Here are two bucks taken within a few years of each other - both 190's - think they were related?

This is why we let our bucks grow to maturity - because they continue to breed does to pass on their genes - kill them at 4 years old and they do not sire as many does as they will at age 5 or 6.

This is also why we cull 3-4 year old 8 points - yes a rare 8 point will at age 3-4 will blow up to be something better - but for every one of those you let walk there will be many others that never get better than an 8 point but keep breeding your does. If you have 10-20 point young deer walking around that are 3-5 years old why take the chance on letting a bunch of 8 pointers breed in hopes that one of them will get bigger? It is all about the numbers and percentages IMO. Seems to have worked for us

Definitely related.....if you didn’t state otherwise, you would think one was done with sheds of the same deer.

Wow two great deer. Never thought of it that way. I always like seeing a lot of nice 8 points but I get what you are saying. Something to think about , I see a young deer and just let him walk. Interesting

Dang tlk, here we go again. Worthy topic and I dont fault you for bringing up but its been beat to death on here before. I have offered hours of opinions on the subject and will refrain from rehashing right now. I will say that I love when you post pics of your amazing deer. My only comment on genetics for now is to say they are related but I dont think anyone knows if maybe they had the same mother. Im sure the usual suspects will all chime in.

I’d love to know their relation. Wonder what sired them.

shame, i bet a lot of fawns don't know who their father is.....

Nice bucks

True statement - could have been the same doe that produced these two bucks - so odds are: 50% it was the mom (doe) and 50% it was the dad (buck) - long term I will take 50-50 odds all day long - BUT if you factor in that the chances are that same doe (if you get lucky) will breed with a good buck then your odds may jump from 50-50% to 60-40% odds of great genetics passing on and I like those odds even better.

So if you stay on a place long enough then the good 60% chance (50% bucks and and an extra 10% on does) it will produces some awesome bucks over time IMO - cannot tell you how many bucks we have taken that have the same genetics as bucks taken before them - my brain works different from most I understand but it somehow seems to work in our situation

Taking this a different direction, how many hunters hunt/deer are culled every year to make this type of management work? Reason i ask is there are many many places that can not cull enough 3-4yo 8pts to make this kind if plan work.

I remember reading you said LO has day hunters that help with culling duties. So according to your biologist/management plan, approx how many bucks will you need to take this year and how many doe?

These deer you guys have are amazing, and your plan is the continuation of lots of work no doubt, just curious about your deer harvest goals and how close you get to them. Also, are you guys mld?

Depending on range conditions and fawn survival our LO guides management hunters to help with culling. For example this year we are taking around 60-70 does off of 9000 acres - some years that goes as high as 100 does and other years as low as 30-40.

We shoot all culls on sight so on average that runs around 10-20. Truth is we have managed so hard over the past 13 years finding a true cull can be a challenge. Management bucks on average we take 20-25 per season - on trophies we take on average 3-4 per year - this year we have taken two trophies (two 190 plus) - we have 12 hunters so along with our LO's efforts we get the job done

not quite sure what that means but thank you (I think)

Yeah, some serious numbers for sure. 12 hunters would have a hard time doing that on their own when the number is on the high side. Even the management bucks cant be done all by the leasors. Thanks for the info!

I wish we had the MLD tags and freedom to manage our herd like this.

Same genetics IMO, both great bucks

Years ago I saw twin bucks killed by two different hunters on the same weekend, on the same ranch.

Both 150 class bucks, and the racks were about as identical as you can get.

We had a long discussion about the bucks, and given they were the same age, came up with the conclusion they were identical twin fawns. May be wrong, but I doubt they came from different does.

Dayum good buck I agree with your harvesting management I also believe in shooting 1 1/2 and older spikes!

My opinion. If your producing bucks like that with your management practices, then you are producing quality does also. Keep doing exactly what you are doing.

Looks to me like tlk and his lease members are doing all the good. Just have to get the age on them. Every day in here during deer season I see where somebody has shot a 4yo. ten point. Sad

You can take it to the bank.

You can do a DNA test on them to find out for sure....but they are very similar. My guess(WAG) is that they are both from the same doe. Bucks really do not sire that many fawns in a well managed herd that has a tight buck to doe ratio. Just not possible IMO....then throw in fawn mortality and predation so the odds of fawns sired by one buck that live are going to be low. It is possible that one buck sired both but the odds of that are low IMO. The odds of both being born to the same doe would be better.
Both are great bucks and show what great management can do. It is not about what lives that effects the program but what you remove.

From memory, DNA studies performed at the King Ranch suggested dominant bucks might cover 4-5 does during any one breeding season.

I think it might be a bit lower than that...in South Texas how many fawns would survive out of those few does bred by one buck? Then how many of those fawns survivors will be buck fawns? If you are only seeing a 30%-40% fawn survival rate then the odds of a lot of the fawns sired by one buck that survive are low. All bucks of any age class are involved in the rut and capable of breeding a doe. So I would think that number would be lower...but it is possible for a "lucky buck" to breed when in his younger years all the way till he is older. A buck is going to spend 48-72 hours or even a little more with one doe. But all it takes is one buck fawn...the right one to survive and it is all worth it. That is what you manage for...the right ones to survive.

and that there illustrates the very reason you attempt to cull out those with inferior genetics. leave more vittles for the those who display the traits you desire. Life in the wild is a struggle - the ultimate struggle.

I agree 100%....just because that highest scoring buck is the one that get your attention does not mean that he is the dominant buck or aggressive in the breeding. It is not what you keep but what you remove the effects the herd the most.

Absolutely those two had the same genetics somewhere along the lines.

Both great bucks.

TLK, one thing that I noticed on one of the really good places I guided on that had a very, very balanced B/D ratio as well as an extremely balanced age structure in the buck herd was that whenever we'd see a really 'hot doe' that was being run hard it always seemed to be the middle age bucks (3.5/4.5) that were on her trail the hardest and very rarely seemed to be the mature bucks (5.5+). I'm not saying that the 5.5+ bucks didn't breed their share of the does in the pasture but it was just strange that we saw so many middle aged bucks doing most of the heavy chasing so it really had me thinking that more of the breeding is done by the middle aged bucks than the mature bucks.
For reference, the last helicopter count I was involved with there we counted almost identical numbers (within 5% of each age group) of immature (1.5 & 2.5), middle aged (3.5 & 4.5), and mature (5.5+) bucks in the count.