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Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Texas Dan] #8290361 06/10/21 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Originally Posted by ILUVBIGBUCKS
If your herd is balanced and the carrying capacity of the place is where it needs to be the math to me is very simple. If the numbers are low overall than let your does walk and populate the place to the numbers you want. If you overall numbers are high and the b/d ratio is out of whack then it is time to probably sharpen up more than one knife!


True, but let's not forget there are those who will quickly say they want to see many deer on each and every hunt? Showing them evidence where taking certain does can lessen the impact on their deer numbers would seem to be a good thing.

Who doesn't want to see a lot of deer on every hunt.

So, I've always said I'd rather see 15 deer per hunt and 7-8 of them are good young bucks than see 35 deer per hunt and 30 of them are does and fawns.

I've hunted ranches from one extreme to another and it is a hell of a lot more fun seeing more bucks than does even if the total number you see is 1/2 that of a place that is over-populated, under-fed, and has 5+ does for every buck you see.

Anyone who has ever hunted a well managed ranch that has at least as many bucks as does I think would agree with me.


High fence, low fence, no fence, it really doesn't matter as long as you're hunting!
Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Hudbone] #8290364 06/10/21 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Hudbone
Shoot the one in front of you - it really is that simple

Ya damn skippy!

And don't forget to make sure your case pocket knife has a razor edge on it!!!

grin


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Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Hudbone] #8290444 06/10/21 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Hudbone
Shoot the one in front of you - it really is that simple


Neck and head shots preferred roflmao


Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Texas Dan] #8290449 06/10/21 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Originally Posted by QuitShootinYoungBucks

Zackly, how bout a short synopsis?


Orphaned deer have very good chances of survival, but the presence of the mother does offer a slight increase in their chances, and even more so with young bucks. Because deer tend to nurse beyond the point at which fawns require it, leaving the mother results in a longer nursing period. The fact that orphaned deer often form new groups is something that aids in their survival. Also, young bucks will delay their natural dispersal if the mother remains present, some believing it lessens their chance in getting hit by vehicles during an earlier (and less experienced) dispersal that often happens when they're left alone. Mother Nature has instilled a built-in dispersal mechanism to ensure genetic distribution of breeding, with some bucks traveling 20 miles or more to find a new core area. Needless to say, an older and more experienced buck is more likely to survive such a trip.

What was my key takeaways? Does with button bucks should be left alone so that they get more nutrition and experience. Does with a young female are free game, while the ones with two might be worth leaving for better nutrition of two young deer.

Interesting point. What drives natural dispersion? I had always read, been told, and thought that what caused the bucks dispersion was the momma running him off and that if you wanted to retain more buck fawns in your area to shoot does with buck fawns. We never implemented that practice but it is what ive read. So is that it, or do they naturally on their own by some instinct or other drive hit the road?


It's hell eatin em live
Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Judd] #8290451 06/10/21 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Judd
Originally Posted by Hudbone
Shoot the one in front of you - it really is that simple


Neck and head shots preferred roflmao


Even if you are shooting a gaymoor.

Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Hudbone] #8290518 06/10/21 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Hudbone
Originally Posted by Judd
Originally Posted by Hudbone
Shoot the one in front of you - it really is that simple


Neck and head shots preferred roflmao


Even if you are shooting a gaymoor.


No...they aren't accurate enough...both the shooters and the cartridge. They, like Trash Can Dan, are relegated to behind the shoulder shots...I suppose because it's the nature of the gaymoor, a Texas heart shot is most likely acceptable too rofl


Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Texas Dan] #8290526 06/10/21 02:38 PM
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Thanks for sharing sir

Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Texas Dan] #8290535 06/10/21 02:45 PM
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gaymoor = texas heart shot rofl


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Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: redchevy] #8290542 06/10/21 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by redchevy

Interesting point. What drives natural dispersion? I had always read, been told, and thought that what caused the bucks dispersion was the momma running him off and that if you wanted to retain more buck fawns in your area to shoot does with buck fawns. We never implemented that practice but it is what ive read. So is that it, or do they naturally on their own by some instinct or other drive hit the road?


Please excuse my mistake in reading the conclusions noted in the article incorrectly. Removing the maternal doe actually increases the chances of survival for young bucks because they are not forced to leave by the doe through normal biological process.

"These findings have compelling implications for landowners interested in retaining their young bucks - harvesting maternal does will likely result in fewer buck fawns dispersing, and potentially a net increase in the number of bucks on the property in the future."

Still, I could see where some might claim interfering with natural dispersion might be a bad thing. Or worse, that young buck that's left on your property might be one you don't want.

Last edited by Texas Dan; 06/10/21 02:59 PM.

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Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Texas Dan] #8290590 06/10/21 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Originally Posted by redchevy

Interesting point. What drives natural dispersion? I had always read, been told, and thought that what caused the bucks dispersion was the momma running him off and that if you wanted to retain more buck fawns in your area to shoot does with buck fawns. We never implemented that practice but it is what ive read. So is that it, or do they naturally on their own by some instinct or other drive hit the road?


Please excuse my mistake in reading the conclusions noted in the article incorrectly. Removing the maternal doe actually increases the chances of survival for young bucks because they are not forced to leave by the doe through normal biological process.

"These findings have compelling implications for landowners interested in retaining their young bucks - harvesting maternal does will likely result in fewer buck fawns dispersing, and potentially a net increase in the number of bucks on the property in the future."

Still, I could see where some might claim interfering with natural dispersion might be a bad thing. Or worse, that young buck that's left on your property might be one you don't want.



There was a study done many years ago I believe in Miss or AL regarding this same thing and their findings were that all fawns had a better survival rate when their mommas were harvested than the ones who's mommas were not taken. It was a pretty interesting article and study to say the least and surprised me and that is why it stuck with me so long...........I've slept since then a few times. lol


High fence, low fence, no fence, it really doesn't matter as long as you're hunting!
Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Texas Dan] #8290599 06/10/21 03:48 PM
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When numbers are outta whack and needing to be brought in line, I prefer to shoot younger does as that takes years of offspring out of the equation. Once the buck doe ratio is stabilized, I then concentrate more on the older does because if you are doing things right and can actually improve genetics, the youngers one should carry better genes. I don't cares a whole lot if they have a fawn attached to them or not.

Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Hudbone] #8290884 06/10/21 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Hudbone
When numbers are outta whack and needing to be brought in line, I prefer to shoot younger does as that takes years of offspring out of the equation. Once the buck doe ratio is stabilized, I then concentrate more on the older does because if you are doing things right and can actually improve genetics, the youngers one should carry better genes. I don't cares a whole lot if they have a fawn attached to them or not.



Exactly
if that fawn has lost its spots, get the sharp knife out because it'll do just fine weened.


High fence, low fence, no fence, it really doesn't matter as long as you're hunting!
Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Texas Dan] #8290899 06/10/21 07:48 PM
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I always shot them based on the size and number of the fawns. Dry does got shot first-you're not breaking up families, they'll be the fattest/meatiest of the bunch, and for whatever reason they were bad mothers that year. Then, does with larger single fawns were next, large twins, small singles, and small twins. Usually you never get to the last groups because we're tagged out or the freezers are full.


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Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: QMC SW/EXW] #8291141 06/10/21 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by QMC SW/EXW
Originally Posted by Creekrunner
Originally Posted by QMC SW/EXW
Antlers hold zero appeal for me,


Sorry, but you ain't right. 'Gotta get primal my friend. And of course, I know does taste better.



I have rafters covered in antlers gathering dust. I have shot mulie bucks, whitetail bucks and blacktail bucks and all them antlers do is sit on the rafters in the barns. I tagged my 98th deer last fall. I doubt if I have taken 3 bucks in the last 20 years. You hunt all the bucks you want. I'll stick with the does.

I am the same way, I prefer taking the does. Where I hunt I see 7 or 8 does for every buck I see, the ratio is way out of whack, the does need to be shot. Also, I tried eating the antlers once and it did not work out well.




"Whitetail Deer are extinct because of rifles with telescopes mounted on them." - My 11th Grade English Teacher
Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: LeonCarr] #8291232 06/11/21 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by LeonCarr
Originally Posted by QMC SW/EXW
Originally Posted by Creekrunner
Originally Posted by QMC SW/EXW
Antlers hold zero appeal for me,


Sorry, but you ain't right. 'Gotta get primal my friend. And of course, I know does taste better.



I have rafters covered in antlers gathering dust. I have shot mulie bucks, whitetail bucks and blacktail bucks and all them antlers do is sit on the rafters in the barns. I tagged my 98th deer last fall. I doubt if I have taken 3 bucks in the last 20 years. You hunt all the bucks you want. I'll stick with the does.

I am the same way, I prefer taking the does. Where I hunt I see 7 or 8 does for every buck I see, the ratio is way out of whack, the does need to be shot. Also, I tried eating the antlers once and it did not work out well.




I have tried adorning my walls with links of dried sausage, ham steaks and neck roasts.

Didn’t really look all that appealing and after awhile they started to stink....


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: ILUVBIGBUCKS] #8291310 06/11/21 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ILUVBIGBUCKS
There was a study done many years ago I believe in Miss or AL regarding this same thing and their findings were that all fawns had a better survival rate when their mommas were harvested than the ones who's mommas were not taken. It was a pretty interesting article and study to say the least and surprised me and that is why it stuck with me so long...........I've slept since then a few times. lol


Auburn, Mississippi State, Georgia, and the TPWD all have solid reputations for deer research programs. While this article referenced findings made by the programs in Texas and Georgia, it was written by a graduate student at Auburn under the supervision of Dr. Steve Ditchkoff.


Last edited by Texas Dan; 06/11/21 02:04 AM.

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Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Texas Dan] #8293007 06/13/21 02:25 AM
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Every ranch is different. The shoot/don't shoot does starts with a deer survey. It does not have to be a formal, expensive ordeal. It is as simple as what do the hunters see? Both while hunting, scouting, and on camera. Here is an example. I am on a lease in Mills County. It is not unusual to see 30+ deer during a hunt. Five of them may be bucks. Some I can't tell. Are there excess does? It this a good buck/doe ratio? The problem we have is hunters not shooting the does, and the issue gets worse every year.

Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Texas Dan] #8293178 06/13/21 12:32 PM
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I’ve never done it. My place (I don’t live there) is just South of Bowie. I’ve had it for over 40 years. Back then there were massive amounts of deer. But, they were all healthy. Since more cattle were raised then, we all planted cereal grain, mostly wheat, and fertilized for Winter graze. The deer benefited from it. It wasn’t unusual to see herds grazing in front of the house. Then we got a 4 year drought that had us selling our cows and most never really got started again. The deer, like other wildlife, took a huge hit. Never thought rattle snakes, scorpions, and spiders would be unusual. No ticks or chiggers left and I seldom see or hear coyotes or other small wildlife with the exception of coons. Coons are still abundant. Possums and armadillo aren’t.

We have more than enough deer left to hunt but will probably never again need to consider culling.

And then, there are the hogs if I feel like making something dead. With the hogs I can no longer have wheat patches. I’ve tried that. Don’t even think about shooting a coyote on my place. They are our only ally against the hogs.

Last edited by Dave Davidson; 06/13/21 12:34 PM.

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Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Brother Phil] #8293187 06/13/21 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Brother Phil
Every ranch is different. The shoot/don't shoot does starts with a deer survey. It does not have to be a formal, expensive ordeal. It is as simple as what do the hunters see? Both while hunting, scouting, and on camera. Here is an example. I am on a lease in Mills County. It is not unusual to see 30+ deer during a hunt. Five of them may be bucks. Some I can't tell. Are there excess does? It this a good buck/doe ratio? The problem we have is hunters not shooting the does, and the issue gets worse every year.


You often heard people his the words "carrying capacity" when talking about the need the shoot does. It brings to mind just how to determine what that is, and how some might see it differently than others. Also, isn't it true that deer will naturally disperse when they can't find enough to eat? It's an issue that gets clouded even further when you throw in the desire to feed and grow more bucks with large racks.

Last edited by Texas Dan; 06/13/21 12:53 PM.

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Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Texas Dan] #8293205 06/13/21 01:23 PM
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I hunt in NE Texas and over the years have hunted on several MLD ranches. The LO's have always gotten 2-3x does tags as compared to buck tags.





Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Texas Dan] #8293267 06/13/21 02:39 PM
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Question. If bucks aren't naturally dispersing, won't favourable genetics ultimately degrade do to excess inbreeding?


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Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Texas Dan] #8293288 06/13/21 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Originally Posted by Brother Phil
Every ranch is different. The shoot/don't shoot does starts with a deer survey. It does not have to be a formal, expensive ordeal. It is as simple as what do the hunters see? Both while hunting, scouting, and on camera. Here is an example. I am on a lease in Mills County. It is not unusual to see 30+ deer during a hunt. Five of them may be bucks. Some I can't tell. Are there excess does? It this a good buck/doe ratio? The problem we have is hunters not shooting the does, and the issue gets worse every year.


You often heard people his the words "carrying capacity" when talking about the need the shoot does. It brings to mind just how to determine what that is, and how some might see it differently than others. Also, isn't it true that deer will naturally disperse when they can't find enough to eat? It's an issue that gets clouded even further when you throw in the desire to feed and grow more bucks with large racks.


People feed to increase the health of the herd and to increase fawn recruitment. Mature bucks and larger racks are a by product of proper herd management.

Carrying capacity of the land is what the land can naturally sustain with no supplemental feeding or habitat manipulation. It’s not a difference of opinion it’s a pretty firm number.

Bucks have a naturally higher mortality rate that’s why there are generally more buck fawns born than doe fawns. Coupled with a traditionally heavier harvest of bucks than does has led to many areas having ratios that are way off balance. A lot of people are willfully ignorant of this fact, and don’t want to shoot does. We shoot way more does than bucks on any property I’ve ever hunted save for 2, where the ratios were already pretty tight.

I like a 1:1 or a 1:2 ratio bucks to doe.


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Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Texas Dan] #8293453 06/13/21 07:00 PM
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To Texas Dan. I see the point you are making, and it is logical. Some areas have so many deer, that I don't know where they could go, in search of food. The ranch I am on is 850 acres. One of our hunters counted about 100 deer (an once) on an adjoining ranch. The surrounding ranches are lightly hunted. I did not see any other hunters all of last season. I heard very few gunshots. I think having a sound management plan, and acting on it, is the way to go. However, it takes all lease members, and the property owner, to participate.

Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: Texas Dan] #8293768 06/14/21 12:51 AM
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Shooting does is necessary in most areas of the state. A survey would be needed to see exactly how many needed to killed off of any property. Years ago a rule of thumb on an unmanaged hunting ranch or lease without any survey, you would shoot 1 doe for every 100 acres. In the Hill Country with the high deer density you would need to do a survey of some sort for sure to know how many to shoot off of any piece of property. In northern Gillespie County for example if you plug in the acres into the MLD permit estimator it will show a doe permit for every 25 acres. A ranch I managed in the Hill Country we had a very high deer density at the beginning.....1 deer per 2.8 acres. Ratio was 1 buck to about 3 does. We started out doing an annual survey then did doe harvest accordingly. The buck to doe ratio went to 1 to 1 within 3 yrs with a limited buck harvest and high doe harvest. We concentrated on does without fawns the first 3 yrs then started shooting does with fawns from then own. This did two things. By taking out the older breeding age does it allowed us to slow down recruitment...younger does raising less fawns. We also felt our better genetics were now going to be in the younger does. So by shooting does with fawns it allowed the younger does to reproduce at least one fawn crop. Older does tend to have twins more often so taking them out of the herd is critical if you have to many deer and a bad buck to doe ratio IMO. Back in the early 90's I read an article about how shooting does with fawns....especially if they had buck fawns...the bucks fawns would stay were the were orphaned. That is the home territory they were familiar with so they stayed close to core area of it. One thing I also learned is that younger does seemed to produce more buck fawns on average yr to yr....they also tend to raise one fawn only. So we tried to shoot as many older does...those 3+ yrs of age every year. We wanted the average doe age as young as we could get it down to and still have enough fawns raised to allow a number of mature bucks for hunting every season. We felt keeping the doe age young and as many mature top end bucks as we could would help keeping each new fawn crop with the best genetics.


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Re: An excellent read on shooting does [Re: DLALLDER] #8294275 06/14/21 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DLALLDER
I hunt in NE Texas and over the years have hunted on several MLD ranches. The LO's have always gotten 2-3x does tags as compared to buck tags.


A couple of the ranches I helped guide on were 1 to 1 when it came to buck & doe MLD tags.
Of course those ranches actually had more bucks than does on them at this point in their management plans.


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