an advantage, plus, if doe numbers are out of whack then there are doe being bred when macho big guy is off locked down with the first hot doe. The researchers surmised quite a bit of breeding was done by young bucks watching the bigger bucks fighting and sneaking in and getting the job done while not noticed.

I have always kept my eye on those quiet young bastards, no matter the species.

^^Really good basic stuff by Bobo right there.

Getting your buck to doe ratio in balance is the single most productive management practice you can do to improve your antler quality. Some have touched on it above. I do surveys every fall and work with our TPWD biologist on doe and buck numbers to take every year. We are MLD conservation option. I feed protein free choice from at least Feb 1 to September. Deer are well within carrying capacity. We are not in an antler restriction county. Because of this, we can target any antler chacteristic we don’t like.

We shoot spikes. We have very few, and I have seen none this year after reviewing 6 weeks of photos. We shoot 2 yr olds with only one or no brows. We shoot 3 year olds that are 7 or less and 8s with inferior characteristics (short tines, narrow spread, pencil thin mass). We shoot any 8 at 4 unless super wide with exceptional tine length. We’ve been following this for six years and the number of what I consider inferior bucks has decreased over that time period. Last year we began taking inferior 10s at 4. None of this may really be helping, but as our biologist emphasizes, we are at least removing mouths that compete with the deer we have identified that we want to reach their potential.

Reducing mouths to feed is the biggest issue with almost all deer leases/hunting ranches. Very few people will get ost that where you can get doe to buck ratio in line, then start stratifying the age classes. It is work and not easy if you dont have a group to help do the work on a larger tract of land where herd management would even apply.

Heres a legit question for all those in the convo, what would you consider the minimal size place to even consider herd management issues to be relevant? In my mind, smaller than 100 acres and you are simply talking deer number management and not really herd management. While some could argue numbers=herd management, the splitting hair difference is asking how many animals CAN be taken off a property vs how many animals SHOULD be taken off a property. Someone on the wrong property doing doe reduction is going to find fewer and fewer deer just because the numbers of deer/acre are not huge or the number of acres is not huge. I think the size of the place is certainly dependant on the locale and characteristics of the place.

First thing that comes to mind when I hear herd management is killing does. Unfortunately many would rather try to manage by killing bucks by using the term cull or management. The goal is a 1-1 ratio but not all old and not all young you need to kill some of every age if you can.

Well sir, all I can tell you is what I've personally witnessed on ranches that were very well managed with very balanced age structured herds. And what I saw was 3.5 & 4.5 year old bucks doing an overwhelming amount of the breeding.

I don't think there is a minimum size. The size affects what you have to work with and your amount of control/influence, but every time you shoot or do not shoot a deer you are affecting management. Say you shoot 2 deer off 50 acres a year 1 buck and 1 doe. You have a 3.5 year old 10 that you dont shoot and shoot instead a doe and a spike. You just did some form or other of management. Now on 50 acres the affect of what you did will only be observed if your neighbors do similar.

You also have to figure in predators and parasites and
poaching and bucks fighting, road kill, etc. etc.

Too many ways for a wild animal to die to count on
seeing the same ones year after year unless you
high fence and feed

I assume by a statement like that you have witnessed nearly all the breeding that has happened on all the ranches you have been a part of......of course that's a smart azz comment back to you, but what I was trying to get at is genetic testing has shown what your eyes are telling you is wrong. That's why I wrote what I wrote. And continuing those types of myths does nothing good for realistic deer management.

Sure, well managed ranches probably have young deer/scraggly deer breeding to a lesser extent than unmanaged ranches, but the fact is there is a lot of breeding done in a short window, and while the older more dominant bucks may breed the first couple hot does, we all know deer go into a lock down with a hot doe for around 12-24 hours. If all the other doe turn hot soon after (which is biologically what happens) then who is breeding all the rest of those hot does? You bet it is the younger and less able bucks. It is just a numbers game, a dominant buck can not be in sixteen places all at once. The fact there even is a such thing as a "second rut" or sometimes "third rut" is nature telling you the doe population is way too high and the bucks can not breed all the doe in their first cycle. That also tells you the doe being bred are being bred by inferior phenotype bucks and young bucks.

The better part of this conversation is that genetic expression is not equal to phenotypical expression, and that buck phenotype is not dependent on the sire's antler phenotype. As we all know half (more or less) of the buck genetics come from the doe, but even saying that, research has shown some really average phenotype bucks can throw off some really impressive baby bucks who grow into nice phenotype bucks with time. So the adage of shooting phenotypically bad bucks is very low on the totem pole of deer management because there are so many factors going into what drives buck phenotype. Reduce mouths, habitat, food sources, deer ratios, age stratification...I am sure I missed a few steps on the way, but age stratification is the last thing any of us need to worry about.

I have heard much about this and read a little. Plain & simple, I ain't buying it. No way no how and not sure how the numbers in the study I read were skewed, adulterated and/or whatever. If were to believe what you have swallowed, well managed ranches with desirable "phenotypical expression" would go backwards without the genetic input of those with less desirable "phenotypical expression".

There is always theory and research, With a lot of research not being able to be replicated, and a lot of theory that provides excellent results that didn't actually occur because of the theory’s practices.

End of the Day all Management plans need to start with expectations and ability, then herd documentation, then habitat usage documentation, then reference back to ability vs expectations.

Only way you truly influence genetics with limited tags, is gene swamping by a DPM pen. When you combine it w/ unlimited tags, then you are just cutting time frames down significantly.

The the killing part of management is just a choice of which gets to continue growing/eating, w/ a very very causal influence on breeding.

One year on a 400 acre place in the Texas Hill Country, we killed 35 does. Needless to say, does were pretty jumpy. In the 2 years after we eliminated the does, the bucks were better and we killed some better than average bucks. There were probably 2 factors working for us.
1. The elimination of the 35 does provided extra food for all the remaining deer.
2. New and different bucks and does ended up on the place because of the void caused by killing the 35 does.
After 2 years, we were back in the same shape as we were before killing the 35 does, because of the number of deer in the Hill Country. It was like digging a hole in sand.

, yep. Now its rolling and after a few pages the wheels will come off. Dont get me wrong, great topic, but until I get to talk to the deer I just dont think anyone knows anything with certainty. I have my opinions and I stated many on the other thread, but it just gets old to retype. I do like to listen to others and try to pick and chose how I interpret and what i take away. Carry on gents, Im off to the lease again soon so gotta get ready. Exciting times.

One year on a 400 acre place in the Texas Hill Country, we killed 35 does. Needless to say, does were pretty jumpy. In the 2 years after we eliminated the does, the bucks were better and we killed some better than average bucks. There were probably 2 factors working for us.
1. The elimination of the 35 does provided extra food for all the remaining deer.
2. New and different bucks and does ended up on the place because of the void caused by killing the 35 does.
After 2 years, we were back in the same shape as we were before killing the 35 does, because of the number of deer in the Hill Country. It was like digging a hole in sand.

Jealous, wont be back to our place till we are finished with the move. You must be doing something right with that proof in the pudding thing.

kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does

We had a very similar experience on an almost 800 acre place in the hill country. Way too many deer and to make matters worse it had goats and cattle on it. With 6 hunters on the place (i know too many) only 3 would shoot a doe. We took almost 15 does a year for several years and it made a tremendous difference, even with the other hunters still only shooting bucks and young ones at that. Have family that hunts the place and sure enough in about 2-3 years after we got off the lease and the doe killing went back to nada all the better bucks have once again disappeared.