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Bullet de-stabilization #8226733 04/06/21 04:30 AM
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I have a ruger 77/357 with a 20" barrel that I am shooting suppressed. I worked up a load shooting a cast performance 200 grain bullet at about 1060fps (I did run it over a chronograph). 1:16" twist. I do not know the BC, but the bullet is .848 in long. At 100 yards, there is no key-holing evident, and I am shooting right at 1" groups. At 150 yards, I can still hit what I am aiming at. At 200 yards, I can't hit a 12 inch square plate. I am guessing that the bullet is de-stabilizing somewhere between 150 and 200 yards. Can anyone smarter than me confirm my suspicions? I am thinking I need to step down to a 180 grain bullet. What says the THF braintrust?


Originally Posted by SnakeWrangler
Originally Posted by TurkeyHunter
And make Kamila president

She’d just end up blowing it......
Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8226757 04/06/21 06:58 AM
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180gr bullets have worked in the 3 Marlin 357 Mag I have owned. I never went above that weight, never really saw the need to.


lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
Mainstream news might be fun to watch
Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8226760 04/06/21 07:53 AM
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If zeroed at 100 you’re going to be roughly 35 inches low at 200. I would also look to 180s with a bit more pep.

Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8226807 04/06/21 11:13 AM
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This question is much easier to answer empirically. Put out a much larger paper target and see if the bullets are going through sideways at 200 yards to indicate tumbling.

Compared with the shape of the bullet holes, accuracy is a very difficult metric to use as an indicator of stability.

Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: wp75169] #8226832 04/06/21 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by wp75169
If zeroed at 100 you’re going to be roughly 35 inches low at 200. I would also look to 180s with a bit more pep.

I could load the 200 gr with a bit more pep if I wanted to, but the idea behind this load is to be subsonic through a suppressor.


Originally Posted by SnakeWrangler
Originally Posted by TurkeyHunter
And make Kamila president

She’d just end up blowing it......
Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8226835 04/06/21 11:45 AM
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A subsonic 200 grain .357 doesn't have the steam to reliably use at 200 yards.


Pass the gravy.


Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: MathGeek] #8226841 04/06/21 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MathGeek
This question is much easier to answer empirically. Put out a much larger paper target and see if the bullets are going through sideways at 200 yards to indicate tumbling.

Compared with the shape of the bullet holes, accuracy is a very difficult metric to use as an indicator of stability.

Good to see you post something outside of one of your own threads!
I had already thought of doing that, but won't be able to do that until the next trip down to the Ranch. I know that some guys here use a calculator to figure stability of a bullet before they even attempt to load it, and maybe can tell me how stable/ unstable that combo might be.


Originally Posted by SnakeWrangler
Originally Posted by TurkeyHunter
And make Kamila president

She’d just end up blowing it......
Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: GasGuzzler] #8226844 04/06/21 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by GasGuzzler
A subsonic 200 grain .357 doesn't have the steam to reliably use at 200 yards.

You may be right, but a lot of people say the same thing about a 22 at 300 yards.


Originally Posted by SnakeWrangler
Originally Posted by TurkeyHunter
And make Kamila president

She’d just end up blowing it......
Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8226849 04/06/21 12:03 PM
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I forgot to add that the velocity is still decent at 925 ish at 200 yards.

Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: wp75169] #8226883 04/06/21 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by wp75169
I forgot to add that the velocity is still decent at 925 ish at 200 yards.


Im out of my own on this, but just a thought... At long range bullets loose stability when they loose to much velocity... right?

925 fps doesnt seem to me like it should be loosing too much velocity to be stable.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8226976 04/06/21 02:32 PM
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I think it’s (tumbling) usually caused by the bullet going transonic vs. a loss in velocity. At 300 yards my .22 rounds have dropped to 718 FPS and no tumbling has occurred (that I know of). What is the twist rate, it’s possible a really slow twist might cause this.


Do not trifle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: P_102] #8226977 04/06/21 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by P_102
I think it’s (tumbling) usually caused by the bullet going transonic vs. a loss in velocity. At 300 yards my .22 rounds have dropped to 718 FPS and no tumbling has occurred (that I know of). What is the twist rate, it’s possible a really slow twist might cause this.

1in 16" twist. As it starts subsonic, it can't go transonic.


Originally Posted by SnakeWrangler
Originally Posted by TurkeyHunter
And make Kamila president

She’d just end up blowing it......
Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8227307 04/06/21 06:13 PM
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Also when I plugged that into the calculator I made up a BC. Anyone want to guess at it I may get it closer.

Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8227515 04/06/21 09:56 PM
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I have the same rifle and cut off 6" of barrel. It still stabilizes 247gr cast bullets well. I have plinked with them at longer distances and them seem to remain stable. Using a MV of 1050 fps. The 16" twist should be more than enough for a 200gr bullet.

Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8227615 04/06/21 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by unclebubba
Originally Posted by P_102
I think it’s (tumbling) usually caused by the bullet going transonic vs. a loss in velocity. At 300 yards my .22 rounds have dropped to 718 FPS and no tumbling has occurred (that I know of). What is the twist rate, it’s possible a really slow twist might cause this.

1in 16" twist. As it starts subsonic, it can't go transonic.


I didn’t mean to imply it was going transonic, just that that’s normally what causes destabilization. I did miss the twist rate though.


Do not trifle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: glocker17] #8227889 04/07/21 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by glocker17
I have the same rifle and cut off 6" of barrel. It still stabilizes 247gr cast bullets well. I have plinked with them at longer distances and them seem to remain stable. Using a MV of 1050 fps. The 16" twist should be more than enough for a 200gr bullet.

Maybe I just need to figure the correct bc so that I can calculate the correct drop. Unfortunately, the manufacturer website does not list bc, so I am just taking an uneducated guess.


Originally Posted by SnakeWrangler
Originally Posted by TurkeyHunter
And make Kamila president

She’d just end up blowing it......
Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: P_102] #8227891 04/07/21 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by P_102
Originally Posted by unclebubba
Originally Posted by P_102
I think it’s (tumbling) usually caused by the bullet going transonic vs. a loss in velocity. At 300 yards my .22 rounds have dropped to 718 FPS and no tumbling has occurred (that I know of). What is the twist rate, it’s possible a really slow twist might cause this.

1in 16" twist. As it starts subsonic, it can't go transonic.


I didn’t mean to imply it was going transonic, just that that’s normally what causes destabilization. I did miss the twist rate though.

up


Originally Posted by SnakeWrangler
Originally Posted by TurkeyHunter
And make Kamila president

She’d just end up blowing it......
Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8227934 04/07/21 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by unclebubba
Maybe I just need to figure the correct bc so that I can calculate the correct drop. Unfortunately, the manufacturer website does not list bc, so I am just taking an uneducated guess.


That's probably why the math says the velo is still "high" at 200 yards. I bet it's not almost 1K FPS. It's takes a pretty fat nose to get 200 grains out of a .357 bullet. I have a NOE mold that produces bullets that once GC'd and PC'd weighs 187-ish and it has a WIDE meplat and a flat nose.


Pass the gravy.


Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8228033 04/07/21 01:07 PM
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Figure at least 1.2 mil of drop for every 25 yards and you will be in the neighborhood. Takes a lot of elevation to get those out past 200 yards.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by glocker17; 04/07/21 01:11 PM.
Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: glocker17] #8228997 04/08/21 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by glocker17
Figure at least 1.2 mil of drop for every 25 yards and you will be in the neighborhood. Takes a lot of elevation to get those out past 200 yards.

[Linked Image]



Can you expand more on the 247gr loads? I SBR'ed my 77/357 and haven't had time to start loading, Where are you getting the heavy bullets? Powder? 50 & 100 yd accuracy? I assume you are shooting suppressed? Killed anything with it?
Thanks

Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8228998 04/08/21 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by glocker17
Figure at least 1.2 mil of drop for every 25 yards and you will be in the neighborhood. Takes a lot of elevation to get those out past 200 yards.

[Linked Image]



Can you expand more on the 247gr loads? I SBR'ed my 77/357 and haven't had time to start loading, Where are you getting the heavy bullets? Powder? 50 & 100 yd accuracy? I assume you are shooting suppressed? Killed anything with it?
Thanks

Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8229030 04/08/21 01:54 AM
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Jhills. What are you shooting out of your 77/357? Here's the loads that I'm talking about in this thread.
[Linked Image]
Remington mag primer, 4.8 gr of Unique, and about 1 moa accuracy at 100 yards. As stated, I'm having all kinds of issues at 200 yards.
I haven't had the chance to kill any pigs with it yet. But that'll change this summer.


Originally Posted by SnakeWrangler
Originally Posted by TurkeyHunter
And make Kamila president

She’d just end up blowing it......
Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8229085 04/08/21 02:41 AM
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Mine is a 10" SBR, killed more stuff than the plague. 247gr cast at 1050fps. 5.0gr of HP38 does well.

Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: glocker17] #8229158 04/08/21 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by glocker17
Mine is a 10" SBR, killed more stuff than the plague. 247gr cast at 1050fps. 5.0gr of HP38 does well.

Does your's cycle those monsters well? Mine will hang up on the 200 grain bullets occasionally. I have to cycle them with "gusto" in order to get 100% reliability.


Originally Posted by SnakeWrangler
Originally Posted by TurkeyHunter
And make Kamila president

She’d just end up blowing it......
Re: Bullet de-stabilization [Re: unclebubba] #8229429 04/08/21 01:43 PM
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I have not shot anything yet. I cut mine to 10 or 11" would have to check. About the time I did it the covid crap hit. Have been more focused on loading 6.8 for hogs.

Are you concerned shooting gas checks through your suppressor? You casting your own bullets (that looks like a Beartooth bullet)? Or buying from where?
I saw a guy loading 246's and even had some 300 gr on AR15 but not sure where he was buying. He said Federal brass 38 SPL cases worked best, Remington 38's were a no go. Would have to go back and reread to see what the issue was but the heavy bullets worked best with 38SPL brass.

Don't have H38 but have Unique and a few others.

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