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The enemy within #8148978 01/30/21 12:44 PM
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I believe that human beings are increasingly becoming detached from nature and the realities of how raw nature works. A friend of my son's asked my son why we had trophies on our wall. My son answered that we enjoy the outdoors, enjoy hunting, enjoy getting our own meat and enjoy how healthy the meat is. The trophy is a memento of the hunt - like a photograph only much better and lifelike. The friend said he felt sorry for the animals and wanted to know why we didn't just buy meat from the supermarket!!

As people become more detached from nature I think they find it more difficult to understand our need to hunt and to remain neutral or to passively support it. I think people are increasingly becoming easier targets for animal rights movements to sway over to their side. So, I think we hunters have to do things by the book. We don't want to feed the animal rightists with stuff that they can use against us. All indiscretions by a minority of idiots in the hunting community are leveraged for all they are worth and little seeds are planted in people's minds that all hunters are irresponsible, bloodthirsty killers with no regard for the law and no respect for nature.

It irritates me to no end, therefore, when I see photos such as the one below. In SA, it is not legal to discharge a firearm, air-rifle or any other dangerous weapon (incl bow) in an urban area unless there are compelling, legitimate reasons e.g. self defence. Furthermore, it is not legal to shoot any birds or animals in urban areas. Yet, every year we have some idiots who will shoot birds/animals in their yards with a bow / air-rifle. Newspapers and television will carry the stories and social media will go mad. Bottom line is a lot of bad press for the hunting/bow community, hunters in general being seen as bad guys by more and more people and the AR groups getting a lot of mileage out of it all.

Or am I overreacting?

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Re: The enemy within [Re: Dimitri] #8148995 01/30/21 01:11 PM
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You’re not overreacting but you are conflating different, but related, issues.

The urbanization of society is not likely to slow down and it’s certainly a challenge to the future of hunting. Bottom line is we all need to be proactive in presenting hunting as both a natural activity that has sustained the human race since its inception and as a driver of conservation of the natural world. There has actually been quite a bit of progress in that regard with various new approaches such as food-to-table initiatives.

And, like it or not, we need to be more aware that highlighting the killing/gore/blood/guts aspect of hunting is probably not wise. Exploding hogs with tannerite, whack-‘em-and-stack-‘em videos, and high-fiving laughter as an animal kicks its last in the background all do way more harm than good.

Finally, we need to educate all that poachers and wanton wildlife killers are not hunters but criminals, who should be punished accordingly.

It’s always good to remind ourselves that we are in a constant fight to keep hunting alive and well.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: The enemy within [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #8149044 01/30/21 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
You’re not overreacting but you are conflating different, but related, issues.

The urbanization of society is not likely to slow down and it’s certainly a challenge to the future of hunting. Bottom line is we all need to be proactive in presenting hunting as both a natural activity that has sustained the human race since its inception and as a driver of conservation of the natural world. There has actually been quite a bit of progress in that regard with various new approaches such as food-to-table initiatives.

And, like it or not, we need to be more aware that highlighting the killing/gore/blood/guts aspect of hunting is probably not wise. Exploding hogs with tannerite, whack-‘em-and-stack-‘em videos, and high-fiving laughter as an animal kicks its last in the background all do way more harm than good.

Finally, we need to educate all that poachers and wanton wildlife killers are not hunters but criminals, who should be punished accordingly.

It’s always good to remind ourselves that we are in a constant fight to keep hunting alive and well.



This


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Re: The enemy within [Re: Dimitri] #8149081 01/30/21 03:17 PM
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Well said NP.


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Re: The enemy within [Re: Dimitri] #8149236 01/30/21 05:50 PM
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Pretty much 100% agree with Dimitri and Nog. Very well said and worth a read and reread by anyone that cares about hunting. I might add that another thread running now about the "5 M's of Hunting" touches on similar themes to this.
https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/8148326/the-5-ms-of-hunting#Post8148326

Last edited by freerange; 01/30/21 05:51 PM.

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Re: The enemy within [Re: Dimitri] #8149240 01/30/21 05:54 PM
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This has been an ongoing issue as far back as I can remember, and I am in my 70's.


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Re: The enemy within [Re: Dimitri] #8150540 02/01/21 12:29 AM
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The attorney has it right.

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Re: The enemy within [Re: Dimitri] #8150778 02/01/21 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Dimitri
It irritates me to no end, therefore, when I see photos such as the one below. In SA, it is not legal to discharge a firearm, air-rifle or any other dangerous weapon (incl bow) in an urban area unless there are compelling, legitimate reasons e.g. self defence. Furthermore, it is not legal to shoot any birds or animals in urban areas. Yet, every year we have some idiots who will shoot birds/animals in their yards with a bow / air-rifle. Newspapers and television will carry the stories and social media will go mad. Bottom line is a lot of bad press for the hunting/bow community, hunters in general being seen as bad guys by more and more people and the AR groups getting a lot of mileage out of it all.


How do you know that this bird was shot in an urban area?

Do you know what type of bird that actually is?


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Re: The enemy within [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8150882 02/01/21 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Originally Posted by Dimitri
It irritates me to no end, therefore, when I see photos such as the one below. In SA, it is not legal to discharge a firearm, air-rifle or any other dangerous weapon (incl bow) in an urban area unless there are compelling, legitimate reasons e.g. self defence. Furthermore, it is not legal to shoot any birds or animals in urban areas. Yet, every year we have some idiots who will shoot birds/animals in their yards with a bow / air-rifle. Newspapers and television will carry the stories and social media will go mad. Bottom line is a lot of bad press for the hunting/bow community, hunters in general being seen as bad guys by more and more people and the AR groups getting a lot of mileage out of it all.


How do you know that this bird was shot in an urban area?

Do you know what type of bird that actually is?


Yes, this is a hadeda ibis. Common in South Africa and has expanded it's range in the last few decades. Very common resident in urban gardens where they nest in large trees. Unlike doves and pigeons that nest in urban areas but fly out to wheat/sunflower/sorghum fields every day to feed, hadedas get all their food from our gardens. They feed on earthworms, mole crickets, snails, other insects and they are great stealers of dog pellets.

Given their localised nature and the fact that the closest rural area begins about 20km from where the bird was photographed, I, and people more learned than me, believe that the bird is a local resident and was shot in someone's garden.

Re: The enemy within [Re: Dimitri] #8151060 02/01/21 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dimitri
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Originally Posted by Dimitri
It irritates me to no end, therefore, when I see photos such as the one below. In SA, it is not legal to discharge a firearm, air-rifle or any other dangerous weapon (incl bow) in an urban area unless there are compelling, legitimate reasons e.g. self defence. Furthermore, it is not legal to shoot any birds or animals in urban areas. Yet, every year we have some idiots who will shoot birds/animals in their yards with a bow / air-rifle. Newspapers and television will carry the stories and social media will go mad. Bottom line is a lot of bad press for the hunting/bow community, hunters in general being seen as bad guys by more and more people and the AR groups getting a lot of mileage out of it all.


How do you know that this bird was shot in an urban area?

Do you know what type of bird that actually is?


Yes, this is a hadeda ibis. Common in South Africa and has expanded it's range in the last few decades. Very common resident in urban gardens where they nest in large trees. Unlike doves and pigeons that nest in urban areas but fly out to wheat/sunflower/sorghum fields every day to feed, hadedas get all their food from our gardens. They feed on earthworms, mole crickets, snails, other insects and they are great stealers of dog pellets.

Given their localised nature and the fact that the closest rural area begins about 20km from where the bird was photographed, I, and people more learned than me, believe that the bird is a local resident and was shot in someone's garden.


So you have expressed concern that some idiots are shooting birds in their yards and that hunters will be blamed. Then you asked if you are overreacting. The answer is YES, you are overreacting for the same reasons you are concerned about.

Like the public making assumptions about hunters being bad people, you are making assumptions about the bird being hunted in the city limits. The public doesn't really know if hunters are involved and just see the arrow (hunters often use arrows). You know know where the bird was shot geographically and have just assumed it was in the city limits because that is where you see the bird.

Sadly, people shoot birds with arrows and they don't always die and then they get found in urban areas. That doesn't mean that was where the birds were shot.





The biology and common behavior of the hadeda ibis is that they fly out to forage into the wetlands and cultivated fields and such, and then fly back to roost. They may also feed in gardens and such as well. The point is, 20 km isn't a significantly long flight for these birds. We have birds that do the same things here in the US.

Now, if you want to make the same sort of complaint about the bird being shot because it is illegal to shoot them as a species (no clue on your hunting regs), then you could have a solid argument. Or, if you have video of the act occurring in the city limits, you have a solid argument. Otherwise, you just have the end result with no actual knowledge of how the event occurred and because you can't know where the event actually took place, just like the public can't know if it was by a hunter or not, you are overreacting like you fear the public will do.


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Re: The enemy within [Re: Dimitri] #8151341 02/01/21 06:01 PM
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My goodness double naught, dimitri seems very much to be on the correct side of things. It seems all that he wrote was much more significant than whatever small example the pic represented. To me his main point was to suggest we as hunters unite and here you go trying to split hairs to divide us. Is next someone going to complain cause he may of been shot with a crossbow, or compound or traditional. Completely missing the point(a good one) to me.
But Im burying my Mother today so maybe you caught me on a bad day. Maybe ill post pics of the flowers and see if someone will complain about the colors. Sooooo tired of all the negativity.


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Re: The enemy within [Re: Dimitri] #8151671 02/01/21 10:45 PM
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its all about the mighty dollar. Hunting has gotten SO expensive for families to get on a lease, go on a package hunt. Soccer, basketball, baseball, football consumes most families $$ where I live in Frisco. Most are transplanted Yankees who never hunted, fathers never hunted. So kids end up playing hockey. I've seen it first hand. My girlfriends grandkids fit my description above perfectly. I ask the boys if they want to go learn how to shoot, go hunting...they look at me like I'm crazy, they think guns are bad, dangerous killers. Kill Bambi !!!??? they would rather play sports or video games, text their friends

I feel like the sport of hunting is disappearing right before our eyes. The big ranches are selling off, being divided up.

Everyone says "Take a kid Hunting" Where? On a $3,000+++ guided hunt?? Who's paying???

Its sad


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Re: The enemy within [Re: Dimitri] #8151694 02/01/21 10:57 PM
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Nicely written

Re: The enemy within [Re: freerange] #8152140 02/02/21 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by freerange
My goodness double naught, dimitri seems very much to be on the correct side of things. It seems all that he wrote was much more significant than whatever small example the pic represented. To me his main point was to suggest we as hunters unite and here you go trying to split hairs to divide us. Is next someone going to complain cause he may of been shot with a crossbow, or compound or traditional. Completely missing the point(a good one) to me.
But Im burying my Mother today so maybe you caught me on a bad day. Maybe ill post pics of the flowers and see if someone will complain about the colors. Sooooo tired of all the negativity.


He asked if he was overreacting. I replied honestly and explained why. The pic was posted for shock value and then assumptions made of unknowable circumstances were presented to support a point. That is not "on the correct side of things," as you say, or "not by the book" as Dimitri said. When so many real and known examples are available, why go this course?


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Re: The enemy within [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8152157 02/02/21 07:30 AM
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Hey Double Naught Spy,

Thanks for your post.

Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
So you have expressed concern that some idiots are shooting birds in their yards and that hunters will be blamed. Then you asked if you are overreacting. The answer is YES, you are overreacting for the same reasons you are concerned about.


I asked and you gave your opinion. Fair enough. I'll respond to some of your rationale below.

Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy

Like the public making assumptions about hunters being bad people, you are making assumptions about the bird being hunted in the city limits. The public doesn't really know if hunters are involved and just see the arrow (hunters often use arrows). You know know where the bird was shot geographically and have just assumed it was in the city limits because that is where you see the bird.

Sadly, people shoot birds with arrows and they don't always die and then they get found in urban areas. That doesn't mean that was where the birds were shot.


My assumptions about where the bird was shot are based on knowing the habits of that species in the area where I live. And on scientific research. However, it does not matter what assumptions I make. I don't think I am the problem. I am on the side of hunters and bow owners. The problem is the assumptions that some people make. If they assume it was a hunter who shot the bird in an urban area then that is their reality. It's likely to turn them against hunters - especially when paired with a few strategic messages from the AR groups or when they see another headline about a bird/animal that was shot in an urban area with a bow / air rifle. We hunters don't need that bad press. And if it was one of us that shot the hadeda then we need to realise what damage we are doing to our image and that of others members of our hunting/shooting community.

Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy

The biology and common behavior of the hadeda ibis is that they fly out to forage into the wetlands and cultivated fields and such, and then fly back to roost. They may also feed in gardens and such as well. The point is, 20 km isn't a significantly long flight for these birds. We have birds that do the same things here in the US.

Now, if you want to make the same sort of complaint about the bird being shot because it is illegal to shoot them as a species (no clue on your hunting regs), then you could have a solid argument. Or, if you have video of the act occurring in the city limits, you have a solid argument. Otherwise, you just have the end result with no actual knowledge of how the event occurred and because you can't know where the event actually took place, just like the public can't know if it was by a hunter or not, you are overreacting like you fear the public will do.


We will just have to disagree on the behaviour of hadedas in and around the greater Johannesburg area. The behaviour of hadedas in other (more arid?) areas of the country may be different. I base my opinion on having observed these birds in my area for decades. More importantly, my observations are consistent with scientific research. Singh and Downs state in a study published in 2016 that: "In the urban environment, lawns are common patches of green space that are usually kept short and are frequently watered especially during the drier seasons for human aesthetic appeal (Adams et al. 2006). Hadeda Ibis use these spaces for foraging and the short grass which is artificially watered simulate their natural wetland habitat making lawns an ideal foraging habitat (Macdonald et al. 1986)." Greater Joburg and it's surrounding areas consist of thousands of square kilometers of ideal hadeda habitat. Joburg's urban forest with its well watered lawns, parks, golf courses, soccer/rugby/cricket and other sports fields and the greenbelts in the suburbs mean that Hadedas do not need to fly to rural areas to feed. The ones in my garden visit at all and any hours of the day. They are permanently around here.

Quote
The pic was posted for shock value and then assumptions made of unknowable circumstances were presented to support a point.
Pics like the one I posted do indeed have a lot of shock value. That is why they get distributed far and wide and why the pic I posted made the front page of at least 1 newspaper, various online news sites and the pages of various animal rescue / welfare organisations. Which is why it bothers me. Because I am a hunter. And there may be a lot more people who, over the last few days, have now joined the club of those who think bad of hunters. Mine may possibly be an overreaction but I can't help it. Every time this happens and I feel the image of hunters has been battered it's like I feel a noose slowly tightening over my and more likely my children's right to hunt and own weapons/firearms.

Re: The enemy within [Re: Buzzsaw] #8152303 02/02/21 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Buzzsaw
its all about the mighty dollar. Hunting has gotten SO expensive for families to get on a lease, go on a package hunt. Soccer, basketball, baseball, football consumes most families $$ where I live in Frisco. Most are transplanted Yankees who never hunted, fathers never hunted. So kids end up playing hockey. I've seen it first hand. My girlfriends grandkids fit my description above perfectly. I ask the boys if they want to go learn how to shoot, go hunting...they look at me like I'm crazy, they think guns are bad, dangerous killers. Kill Bambi !!!??? they would rather play sports or video games, text their friends

I feel like the sport of hunting is disappearing right before our eyes. The big ranches are selling off, being divided up.

Everyone says "Take a kid Hunting" Where? On a $3,000+++ guided hunt?? Who's paying???

Its sad



I hear you sir but the fact is most of those who won't pay the $3k don't bat an eye at spending 2X, 3X, or even as much as 5X that for that kid to have all kinds of specialized training such as strength and conditioning by a professional coach and playing 'club ball' year round whether it is baseball, softball, volleyball, soccer, football...whatever.

I'll never forget a great friend of mine that I played ball with back in the day asked me how in the hell I could spend $3,500 for my son and I to have a spot on a deer lease each when he was in middle school. When I asked him how much he spent on his 2 daughters club volleyball his first answer was "just a few hundred dollars". I then asked him about all the other training he was paying for and then exactly how much they spent on trips out of town as far away as CA to go play in tournaments. That answer never came so I told him that I guessed he and his wife were spending about 5X as much as we were to hunt on their kids volleyball adventures. Both were tremendous players in HS (all-district in 6a) but neither got their college paid for to play volleyball!

Or, look how much some parents spend on stock shows on animals for their kids. I've seen that get very out of hand as well even when not buying the most expensive pigs, steers, lambs, or goats.

Or, some families will drop $10k or more every year on a family vacation.....some do it a couple times a year.

It's all about what you truly love to do and how much you really want to do it I guess.


High fence, low fence, no fence, it really doesn't matter as long as you're hunting!
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Originally Posted by ILUVBIGBUCKS
Originally Posted by Buzzsaw
its all about the mighty dollar. Hunting has gotten SO expensive for families to get on a lease, go on a package hunt. Soccer, basketball, baseball, football consumes most families $$ where I live in Frisco. Most are transplanted Yankees who never hunted, fathers never hunted. So kids end up playing hockey. I've seen it first hand. My girlfriends grandkids fit my description above perfectly. I ask the boys if they want to go learn how to shoot, go hunting...they look at me like I'm crazy, they think guns are bad, dangerous killers. Kill Bambi !!!??? they would rather play sports or video games, text their friends

I feel like the sport of hunting is disappearing right before our eyes. The big ranches are selling off, being divided up.

Everyone says "Take a kid Hunting" Where? On a $3,000+++ guided hunt?? Who's paying???

Its sad



I hear you sir but the fact is most of those who won't pay the $3k don't bat an eye at spending 2X, 3X, or even as much as 5X that for that kid to have all kinds of specialized training such as strength and conditioning by a professional coach and playing 'club ball' year round whether it is baseball, softball, volleyball, soccer, football...whatever.

I'll never forget a great friend of mine that I played ball with back in the day asked me how in the hell I could spend $3,500 for my son and I to have a spot on a deer lease each when he was in middle school. When I asked him how much he spent on his 2 daughters club volleyball his first answer was "just a few hundred dollars". I then asked him about all the other training he was paying for and then exactly how much they spent on trips out of town as far away as CA to go play in tournaments. That answer never came so I told him that I guessed he and his wife were spending about 5X as much as we were to hunt on their kids volleyball adventures. Both were tremendous players in HS (all-district in 6a) but neither got their college paid for to play volleyball!

Or, look how much some parents spend on stock shows on animals for their kids. I've seen that get very out of hand as well even when not buying the most expensive pigs, steers, lambs, or goats.

Or, some families will drop $10k or more every year on a family vacation.....some do it a couple times a year.

It's all about what you truly love to do and how much you really want to do it I guess.


great points. the grandkids i was talking about do just what you said. i guarantee their parents spend $25,000 easy on their 4 kids team sports including cheerleading for their 3rd grade girls'

just wish hunting could be more accepted these days. Will there be hunting in 20-50-100 years?


SPACE FOR RENT


Re: The enemy within [Re: Buzzsaw] #8152498 02/02/21 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Buzzsaw

Will there be hunting in 20-50-100 years?


That weighs heavy on my mind. We (us and the wildlife) will be so much the poorer for it if it happens. I derive great joy and satisfaction from various past-times but if I cannot hunt there will be a part of my soul that will remain unfulfilled.

Re: The enemy within [Re: Dimitri] #8152962 02/02/21 09:50 PM
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In truth when someone says they are against hunting that’s pretty much like saying they are against bigger brain development, walking upright, discovering fire, and using tools - all of which helped to make us human. Think about it.

Like so many other things, hunting has become a political identity thing that has no business being a political identity thing.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


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Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
And, like it or not, we need to be more aware that highlighting the killing/gore/blood/guts aspect of hunting is probably not wise. Exploding hogs with tannerite, whack-‘em-and-stack-‘em videos, and high-fiving laughter as an animal kicks its last in the background all do way more harm than good.


THIS! Thank you for saying what I’ve been thinking.

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