texashuntingforum.com logo
Main Menu
Advertisement
Affiliates
Advertisement
Newest Members
vincentdinho, Berettamathews, JBro, Steve Lunsford, DFWShootingSport
68574 Registered Users
Top Posters(All Time)
dogcatcher 108,406
bill oxner 86,028
stxranchman 57,785
SnakeWrangler 57,222
RKHarm24 44,585
rifleman 44,461
Gravytrain 43,037
BMD 41,218
Forum Statistics
Forums46
Topics606,360
Posts11,356,435
Members83,574
Most Online19,184
Feb 5th, 2020
Print Thread
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: wp75169] #8143891 01/26/21 01:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,805
H
HicksHunter Offline
Pro Tracker
Offline
Pro Tracker
H
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,805
Originally Posted by wp75169
Originally Posted by HicksHunter
Originally Posted by wp75169
For the sake of understanding let’s quit using the words “harmonics” and “sine wave”. Both are correct but for the sake of understanding let’s call it “barrel whip”. As in the movement a whip makes when you snap it.

Everyone may already be on the same page but I don’t think so.

Which way is the tail of the whip (barrel) pointed when the bullet exits, up or down?


This makes about as much difference at close ranges as compensating for spin drift.



Then explain why we do load development instead of just loading everything to max? It’s not uncommon to have big groups in between two good ones. It’s suggested you will find two good nodes, one low and one high. They’re referring to powder charge and velocity, but often the faster load will print lower on the 100 yard target. Hmmm.... wonder if those two nodes are the top and bottom of the arc on the sine wave where the barrel is static for a moment before changing directions? I think JG covered that on the last page though.

I guess we have to agree to disagree.


Help me understand this. You guys are saying that if you are testing a series of powder charges from low to high at 100 yards, instead of seeing a general trend of the bullets hitting lower and lower until you hit max charge, you will see oscillations up and down in POI of 2" and more? You aren't simply describing finding an accuracy node, you are implying that the barrel is whipping so severely and shifting your POI that no trend can be deduced!

Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8143986 01/26/21 03:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,918
C
cxjcherokec Online Content
Veteran Tracker
Online Content
Veteran Tracker
C
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,918
Here is a real world experience Hicks, proving its harmonics. My sons 6.5CM prints a 0 with 140gr AMAX. Put on the AAC can and note there is a POI shift 1" lower than w/o. MV stayed the same, same lot, same bullet, everything is 100% the same minus adding the can. THAT proves harmonics, without a doubt.

Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8143991 01/26/21 03:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,956
kmon1 Online Shocked
junior
Online Shocked
junior
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,956
Barrels move, vibrate/whip/what ever. Short stiff barrels do less than long thin barrels but all experience it to an extent. We that are reloaders looking for precision find out "node" for accuracy which generally will be when the barrel is moving less at the time the bullet exits the barrel. Different things have been used over the years to try and minimize the amount of movement. Many production manufactures leave a wood bump in their wood stocks near the end of the forearm to provide a dampening of the resonance of the barrel when firing to reduce the harmonic shifts when shooting. Remington and Sako are a couple that certainly have. Barrel tuners used in 22s are also employed by come in centerfire, think Browning BOSS.

There are some interesting videos showing barrel whip using high speed cameras to catch it. Muzzle breaks and other devices enhance it but the bullet has left th barrel before the whip caused by them happens yet there is movement while the bullet is in the barrel.







lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
Mainstream news might be fun to watch
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: cxjcherokec] #8144016 01/26/21 03:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,805
H
HicksHunter Offline
Pro Tracker
Offline
Pro Tracker
H
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,805
Originally Posted by cxjcherokec
Here is a real world experience Hicks, proving its harmonics. My sons 6.5CM prints a 0 with 140gr AMAX. Put on the AAC can and note there is a POI shift 1" lower than w/o. MV stayed the same, same lot, same bullet, everything is 100% the same minus adding the can. THAT proves harmonics, without a doubt.


And then as he changes his load, what happens to his POI?

I'm sorry, but hanging a weight off the end of a barrel is not conclusive proof that ammunition changes harmonics enough to shift POI 2" or more at 100yd. The question is "why do heavier bullets hit higher at this distance," and the only real answer is "trajectory differences."

Last edited by HicksHunter; 01/26/21 03:47 PM.
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: HicksHunter] #8144033 01/26/21 03:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34,014
F
FiremanJG Online Content
THF Celebrity
Online Content
THF Celebrity
F
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34,014
Originally Posted by HicksHunter
Originally Posted by cxjcherokec
Here is a real world experience Hicks, proving its harmonics. My sons 6.5CM prints a 0 with 140gr AMAX. Put on the AAC can and note there is a POI shift 1" lower than w/o. MV stayed the same, same lot, same bullet, everything is 100% the same minus adding the can. THAT proves harmonics, without a doubt.


And then as he changes his load, what happens to his POI?

I'm sorry, but hanging a weight off the end of a barrel is not conclusive proof that ammunition changes harmonics enough to shift POI 2" or more at 100yd. The question is "why do heavier bullets hit higher at this distance," and the only real answer is "trajectory differences."


Only trajectory difference is the heavier bullet left the muzzle when the muzzle was flexed upward. The lighter bullet, the muzzle was not at apex of the sine wave. Heavier bullet left higher, so it hits higher.

Barrel harmonics.

I've shot countless 500 yard ladder tests .224" bullets, everything in between up to .338" bullets, short action to big magnums. Same components, only difference is powder charge. Many times, with high end custom rifles, I've seen sub 1/4 MOA groups with three different charges in the group. I've also seen hotter charges land lower than lighter charges. Why? The lighter charges were not in the accuracy node. And the accuracy node is a muzzle at apex of sine wave.

Barrel harmonics.


[Linked Image]
800 Yard Steel Range
Precision Rifle Instruction
Memberships and Classes Available
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: FiremanJG] #8144038 01/26/21 04:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,805
H
HicksHunter Offline
Pro Tracker
Offline
Pro Tracker
H
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,805
Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Originally Posted by HicksHunter
Originally Posted by cxjcherokec
Here is a real world experience Hicks, proving its harmonics. My sons 6.5CM prints a 0 with 140gr AMAX. Put on the AAC can and note there is a POI shift 1" lower than w/o. MV stayed the same, same lot, same bullet, everything is 100% the same minus adding the can. THAT proves harmonics, without a doubt.


And then as he changes his load, what happens to his POI?

I'm sorry, but hanging a weight off the end of a barrel is not conclusive proof that ammunition changes harmonics enough to shift POI 2" or more at 100yd. The question is "why do heavier bullets hit higher at this distance," and the only real answer is "trajectory differences."


Only trajectory difference is the heavier bullet left the muzzle when the muzzle was flexed upward. The lighter bullet, the muzzle was not at apex of the sine wave. Heavier bullet left higher, so it hits higher.

Barrel harmonics.

I've shot countless 500 yard ladder tests .224" bullets, everything in between up to .338" bullets, short action to big magnums. Same components, only difference is powder charge. Many times, with high end custom rifles, I've seen sub 1/4 MOA groups with three different charges in the group. I've also seen hotter charges land lower than lighter charges. Why? The lighter charges were not in the accuracy node. And the accuracy node is a muzzle at apex of sine wave.

Barrel harmonics.


As I posted earlier, I'd be interested to hear your guess as to what would happen here:

"Help me understand this. You guys are saying that if you are testing a series of powder charges from low to high at 100 yards, instead of seeing a general trend of the bullets hitting lower and lower until you hit max charge, you will see oscillations up and down in POI of 2" and more? You aren't simply describing finding an accuracy node, you are implying that the barrel is whipping so severely and shifting your POI that no trend can be deduced!"

Again, please keep in mind that we're talkng about short distances where the bullet is still on the rise, not a 500yd ladder test.

Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: HicksHunter] #8144043 01/26/21 04:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 36,320
R
redchevy Online Content
THF Celebrity
Online Content
THF Celebrity
R
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 36,320
Originally Posted by HicksHunter

As I posted earlier, I'd be interested to hear your guess as to what would happen here:

"Help me understand this. You guys are saying that if you are testing a series of powder charges from low to high at 100 yards, instead of seeing a general trend of the bullets hitting lower and lower until you hit max charge, you will see oscillations up and down in POI of 2" and more? You aren't simply describing finding an accuracy node, you are implying that the barrel is whipping so severely and shifting your POI that no trend can be deduced!"

Again, please keep in mind that we're talkng about short distances where the bullet is still on the rise, not a 500yd ladder test.

So do you believe that all horizontal dispersion in grouping is caused by shooter inconsistency alone?


It's hell eatin em live
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: HicksHunter] #8144052 01/26/21 04:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,918
C
cxjcherokec Online Content
Veteran Tracker
Online Content
Veteran Tracker
C
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,918
Originally Posted by HicksHunter
Originally Posted by cxjcherokec
Here is a real world experience Hicks, proving its harmonics. My sons 6.5CM prints a 0 with 140gr AMAX. Put on the AAC can and note there is a POI shift 1" lower than w/o. MV stayed the same, same lot, same bullet, everything is 100% the same minus adding the can. THAT proves harmonics, without a doubt.


And then as he changes his load, what happens to his POI?

I'm sorry, but hanging a weight off the end of a barrel is not conclusive proof that ammunition changes harmonics enough to shift POI 2" or more at 100yd. The question is "why do heavier bullets hit higher at this distance," and the only real answer is "trajectory differences."


My point was that barrel harmonics play a factor in POI shift. You claim its all based on MV and BC and harmonics play no role. I proved that wrong

Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8144054 01/26/21 04:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,334
W
wp75169 Online Content
THF Trophy Hunter
Online Content
THF Trophy Hunter
W
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,334
Mine is not “on the rise” @ 100 yards. Some may be.

[Linked Image]

Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8144057 01/26/21 04:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,805
H
HicksHunter Offline
Pro Tracker
Offline
Pro Tracker
H
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,805
I guess I'll have to bow out of the thread here. If you guys want to perpetuate fuddlore, go for it.

Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: HicksHunter] #8144068 01/26/21 04:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 36,320
R
redchevy Online Content
THF Celebrity
Online Content
THF Celebrity
R
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 36,320
Originally Posted by HicksHunter
I guess I'll have to bow out of the thread here. If you guys want to perpetuate fuddlore, go for it.

A lot is learned through disagreements. Keep it civil and its all ok.

Dont ask one side to see it your way if your not willing to look at it from the other side as well.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: redchevy] #8144115 01/26/21 04:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,884
T
TLew Online Content
Pro Tracker
Online Content
Pro Tracker
T
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,884
Originally Posted by redchevy
Dont ask one side to see it your way if your not willing to look at it from the other side as well.


Repeat for bunker? grin

Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: HicksHunter] #8144119 01/26/21 05:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34,014
F
FiremanJG Online Content
THF Celebrity
Online Content
THF Celebrity
F
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34,014
Originally Posted by HicksHunter
Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Originally Posted by HicksHunter
Originally Posted by cxjcherokec
Here is a real world experience Hicks, proving its harmonics. My sons 6.5CM prints a 0 with 140gr AMAX. Put on the AAC can and note there is a POI shift 1" lower than w/o. MV stayed the same, same lot, same bullet, everything is 100% the same minus adding the can. THAT proves harmonics, without a doubt.


And then as he changes his load, what happens to his POI?

I'm sorry, but hanging a weight off the end of a barrel is not conclusive proof that ammunition changes harmonics enough to shift POI 2" or more at 100yd. The question is "why do heavier bullets hit higher at this distance," and the only real answer is "trajectory differences."


Only trajectory difference is the heavier bullet left the muzzle when the muzzle was flexed upward. The lighter bullet, the muzzle was not at apex of the sine wave. Heavier bullet left higher, so it hits higher.

Barrel harmonics.

I've shot countless 500 yard ladder tests .224" bullets, everything in between up to .338" bullets, short action to big magnums. Same components, only difference is powder charge. Many times, with high end custom rifles, I've seen sub 1/4 MOA groups with three different charges in the group. I've also seen hotter charges land lower than lighter charges. Why? The lighter charges were not in the accuracy node. And the accuracy node is a muzzle at apex of sine wave.

Barrel harmonics.


As I posted earlier, I'd be interested to hear your guess as to what would happen here:

"Help me understand this. You guys are saying that if you are testing a series of powder charges from low to high at 100 yards, instead of seeing a general trend of the bullets hitting lower and lower until you hit max charge, you will see oscillations up and down in POI of 2" and more? You aren't simply describing finding an accuracy node, you are implying that the barrel is whipping so severely and shifting your POI that no trend can be deduced!"

Again, please keep in mind that we're talkng about short distances where the bullet is still on the rise, not a 500yd ladder test.


You can see POI shift of 2" and more at 100 yards, absolutely. I don't load test at 100 yards. But I will foul and check zero at 100 yards. And yes, sometimes you cannot see a trend on a BAD powder charge. It is what is called erratic. My charges are within .02 gr from one case to the next, so the ammo shot to shot is extremely consistent. But extremely consistent on an improper powder charge will still shoot poorly. Find the right charge and the load tightens up.


[Linked Image]
800 Yard Steel Range
Precision Rifle Instruction
Memberships and Classes Available
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: HicksHunter] #8144122 01/26/21 05:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34,014
F
FiremanJG Online Content
THF Celebrity
Online Content
THF Celebrity
F
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34,014
Originally Posted by HicksHunter
I guess I'll have to bow out of the thread here. If you guys want to perpetuate fuddlore, go for it.


Fuddlore?

Add all of us together and it is over 100,000 rounds of experience.


[Linked Image]
800 Yard Steel Range
Precision Rifle Instruction
Memberships and Classes Available
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8144145 01/26/21 05:26 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,566
S
Smokey Bear Online Content
Veteran Tracker
Online Content
Veteran Tracker
S
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,566
Hicks, I’ve been following along here and you are off the mark. I respect the fact you have given a lot of thought to cause and effect however your logic is flawed. A 100 yard zero is load specific in a given rifle. Only after we have various Bullets leaving the muzzle in the same exact same direction can we compare trajectories. When the cartridge goes off, the barreled action writhes like a snake in all directions, not just up and down. Precise bedding, heavy barrels and pressure points are among the things used to dampen the shock wave that bounces up and down the barreled action until it dissipates after the cartridge is fired. We go to great lengths to shore up the bedding in order to find a powder charge where the shock wave has bounced back into the action and the muzzle is at its most stable when the bullet leaves the bore. The reality is until we shoot the various loads in a given rifle, the point of impact is a mystery due to barrel harmonics. Once we find a load that leaves the muzzle where it is in a stable position it is utterly repeatable.

Last edited by Smokey Bear; 01/26/21 05:44 PM.

Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: Smokey Bear] #8144267 01/26/21 07:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,223
C
Crews Offline
Pro Tracker
Offline
Pro Tracker
C
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,223
Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
Hicks, I’ve been following along here and you are off the mark.


Worth repeating.

Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: Crews] #8144328 01/26/21 08:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,518
P
patriot07 Offline
Extreme Tracker
Offline
Extreme Tracker
P
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,518
Originally Posted by Crews
Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
Hicks, I’ve been following along here and you are off the mark.


Worth repeating.

+2

Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8144332 01/26/21 08:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,061
T
Texas Dan Online Content
THF Celebrity
Online Content
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,061
Yes, there is a bit of a "swamp" in this as well as the Ammo Forum.


Dan

Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8144383 01/26/21 09:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,805
H
HicksHunter Offline
Pro Tracker
Offline
Pro Tracker
H
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,805
Again, I challenge anyone here to shoot their two best shooting loads of different grains and/or velocity at a distance closer than their zero (thanks for helping clarify this, WP), and post a picture of your results. 100% the slower bullet will impact higher, negating the idea that it's due to harmonics.

I'll even film a video next time I go to the range demonstrating this with several firearms. Handguns and rifles of both centerfire and rimfire varieties.

Last edited by HicksHunter; 01/26/21 09:11 PM.
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: HicksHunter] #8144396 01/26/21 09:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34,014
F
FiremanJG Online Content
THF Celebrity
Online Content
THF Celebrity
F
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34,014
bang


[Linked Image]
800 Yard Steel Range
Precision Rifle Instruction
Memberships and Classes Available
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8144400 01/26/21 09:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,805
H
HicksHunter Offline
Pro Tracker
Offline
Pro Tracker
H
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,805
I can relate.

For pete's sake, why is it such a common thing to suggest changing bullet weights in a pistol when it doesn't shoot to POI with fixed sights? It's definitely not barrel whip because 100% of the time it's suggested to go with a heavier, slower bullet.

Last edited by HicksHunter; 01/26/21 09:19 PM.
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: HicksHunter] #8144413 01/26/21 09:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,447
P_102 Online Content
Veteran Tracker
Online Content
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,447
Originally Posted by HicksHunter
Again, I challenge anyone here to shoot their two best shooting loads of different grains and/or velocity at a distance closer than their zero (thanks for helping clarify this, WP), and post a picture of your results. 100% the slower bullet will impact higher, negating the idea that it's due to harmonics.

I'll even film a video next time I go to the range demonstrating this with several firearms. Handguns and rifles of both centerfire and rimfire varieties.


The two BEST SHOOTING loads are likely leaving the barrel at the top of the ‘wave’ which may make your statement correct...unfortunately that has ZERO to do with the question Mr. Fudd.


Do not trifle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: P_102] #8144418 01/26/21 09:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,805
H
HicksHunter Offline
Pro Tracker
Offline
Pro Tracker
H
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,805
Originally Posted by P_102
Originally Posted by HicksHunter
Again, I challenge anyone here to shoot their two best shooting loads of different grains and/or velocity at a distance closer than their zero (thanks for helping clarify this, WP), and post a picture of your results. 100% the slower bullet will impact higher, negating the idea that it's due to harmonics.

I'll even film a video next time I go to the range demonstrating this with several firearms. Handguns and rifles of both centerfire and rimfire varieties.


The two BEST SHOOTING loads are likely leaving the barrel at the top of the ‘wave’ which may make your statement correct...unfortunately that has ZERO to do with the question Mr. Fudd.


Ahh, so you're saying that the two best shooting loads would have an identical POI? Even with different velocities?

Because this is demonstrably false.

Last edited by HicksHunter; 01/26/21 09:31 PM.
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8144423 01/26/21 09:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,447
P_102 Online Content
Veteran Tracker
Online Content
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,447
Please point out where I said that.......or do you have a difficult time with English?


Do not trifle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Re: POI of heavier vs. lighter bullets [Re: HicksHunter] #8144424 01/26/21 09:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,518
P
patriot07 Offline
Extreme Tracker
Offline
Extreme Tracker
P
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,518
Originally Posted by HicksHunter
Again, I challenge anyone here to shoot their two best shooting loads of different grains and/or velocity at a distance closer than their zero (thanks for helping clarify this, WP), and post a picture of your results. 100% the slower bullet will impact higher, negating the idea that it's due to harmonics.

I'll even film a video next time I go to the range demonstrating this with several firearms. Handguns and rifles of both centerfire and rimfire varieties.


I'm not burning a $20 range fee and $20 in ammo to prove what we already know to someone who refuses to consider the fact that they might be wrong.

Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

© 2004-2019 OUTDOOR SITES NETWORK all rights reserved USA and Worldwide
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3