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Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8075219 12/04/20 12:42 AM
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I did something similar years ago. We ate both deer. I couldn’t just waste a deer.


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Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: tailchaser93] #8075230 12/04/20 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by tailchaser93
If the deer was only 80 yards away you didn’t look very hard, now if the same scenario happened to me I wouldn’t waste either deer, but I wouldn’t call a game warden either even if it was an honest mistake. Also you should’ve been looking in the morning instead of hunting.


I agree.

The person who pays their dues at the range knows they will find their deer if they only keep searching for however long it takes to see where it fell. It's the ones who refuse to pay their dues who are willing to throw in the towel more quickly.

Also, if this were a lease, consider your 2021 buck tag already spent. Poor shooting and/or wasting meat should never be rewarded.

Last edited by Texas Dan; 12/04/20 01:03 AM.

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Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: tailchaser93] #8075244 12/04/20 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by tailchaser93
IAlso you should’ve been looking in the morning instead of hunting.



This


Originally Posted by bill oxner
I have a little bitty one. Think that will do?

Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8075270 12/04/20 01:14 AM
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Interesting... popcorn


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Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8075343 12/04/20 01:56 AM
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You stated "5 minutes before dark" can you please elaborate.
Was is 5 minutes before dark?
or 5 minutes before last legal shooting light?


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Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Texas Dan] #8075433 12/04/20 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
I would call the game warden to see what he/she wants you to do.


Do you also call the police when you look down and realize you have been speeding?

To me, if the GW so happens to show up and gives your friend a ticket, then so be it. Then he should tell the judge his story, be honest, and take whatever comes. But I think it’s crazy for him to go track down a GW when it sounds like he gave a good search (at least one he was good with) but couldn’t find the first one. Personally I would have been out there looking the next morning and not hunting, but that’s just me.

I also agree with redchevy’s post above on tagging both deer.

Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Greg] #8075458 12/04/20 02:56 AM
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So at legal sunset, you got 30 minutes. 5 minutes before that time ran out. And on the searching for the deer, hunt for him with everything you can muster. Do circle sweeps every 15’ out. 80 yards straight out in every direction and in tough brush is a challenge. I’ve seen pastures where one misplaced step in the dark puts someone in the hospital with a broken hip.

Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: hook_n_line] #8075700 12/04/20 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by hook_n_line
Tag one or the other and one has to be left laying.


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Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8075789 12/04/20 01:16 PM
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Great question to explore all kinds of legal and moral/ethical issues.

On the day that you shot the first buck you searched for 2.5 hours without finding blood, confirmation of a hit or the animal itself. That sounds like a reasonable attempt to me and probably fulfills any legal requirement. However, one might ask whether there wasn't a moral obligation for you to search a bit the next morning when you had good light to work with?

You took the shot "5 minutes before dark" which means that, if twilight lasts say 20-30 mins after sunset, then you took the shot within legal shooting hours. While the shot was legal one might question whether it is ethical to takes shots at unwounded game so late in the day for exactly the reason you experienced? i.e. light conditions at that time are not good for following up.

If the law defines circumstances under which a matter must be reported to a game warden, and your scenario fits the definition then I guess you are legally required to report it. The same as if there was a law requiring you to report yourself for going over the speed limit but I doubt such a law exists. However, there is also the view that it is [b](morally)[/b] the right thing to report it to the GW even if it's not legally required. Some suggest a moral alternative - self-regulation by forgoing next season's buck to compensate for taking two this season. All very interesting.

Lastly, on the law that says you have to leave the first deer behind. I understand the reason for that law. Similarly, in SA, if you knock over and kill a wild animal with your car you have to leave the carcass there. You may not take it. However, some people find it morally reprehensible to allow a perfectly good carcass to rot. My late dad grew up in abject poverty on an island in Greece after the second world war. Eventually he was shipped off to an uncle in South Africa at age 16 because there were more opportunities here. My dad was one of those who battled with wastage. It upset him deeply if something went to waste and I have seen it with many other people too. I think my dad would have been one of those who would have taken both deer so that they did not go to waste, and then shot one less the next season.

Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8075831 12/04/20 01:52 PM
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3. Do you keep the first buck and trash the second?
What do you do?

So Huntmaster what was done? Inquiring minds want to know.

Seems some folks are wondering why no effort was expended the next morning, me too..

Last edited by fishdfly; 12/04/20 01:53 PM.
Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Dimitri] #8075857 12/04/20 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Dimitri
Great question to explore all kinds of legal and moral/ethical issues.

On the day that you shot the first buck you searched for 2.5 hours without finding blood, confirmation of a hit or the animal itself. That sounds like a reasonable attempt to me and probably fulfills any legal requirement. However, one might ask whether there wasn't a moral obligation for you to search a bit the next morning when you had good light to work with?

You took the shot "5 minutes before dark" which means that, if twilight lasts say 20-30 mins after sunset, then you took the shot within legal shooting hours. While the shot was legal one might question whether it is ethical to takes shots at unwounded game so late in the day for exactly the reason you experienced? i.e. light conditions at that time are not good for following up.

If the law defines circumstances under which a matter must be reported to a game warden, and your scenario fits the definition then I guess you are legally required to report it. The same as if there was a law requiring you to report yourself for going over the speed limit but I doubt such a law exists. However, there is also the view that it is [b](morally)[/b] the right thing to report it to the GW even if it's not legally required. Some suggest a moral alternative - self-regulation by forgoing next season's buck to compensate for taking two this season. All very interesting.

Lastly, on the law that says you have to leave the first deer behind. I understand the reason for that law. Similarly, in SA, if you knock over and kill a wild animal with your car you have to leave the carcass there. You may not take it. However, some people find it morally reprehensible to allow a perfectly good carcass to rot. My late dad grew up in abject poverty on an island in Greece after the second world war. Eventually he was shipped off to an uncle in South Africa at age 16 because there were more opportunities here. My dad was one of those who battled with wastage. It upset him deeply if something went to waste and I have seen it with many other people too. I think my dad would have been one of those who would have taken both deer so that they did not go to waste, and then shot one less the next season.


Hunting ethics are always subjective to the person and the times.

That being said, sometimes the letter of the law is not the intent of the law. Even a person trying to do the right thing would be subject to game violations.

One case I personally saw was a city guy in a Dodge Challenger hit a deer on the highway. Just clipped it, and broke it's neck. Small spike... It was still alive and struggling to get up, head flopping about. Now the letter of the law would be to leave it, or call a game warden. But who knows how long it would take to get one out there? I promptly put the buck down. Another guy who was going home from work stopped and asked if I was going to take the deer. I told him I had no use for it. He said his family could really use the meat, and he just lived about a half mile from there, and would I wait until he went home and brought back a pickup to load the deer. He was driving a compact car. I told him I'd save him the trouble and put it in my pickup and follow him home.

I did so. His family was very much in need of the meat.

Did I break the law? Yep. Did I feel bad about it? Nope. Not for a second.

Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8075903 12/04/20 02:28 PM
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Finding a wounded animal at night without initially seeing evidence of a fatal hit is challenging for even the most seasoned trackers. Sunlight helps tremendously. Personally, I would not have been in the stand hunting the next morning. I would have been looking for the deer I shot at the evening before.


All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: BbarVRanch] #8075912 12/04/20 02:33 PM
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Let’s keep it at, “What would you do?” I will say, two different game wardens were called and presented with the same scenario. Both were taken back, long delays in what they would do, both did a lot of paused silence gaps on the phone. One leaned(it seemed in between his thinking) that he would rip you a new bunn hole; the other seemed more lenient, trying to figure out what he would do-kinda like he has some discretion in his job, but doesn’t want to lose it by making the wrong decision?
On the time of the shot; a great tidbit for new hunters:
The absolute hottest time to see a great buck “can” be the 30 minutes before sunrise to the 30 after sunset. Never ever leave your blind before that time. Watch your phone and “exactly” at sunset, count every minute. Time after time, after time, I have seen the dominant buck watch all the other deer, and because he’s smart, he won’t come in the field or to the feeder till the last 3 minutes.

Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8075928 12/04/20 02:39 PM
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If it was cold overnight, you could be breaking the law once you discovered the buck, under 'waste of game'.


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Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8075942 12/04/20 02:47 PM
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On the time of the shot; a great tidbit for new hunters:
The absolute hottest time to see a great buck “can” be the 30 minutes before sunrise to the 30 after sunset. Never ever leave your blind before that time. Watch your phone and “exactly” at sunset, count every minute. Time after time, after time, I have seen the dominant buck watch all the other deer, and because he’s smart, he won’t come in the field or to the feeder till the last 3 minutes.


And then the deer runs off after being shot and you have to go find it in the dark, then find it the next day..

Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8075954 12/04/20 02:54 PM
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What would do? If I were a GW, I'd find a way to issue a ticket for someone without the means to find a dead deer within 80 yards of where it was hit after an hours long search. After talking about hunting the next AM, not searching and then only to indicate a 2nd "big buck" was taken, I am certainly thinkiing (i.e.: hoping) this was not a 1st hand experience. Who lets a deer rot? Who doesn't sight in their gun if they they think they may have missed?

And after all that, we get this advice
Originally Posted by Huntmaster
On the time of the shot; a great tidbit for new hunters:
The absolute hottest time to see a great buck “can” be the 30 minutes before sunrise to the 30 after sunset. Never ever leave your blind before that time. Watch your phone and “exactly” at sunset, count every minute. Time after time, after time, I have seen the dominant buck watch all the other deer, and because he’s smart, he won’t come in the field or to the feeder till the last 3 minutes.


Leaving your blind before legal time expires and ethically shooting are two separate things. A suggestion here would be to not shoot after sundown. Give the animal 15 minutes to bleed out and maybe it can be found if it falls, say, 80 yards away.

Had this exact situation occur here in these parts (thick cedars) and the igmo hunter lost his privileges right then and there.

Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8076049 12/04/20 03:46 PM
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As others have mentioned, if it happened the way it was described no laws were broken to me... and that is IF it happened the way it was told. My moral compass points in a different direction though.

80 yards can be right there in an open field or it could be a near impossible find in tangled thorny brush. Sounds as if in the story it was right there.

Personally it would have to be a very cold night before i would consider eating the deer the next day. I left a frozen 3 pound vacuum packed package of cured bacon in my truck overnight once on a cool night. The next morning i found it cursed myself out in my head and aloud and put it in the fridge. That evening i cooked some of it and it was good. I froze some and ate the rest the next day. The stuff the next day was questionable. I thawed out the frozen stuff and the color had changed and it smelled when i cooked it. I didnt eat it. No way i believe vacuum packed cured bacon that is frozen is worse preserved than a wounded animal at body temp with guts in.


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Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8076076 12/04/20 03:58 PM
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Tag the big one and kick the other in a bush.


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Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8076101 12/04/20 04:12 PM
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I think this is an example of what is legal vs. what is ethical. From the story, sounds like the hunter is legal if he tags the 2nd buck. However, not finding a buck just 80 yards away means one of two things. The hunter didn't really put forth sufficient effort to find the deer, or the hunter needs to learn how to be a better tracker.

Just a few weeks ago, we had a guest hunter at the ranch. We came in the 1st night and he said that he shot a doe and searched for an hour. Stated that he found a blood trail, but that it petered out quickly and he lost the deer. He was done searching and said the deer was lost. OH HELL NO! We grabbed a few lights and went out there. I found the blood trail where it petered out, followed tracks and disturbed leaves and picked up the blood trail within 20-30 yards of where it was lost. It took all of 15 minutes to find that deer. I have had deer that would not start leaving a blood trail for 50 or 60 yards after being shot.

Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8076125 12/04/20 04:33 PM
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Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8076215 12/04/20 05:32 PM
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This is an interesting question. I've had this happen with inexperienced hunters on our ranch when we ended up finding deer #1 after they shot deer #2. But it's never been a legal issue. I've got some grace for them because everyone has to learn and these situations are tough.

I can't see how it benefits anyone to waste a deer. I would assume the hunter feels pretty badly about it. Best scenario is if someone else could tag it and take it and call it a year.

Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: Huntmaster] #8076224 12/04/20 05:45 PM
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A friend let his FIL shoot a doe on his place a few years ago. He shot at the first one and it rand off... so "he missed" repeat one more time shot and it ran so he missed again. The third time the deer fell dead. When he went down to the feeder there was one dead deer under the feeder and two just inside the brush line. Luckily it was not an AR county lol


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Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: redchevy] #8076233 12/04/20 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by redchevy
A friend let his FIL shoot a doe on his place a few years ago. He shot at the first one and it rand off... so "he missed" repeat one more time shot and it ran so he missed again. The third time the deer fell dead. When he went down to the feeder there was one dead deer under the feeder and two just inside the brush line. Luckily it was not an AR county lol


Confused on why AR applies if he was shooting does. If he can't tell the difference then he definitely shouldn't be out there

Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: TLew] #8076244 12/04/20 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TLew
Originally Posted by redchevy
A friend let his FIL shoot a doe on his place a few years ago. He shot at the first one and it rand off... so "he missed" repeat one more time shot and it ran so he missed again. The third time the deer fell dead. When he went down to the feeder there was one dead deer under the feeder and two just inside the brush line. Luckily it was not an AR county lol


Confused on why AR applies if he was shooting does. If he can't tell the difference then he definitely shouldn't be out there

Just that in most AR counties you cant shoot does, I chose poor wording.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: DEER DILEMMA [Re: redchevy] #8076247 12/04/20 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by redchevy
Originally Posted by TLew
Originally Posted by redchevy
A friend let his FIL shoot a doe on his place a few years ago. He shot at the first one and it rand off... so "he missed" repeat one more time shot and it ran so he missed again. The third time the deer fell dead. When he went down to the feeder there was one dead deer under the feeder and two just inside the brush line. Luckily it was not an AR county lol


Confused on why AR applies if he was shooting does. If he can't tell the difference then he definitely shouldn't be out there

Just that in most AR counties you cant shoot does, I chose poor wording.

I can take five does in my AR county.

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