Do you think that the TPWD will every back off on the AR's? I know that it has helped buck's to mature, but, have they ran their course now with the way that deer are being managed?

Some places manage better with the restrictions because of the law. If you remove the restrictions in many places I could see the one and 2 year olds making up most of the harvest and not seeing many of the more mature age class bucks after a while. I know it improved the hunting where I hunt in Eastland County.

I don't personally see the need for them to back off on the restrictions. Just my opinion, but one trophy buck per
year should be enough for everyone. If you are hunting for meat, then shoot does...they taste better anyway.

kphillips I think your line of thought is very sound. To me I thought AR started in areas where there was thought to not be much management. It seems to really help out in those areas but any areas that are mostly managed well I would think they dont belong. I always thought ARs were mostly just ETx but evidently there are a lot more counties than I was aware of. I dont know if its likely they will go backwards in those counties any time soon.
I remember talking to TPWD biologist in Throckmorton about 12 or 13 years ago when they were proposing going from one buck to two buck county. We talked about too many bucks being killed but he felt there was enough management minded hunters in the area that it would work. They made the change and I think its worked great. You cant paint Texas all with the same brush. I would hate to be saddled with ARs out there.

I wish they would revise it from 13" to 12" as I have passed several mature high rack 10 and 11 point bucks over the past few years due to our bucks being tall and narrow. All of the young wide bucks are killed off as they are the only ones that make AR's. I know there are some good ones that make it, but where I hunt not many.

Not until there's data that shows they're creating a negative impact.

Experimental ARs for mule deer are absolutely working in the Panhandle.

Not all leases are managed better so AR's will continue to be needed. If you aren't leasing at least a couple of thousand acres you really can't manage the deer herd. Especially in east Texas, you have many small, timber company tracts that are leased and without the AR's after a few years you would go back to maybe not even seeing a buck. The flip side is there are a lot of mature bucks in east Texas that wouldn't make the AR so there ought to be some kind of accommodation for those without having to go MLDP.

I have no problem with them. I see them more as keeping the counties a 1 buck county, which are needed in high pressured areas. You can shoot does or a spike for meat.

I like them as long as they are not in this county.

It just seems that a county that has a 2 buck limit with only one being 13 or great, which means take a spike buck, and I have no problem with, would soon be hard to find a buck with a 13 inch or greater spread. Would it really hurt buck populations to drop the AR for a couple of seasons to take out some of the basket rack bucks, then put it back in place, see what if it hurt the hunting or not. I will take a doe anytime for eating, or a spike, and leave a wall hanger if possible to see if it gets better. I hunt for meat predominantly.

I've said this before. I wish they would allow the county GW to issue a hide tag that is used with the normal buck tag. This is for the mature sub 13" AR deer that the hunter would take a picture and send to the GW to see if he agrees. The GW can issue the hide tag directly to the hunter and both are used when it is harvested. The deer darn sure better match the picture tho.

A lot of them in my area shoot everything with hair on it despite the restrictions.

They just seldom get caught.

Here is where the TPWD acts much like Democrats when it comes to voter fraud. They don't believe it happens enough to matter. Like voter fraud, I choose to differ.

does not matter to much in this county with all the poaching

I doubt it

AR's work... I am uping my post count...

I say do away with restrictions for the youth. Herd to tell my 2 girls they cant shoot their first deer because it is not big enough.

Honestly the only thing i see AR's doing is keeping people from killing all the bucks. I hunted in a few AR counties, and lived in one for most of my life. Pretty much what we saw was the absence of bucks. You could drive around at dusk and see a field with 50 deer in it and pretty much not a buck in the lot. AR's ensure that at least some fraction of the buck population is allowed to survive. I think they do their best in areas that are comprised of smaller tracts that are hunted heavily.

NO. They give you plenty of time in the general season to get meat for the freezer without having to kill young bucks.......I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually create a exception tag for obviously mature bucks that don't make the minimum inside spread.....

What is the body image of a mature buck or more than mature buck that make it easier to judge the age, if they were to go to a buck tag that was for the 13 and under, but getting on up in age? Would the buck look more like us guys as we age, grey in the face all over, pot bellied, and walking with his joints sounding like Rice Krispy's?

I don't want to piss people off but hunting "is being in the right place at the right time" these days. Hunting went away with the modern firearms and grocery stores. If you don't like AR's its because your hunting horns no matter what the size. Does provide me with meat if that's what I want. I have some nice bucks on my 20 acre place that would never have made it to be nice bucks prior to AR's. Still I see some mistakes happening because people are shooting horns instead of age. Luckily all my trigger happy neighbors are gone and management minded folks have moved in. 15 years ago 15" bucks were few and far between north of College Station and south of Waco. This year I saw 4 over 20" and 1 was taken by my brother on my 20 acre plot. AR's are welcome to stay because if your hunting meat, a doe will do and if you want a trophy, AR's help them get closer to reaching their full potential. Not all bucks will make it to 20 inches wide but the longer they live the closer they get. To being in the right place at the right time.

This^^^ But, that's the point. AR's were put in place in parts of east Texas where you would so rarely see nice Bucks that people were shooting anything with horns. Of course, you were not seeing many nice Bucks because you were shooting anything with horns, but regardless of how many times people were told that, it had to be made into a regulation in order for people to actually abide by it. If AR's went away, people would go back to shooting anything with horns and we would end up back at square one. You can argue that AR's have now spread to places where they weren't really needed, but AR's are like those little plastic dividers between you and the cashier. You know, the ones you and the cashier both go around so that you can actually hear the other person.... Useless or not, they are here to stay.

It's funny. Most people thing the ARs are an East Texas thing. Several years ago I was down in Cuero and ran into the local GW at lunch (at a local mexican/bbq joint, imagine that?) and we started talking. I brought up AR rules and wondered why they had them so far South. He told me that De Witt County was the first County in Texas with AR rules. They put them in place as an experiment with TPWD Biologists and some of the bigger ranch owners and they worked.

I remember as a kid hunting in Gonzales county, we were lucky to see a deer much less a buck.

Probably a lot would agree on an exception for obvious mature but narrow bucks, but im not sure it would be practical to pull off.

I actually wish they would set an age on bucks and go with that. Put out several videos on how to on their website.

That would be perfect in practice, but lets get real it will never ever work.

I have posted pictures of deer that we have 4+ years of photos of and people call them 3 lol

And I bet you can post photos of 3 year olds and people will say they are 5.

IMO, it's not so much hunters being able to judge the specific age of a buck but that it's "at least" three or four. Antler restrictions were never meant to make sure every buck lived to be old but only to increase the age structure. Before antler restrictions, hunters were taken 2-1/2 year olds with small, 10 and 12-point basket racks. If someone shoots a big-bodied 8-point with a 12-inch rack, I say more power to them, should that ever become legal.

Ya'll can search for the long laborious posts of the past, but using the terms "data" or "science" in an Antler Restrictions thread is completely comical to say the least.

TPWD does not have up to date data, NOR are they collecting data based on AR's. The only data they get are from MLD logs, or game warden law enforcement contacts. It's an orphan program, no data or science to back it up at this point, and none to allow it to be discredited.

Shoot more hoes ,, oops. Does.

That's what has been happening in our area since our narrow gene bucks dominate, now we are seeing less does and bucks. But I will say, the narrow bucks are some nice tall 10 and 11 point beauties.

when the people who complain the most about AR's are the ones shooting mature deer on the regular, then maybe that opinion will matter.

Mississippi might be ahead of Texas on the antler restrictions for those narrow bucks, they added in a main beam length as a qualification of taking a deer so that allows a narrow racked mature buck to be harvested without someone estimating age.

It's absolutely transformed East Texas hunting......hope it's fine tuned but remains forever

Psst! Keep that to yourself. Most folks don't believe there are many big deer in East Texas.

I am sure it has; especially where the population can sustain and thrive from the increased harvest. In counties with smaller populations, that got blanketed with the same rules, it has hurt overall.

Why are these counties so limited in population? Is it over harvest? Limited food? Limited cover?

Ive never hunted in an area where the slaughter of does wasnt needed. We shoot close to 10 does a year off our 320 acres have for a decade and we arent making a dent.

The pic from below is from the Misfsissippi regs. Main beam lenght or antler spread to qualify as legal allows for those mature narrow bucks to be legal. I would like to see it implemented in Texas as well.

Would be nice.

I could get on board for something like this.

Perfect example of why we dont have stuff like that. That buck if broadside wont meet the requirements.

but this baby would but he needs 4 more years.

Where would the end of his beams fall if he wasnt looking down. Still doesnt look like a legal buck by the images Kmon posted.

Not saying that is the best method but it would allow for a lot of those narrow 3+ year old bucks (that you see on many threads discussing antler restrictions posted) with narrow spreads to be harvested legally. One of your 3 bucks a year where those regs are at can be below the minimum in that section.

Hook_n_line there is a provision to take the buck you posted in the regs. One of your 3 bucks may be smaller than the minimum antler restrictions, so under these you could still remove him from the heard if you want legally.

Antler restrictions have helped a lot in Leon and burleson co where we own property.
I like antler restrictions and hope it stays.
We see some really good bucks compared to years before restrictions.
If it were lifted in these areas it would go back to b lucky to get a 12”8pt
IMO.

Fannin, Lamar, Red River have a few pockets of deer that have huntable numbers. The regs apply to the whole county, which means virtually every spike gets shot, anything close to 13 gets shot, and the middle bucks are left as the breeders. Guess what you get over time, more middle sized bucks. The Fannin County data set was less than 10 deer before they implemented AR's. Even TWPD own external review, said they had way too little data to make these changes, or support keeping them.

I also hunt a ton in Foard/Hardeman Counties. One buck. When often we see 10-12 bucks at a time, with some really ugly ones... so I wouldn't mind a Spike or clean up tag out there as discussed above... because the herd can handle the pressure.

I am not a fan of state mandated antler restriction for any reason. A landowner can do as they wish on their own property but I don't like some faceless person in state employ telling me what buck I can shoot or not shoot. Once a hunter buys the tag from the state he/she should be able to tag whatever legal deer they want. If I want to fill my tag with a tender young forkhorn or 6 pt then that is my business and not Austin's. If I want to hold out for a big racked brute, then that is also my business.

I have never taken a deer due to antler size and am a meat hunter. If someone wants to make a personal decision to hold out for old bucks with a lot of exposed bone on their head, then I wish them success. I hope they take a monster but I care little about that and feel that I should be able to use my tag in the manner of my own desires. It makes no sense for a buck with a 12 inch spread to be illegal while a buck with a 13 inch spread is fair game. In a biological stance, that inch means nothing.

Save your typing fingers since most who complain about AR's have never experienced what you described, and if they had they wouldn't be so vehemently against them.
I know they aren't the complete and final answer, but after all these years TPWD has lost a lot of credibility in my opinion for not tweeking the rules when it comes to AR's in certain counties where blanket AR's aren't working.
TPWD seem to be good at muddying the waters and then walking away!

No they aren’t the complete answer. For instance I don’t like the idea of shooting yearling spikes that may have been born late or just a bad year for growing. But the old narrow horn bucks that I’m sure are out there,we just don’t see that many like that.
I don’t have anything against meat hunting but on my property I do like the bucks to get some age on them.
I don’t have anything against hunting high fence ranches but I prefer low fence.
We try to take no more than 2 mature bucks/200acres
I don’t hunt anymore but I take my grandchildren. After they are done hunting I will sit and try to take out a hog or a coyote and it’s enjoyable for me to see a really nice buck and just let him walk hoping he slips through the cracks for next year
To each their own.

I dont really have a dog in the AR fight so consider this question off topic.. How do you manage to kill two mature bucks on 200 acres? If you can do that over time and sell your secret then you would be rich.

These days it seems what hunters consider a "mature" buck can vary greatly.

Same with Freestone....

I would like to see some way to get rid of 5+ YO basket heads or tall narrow bucks....

I dont really have a dog in the AR fight so consider this question off topic.. How do you manage to kill two mature bucks on 200 acres? If you can do that over time and sell your secret then you would be rich. [/quote

There’s one side of us that’s a pretty good chunk that’s not hunted.
And when the grandkids hunt the definition of a mature buck changes I should have said legal buck
We do let legal bucks walk
My grandkids are getting pickier the older they get.
At our ranch in Coleman co where there’s no restrictions they won’t shoot a small buck and I like that

Well said, from both sides of the coin

Have you ever heard the expression "just because you can doesn't mean you should"- just because you can shoot a spike doesn't mean you need to. Life is a series of choices and you can choose to not shoot a spike if it is only to justify the lease cost. I know some that will shoot something they may ordinarily pass on because "I paid for the lease so I had to shoot something". I have gone several years in a row without shooting something and not for lack of opportunity- I passed on two nice eight points this year during bow season that more than qualified for the antler restrictions but were a little young and decided to pass.

This is where TP&W does the research on AR's.

https://tpwmagazine.com/archive/2020/nov/research_kerrwma/index.phtml

People shoot spikes for three very good reasons. It's legal, the TPWD recommends it, and you can't eat antlers.

I had the kids take this spike out of 3.



These better deer will get more groceries, We decided to take 2 deer from this particular section so the spike and a doe were chosen. They sure taste good.

I am a meat hunter, the last 3 deer I have taken were does, and I just wish that you could take does in all counties all season. When you can only take does on Thanksgiving and the Friday, Saturday, and Sunday after, that is silly.

I don't know if that is part of the ARs, but it is still silly.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

They do that so too many does don't get killed. Used to be all season in colorado county & herd got shot up bad. Too many small tracts shooting anything that walked through.

Gotcha