|
Forums46
Topics537,817
Posts9,729,480
Members87,042
| |
Most Online25,604
Feb 12th, 2024
|
|
|
 Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8104815
12/27/20 07:49 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 91,416
bill oxner
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 91,416 |
Who wrote get rid of the buffaloes and you will be rid of the Indians?
Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill ![[Linked Image]](https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/pics/usergals/2017/07/full-3669-105539-full_16668_105507_image.jpg)
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#8104855
12/27/20 08:22 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,261
Sniper.270
OP
Veteran Tracker
|
|
OP
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,261 |
Caddoas, mayans, incas and aztecs did not chase buffalo. Lumping all injuns as advanced is a mistake. Some of those there advanced Native American were no match for the highly outnumbered colonialists and outdoorsmen they were confronted with. Had the colonialists met the full force of the native people, they may have met their match. But smallpox, cholera, etc took their toll and estimates are nearly 90% of the native population was wiped from the americas by the time the jamestown colony was founded. Some of the earliest explorers have records of native town after town along the great rivers in N america, but by the time lewis and clark sailed the northern ones, the number of settlements along the river were gone. And btw, there used to be bison all the way down to current mexico. I would guess most of the natives that lived in texas and the area of the caddoan tribes hunted bison to some degree. Might not have been the main part of their hunting. But to say they didn’t chase bison, depends if you mean “chase” like the plains natives did, then you are correct; if you mean “chase” like we mostly all chase deer, you are probably incorrect. The difference between the various tribes/groups of Indians in the now US was amazing. The Indians of the east coast and NE are so different and fascinating. The Indians of the SW, same. NW, same. Shoot all of them have their own fascinating and wonderful history.
Proverbs 2
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8104864
12/27/20 08:32 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,909
leswad
Extreme Tracker
|
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,909 |
This is a hanging scale made by Luckhuas & Gunther of Remshield Germany, to measure the weight of buffalo hides. Luckhuas & Gunther were noted to made swords, carpentry tools, pocket knives C. 1800's. ![[Linked Image]](https://i.postimg.cc/PJjGPbyD/0-B341680-BEEA-4-C83-8-F7-B-83-B7-F4785-E36.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](https://i.postimg.cc/y8Zc03yD/BBED0-AA0-9-E2-E-4939-BDA8-43-EE610768-C3.gif) FJB
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: leswad]
#8104874
12/27/20 08:45 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,433
freerange
THF Trophy Hunter
|
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,433 |
This is a hanging scale made by Luckhuas & Gunther of Remshield Germany, to measure the weight of buffalo hides. Luckhuas & Gunther were noted to made swords, carpentry tools, pocket knives C. 1800's. Now THAT is interesting. Of course this whole thread has been interesting and enlightening for me. Im not much on history, so thanks TXBuc and Sniper.
At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8104917
12/27/20 10:02 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 3,791
Wytex
Extreme Tracker
|
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 3,791 |
Caddo did hunt bison.
Very cool scale leswad !
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8104926
12/27/20 10:14 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,154
Hudbone
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,154 |
Caddoe may well have hunted Bison out of opportunity, but fairly certain they were not a depended upon game resource.
The point is the Indian way of life and their civilization stabilization became outmoded when the newcomers forced themselves upon them. Don’t get me wrong, their story is very romantic and endearing. Even so, if it were practical and admirable, it would have come back or successfully replicated over the past generations.
Last edited by Hudbone; 12/27/20 10:15 PM.
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Hudbone]
#8104942
12/27/20 10:30 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
Caddoe may well have hunted Bison out of opportunity, but fairly certain they were not a depended upon game resource.
The point is the Indian way of life and their civilization stabilization became outmoded when the newcomers forced themselves upon them. Don’t get me wrong, their story is very romantic and endearing. Even so, if it were practical and admirable, it would have come back or successfully replicated over the past generations. Outmoded in who’s eyes? Just because one civilization was dominated by another into extinction doesn’t mean it wasn’t “practical” or “admirable”. I imagine the Native Americans thought their way of life was both. Hitler, Mussolini, and Hirohito almost took over the world. If they had, that wouldn’t have made their civilizations more “practical” or “admirable” than the Allied civilizations. Russia and China have wiped out and/or subjugated several civilizations that I would consider were a heck of a lot better than theirs. History is written by the winners, but there are always other points of view.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#8104957
12/27/20 10:53 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,154
Hudbone
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,154 |
Outmoded in who’s eyes? Just because one civilization was dominated by another into extinction doesn’t mean it wasn’t “practical” . . . Thank you for helping to prove my point. Thank you.
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Hudbone]
#8104965
12/27/20 11:08 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 91,416
bill oxner
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 91,416 |
Outmoded in who’s eyes? Just because one civilization was dominated by another into extinction doesn’t mean it wasn’t “practical” . . . Thank you for helping to prove my point. Thank you. X2
Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8105044
12/28/20 12:36 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,429
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
|
|
kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,429 |
Indians very much, or at least very much more than we, lived in harmony with the land. But then you have to ask, what were their options. You cannot accurately compare the two societies. You have to look at each based in their time, place, and knowledge.
Same with the Buffalo hunters. Yes we can call them “disgusting.” But that is not accurate or fair either. Any more than judging slave owners based on our “enlightenment” of today. Right or wrong, the beauty of history is to simply see the lives that people lived. Surviving and changing to enhance life as best they could. To learn is wise, to judge based on a complete different time and period is simply foolish. What if all we learned about native Americans living in harmony in a “edenic” continent was all wrong? A little research into the topic and i think you will find the native americans very actively terraformed, modified flora, at times was very gluttonous of animal wastage, and were very much aware of what they were doing (intentionality) and were quite a bit more advanced (in knowledge of certain areas geographically and topically) than we give credit for in the historical record “we all learned”...meaning our concept they were just naturalistic “live and let live, go with the flow and harmony of nature” is almost completely wrong. This has little bearing on much other than to say the concept that the bison almost going extinct being solely looked at as a white mans problem, and fortunately we have been able to bring them back to big sustainable herds (95% on private lands), but native americans were part and parcel to hide hunting and tongue hunting while leaving massive numbers of dead bison laying to rot. The rest of your post i agree with, using todays morality to judge yesteryears events is faulty. I don’t know if some, surely, but I don’t think most think the early people lived in an “edenic” continent. Not in the truest since of a “garden of eden.” If that were the case, as in the garden, meat would have not been eaten. Ha. I would, or certainly was not pushing the idea of a perfect harmony early people’s lived. However, the simple technology of the time would not permit a path for extinction. I am sure you can find many examples where early people were not good stewards, even where waste were displayed. The concept of monetary gain was not feasible on a large enough scale to have led the native people to whole sale exterminations. It would have been extremely “cost prohibitive” in their time and life. They certainly were not “naturalist” in the modern sense, yet they lived/existed in a a more natural environment. You also, must evaluate the native based on pre/post European exposure. Aside from massive expansion of horses via indian horse traders, there was a Very large growing monetary trade, lots of evidence all over NM and CO of trade with southern and central American civilizations, macals, pottery etc The North America tribes where steadily hammering down on the bison, well before colonization of the eastern shore. The Indian horse trade orginating from central/southern America was well established after spanish influence in the America’s. The introduction of the horse was the beginning to the end of the Bison. Utilization and dependence of bison was a horse introduction cause/effect. Now if you want to go back pre horse(pre 1492 -1504) then you would have a point. With that said first official colony was 1607 and Lewis and Clark started 1803.... Huge time gap. North American Europeans may be credited with the quicker extermination of bison by livestock disease and market gunning but wheels where set into play well before NA was officially colonized. The scared horse.....
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: bill oxner]
#8105063
12/28/20 12:56 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,429
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
|
|
kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,429 |
Who wrote get rid of the buffaloes and you will be rid of the Indians? Buffalo wasn't a main stay until the horse found it's way via Indian trade. It literally caused the extinction of some tribes and explosive growth of others.... All happening well before the colonies where established.
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8105069
12/28/20 01:02 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 25,250
Creekrunner
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 25,250 |
 Indubitably. Ya know...some come here "to teach." 
...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8105128
12/28/20 01:54 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,154
Hudbone
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,154 |
No matter how endearing, how great the lifestyle sounds and disregard & dismiss whatever you wish to ignore, their wife of life was immediately outdated when the Europeans came over.
Individuals can still choose to live somewhat like Indians, but as a society it is no longer functional. Hasn't been for quite some time.
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8105179
12/28/20 02:48 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,261
Sniper.270
OP
Veteran Tracker
|
|
OP
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,261 |
Touché. As May very well be said about our way and function in the near future. Ironic in its own right. Maybe China will say that about us.
Proverbs 2
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8105256
12/28/20 04:11 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,154
Hudbone
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,154 |
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Hudbone]
#8105299
12/28/20 04:56 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,993
Texas buckeye
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,993 |
No matter how endearing, how great the lifestyle sounds and disregard & dismiss whatever you wish to ignore, their wife of life was immediately outdated when the Europeans came over.
Individuals can still choose to live somewhat like Indians, but as a society it is no longer functional. Hasn't been for quite some time. Maybe a proper way of putting that is the way of life was not ready for the diseases the Europeans brought over. I am fairly certain the native Americans could have gone toe to toe (for a much longer time, at least) with the rudimentary muskets and muzzeloaders had they actually been given a real chance. Remember, breach loading rifles let alone rifling didn’t become a widespread availability until civil war era. Again, we are comparing a group of people who lost near 90% of its people before the real “fight” took place. Just look at the native americans were able to do when a concerted effort was undertaken against the white man. And figure if there 8-9x the number of indian fighters, would be a different history for sure. But like the “war with china” and how they are winning it without a shot being fired, the war for the americas was won well before the first shots were actually fired.
Last edited by Texas buckeye; 12/28/20 04:59 AM.
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8105374
12/28/20 12:10 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,154
Hudbone
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,154 |
Maybe a proper way of putting "that" is to understand what actually happened and quit referencing white apologist crapola about manifest destiny. This 90% mortality figure you keep spouting as gospel has a hard time with my smell test. 90%? Can any disease or sets of diseases be that efficient, that lethal? They didn't tear up Europe with those numbers. Seems here you are simply giving the Indians a losers' limp and not allowing yourself to confront reality/history.
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8105420
12/28/20 01:35 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 18,554
ducknbass
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 18,554 |
This bunch could argue circle's on what day of the week it is.
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8105467
12/28/20 02:23 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,154
Hudbone
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,154 |
Sniper and even TX Buck make great points which stimulate civil discourse.
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8105581
12/28/20 03:36 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,433
freerange
THF Trophy Hunter
|
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,433 |
My daughter has a masters in history and teaches at a university but she didnt get that from me. I dont have a clue which of yall may be more so right or wrong but you are all may more versed on the subject than me. I thought John Wayne killed most of em. Yall should pool your efforts and tweak your differences and write a book. I would read it since it would mostly all be news to me. Carry on(glad its staying civil.)
At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: ducknbass]
#8105583
12/28/20 03:40 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,457
TonyWornick
Pro Tracker
|
|
Pro Tracker
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,457 |
This bunch could argue circle's on what day of the week it is. That's not true. Yes it is, no it's not.
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8105588
12/28/20 03:50 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,324
Dave Davidson
THF Trophy Hunter
|
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,324 |
Interesting discussion
Ya know, I once read that Genghis Kahn killed enough Chinese to effect the climate in Asia. I wouldn't know.
Without a sense of urgency, nothing ever happens.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley, Rancher Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Hudbone]
#8105605
12/28/20 04:03 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
Maybe a proper way of putting "that" is to understand what actually happened and quit referencing white apologist crapola about manifest destiny. This 90% mortality figure you keep spouting as gospel has a hard time with my smell test. 90%? Can any disease or sets of diseases be that efficient, that lethal? They didn't tear up Europe with those numbers. Seems here you are simply giving the Indians a losers' limp and not allowing yourself to confront reality/history. You need to read up a little on acquired immunity and introduced diseases. By 1800 the NA population was down to about 600,000. ![[Linked Image]](https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/pics/userpics/2020/12/full-24111-271880-c58cfd8c_916b_48eb_b4a8_ad00070df127.png)
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
|
|
|
|
Re: Buffalo Hunts
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8105718
12/28/20 05:22 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,154
Hudbone
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,154 |
Impressive quote and still hard to fathom. Even so, it is an obfuscation.
|
|
|
Moderated by bigbob_ftw, CCBIRDDOGMAN, Chickenman, Derek, DeRico, Duck_Hunter, hetman, jeh7mmmag, JustWingem, kmon11, kry226, kwrhuntinglab, Payne, pertnear, rifleman, sig226fan (Rguns.com), Superduty, TreeBass, txcornhusker
|
