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New Property Boundary lines. #8067922 11/28/20 11:43 PM
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Hello THF, my brother and I finally found a little place we liked and can afford in Northern Uvalde county. The realtor we bought the place from had went out and painted a couple pins at tbe front by the road he says are the boundaries. However this past weekend i downloaded a gps app and found the exact coordinates stated on the deed are different than tbe pins. This app clearly shows the property lines and my location relative to said lines. It is 11 acres next to other similarly sized places so very important I stay within my own boundaries. My question is am I right to disregard the pins in favor of my actual gps coordinate points ? I have checked with county CAd website Nd the property matvhes up with what the app says. Thanks in advance for your time THF

Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8067928 11/28/20 11:51 PM
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Either the seller needs to provide a survey(in writing) or you need to get a new one.


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Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8067930 11/28/20 11:51 PM
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I'd use land survey and county CAD assuming they match

Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8068271 11/29/20 11:21 AM
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The pins are evidence of survey. Whether the realtor tagged the right ones is the question...

Also, GPS isn't that accurate. At least what accuracy you can get from any civilian type handheld, or phone app. They can have 3 meters of accuracy/error.

County CAD websites, and some of the programs that show property lines/owner info in apps are probably based on the same GIS information, and are not a legal survey, but a representation of what they believe a reasonable facsimile of all properties in the county, once they twist and squeeze them all together from deed records. Lots of room for error.

Get a survey by a licensed surveyor. At least check to see what surveyor subdivided the land, and contact them. They may be able to use their existing data and come out and mark the corners accurately at a fraction of the cost of a complete new survey. The surveyor's name, address and phone number will be on the subdivision plat filed at the County Clerk's Office, and are free to examine by the public. They may charge you a buck or two if you want a copy.

Don't trust apps, or GPS when it comes down to it.

Enjoy the new land, and hope you get that boundary question answered to your satisfaction.

Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8068301 11/29/20 12:54 PM
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Call a Surveyor and get him out there.


"Hey, where the white women at?"
Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: snake oil] #8068367 11/29/20 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by snake oil
Call a Surveyor and get him out there.

I agree

Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8068426 11/29/20 03:07 PM
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Are you going to fence it? If not don't worry about it


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Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8068670 11/29/20 06:49 PM
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the CAD map's are wrong all the time



Get a survey


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Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8068682 11/29/20 07:04 PM
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Did you not get a survey? You should have required the seller to provide a current survey. Now it will be your expense if you want to know where your boundaries are. CAD maps are wrong quite often as stated above.

Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8068745 11/29/20 08:26 PM
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I would strongly suggest getting a survey done, then you know and your neighbors know.

My Grandfather bought 80 acres from a neighbor where the fences that marked the boundaries had rotted and are laying in the woods. 5 years later, they got a new neighbor who was "certain" that the property lines were 15 yards further into our land and another neighbors land leading to 30+ years of tension that only becomes important during deer season.

We just bought land a year ago where we only have 1 neighbor where we share a lot line. He told my wife that he wasn't satisfied with the amount of surveyors stakes along our shared lot line, so he took it upon himself to "put in a handful more, where I know the line to be". We just fenced the lot line and by golly, I picked up another 10', which took about 3/4 of a ATV trail he has passing parallel to the line.

Save yourself a bunch of grief and trouble and spring for a survey. Saying "My realtor told me that the lot line is here" isn't going to get you anywhere.


"Sometimes, too much to drink is barely enough"

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Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8069015 11/29/20 11:37 PM
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I have only bought one property without a survey and that was a property only bordering other properties owned by us. Seller should pay for survey to prove what you are buying is what he is telling you.

Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8069259 11/30/20 01:59 AM
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Thanks for the replies everybody. Seems like the best thing to do will be get it surveyed. Onx hunt has been a good app for me in previous years with public land however the surveyers will be forsure.

Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8069422 11/30/20 03:41 AM
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I'm a licensed professional land surveyor. I am glad that you decided to get the property surveyed. That being said, I would like to comment on a couple of things in your original post that are fairly common misconceptions among people. You said that you downloaded a GPS app and found the exact coordinates for your property. No you didn't. There is no app or GPS unit that is capable of giving you the coordinates of your property lines or corners; not even survey grade GPS units. Survey grade units give us measurements and we use those measurements, along with other evidence, to calculate the correct positions of property lines and corners, after which we can find those coordinates. Accurate property lines and corners are not stored in any GPS or app. Hunting apps, property line apps, and even local government maps overlayed on aerial photos are drawn as "best fit", and in small print have a disclaimer stating that they are not a survey and should not be considered as one. They can be off anywhere from 3 feet to 20 feet or more, and can be off different amounts in different places because they are drawn in to "best fit" the ground and deed descriptions, which don't always line up. In a nutshell, you can find your deerstand but not your property lines with them. They will get you in the ballpark.
Second, you asked, "My question is am I right to disregard the pins in favor of my actual gps coordinate points?" I guess I probably covered that above somewhat, but to reiterate, the GPS is not accurate enough (and neither is the county GIS map) to get you to your true property lines & corners, and the pins may well be correct, even thought they don't line up with the lines drawn on the aerial photograph. Remember those lines were drawn on a satellite view by someone in some office somewhere trying to make the deed description fit over what the ground looks like, and many times they just don't line up very well, which can throw lines off significantly. The only thing that can determine if those pins are correct or not is an actual on the ground survey, which you are wisely having done.

I'm not going off on you, lol. I'm writing all this out in hopes that everyone who reads it will get educated a little bit in regard to GPS, aerial mapping, the accuracy of mapping apps, etc., since I have encountered these same issues a lot. I appreciate learning about things I don't know all that much about also!

Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: shawno] #8069467 11/30/20 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by shawno
I'm a licensed professional land surveyor. I am glad that you decided to get the property surveyed. That being said, I would like to comment on a couple of things in your original post that are fairly common misconceptions among people. You said that you downloaded a GPS app and found the exact coordinates for your property. No you didn't. There is no app or GPS unit that is capable of giving you the coordinates of your property lines or corners; not even survey grade GPS units. Survey grade units give us measurements and we use those measurements, along with other evidence, to calculate the correct positions of property lines and corners, after which we can find those coordinates. Accurate property lines and corners are not stored in any GPS or app. Hunting apps, property line apps, and even local government maps overlayed on aerial photos are drawn as "best fit", and in small print have a disclaimer stating that they are not a survey and should not be considered as one. They can be off anywhere from 3 feet to 20 feet or more, and can be off different amounts in different places because they are drawn in to "best fit" the ground and deed descriptions, which don't always line up. In a nutshell, you can find your deerstand but not your property lines with them. They will get you in the ballpark.
Second, you asked, "My question is am I right to disregard the pins in favor of my actual gps coordinate points?" I guess I probably covered that above somewhat, but to reiterate, the GPS is not accurate enough (and neither is the county GIS map) to get you to your true property lines & corners, and the pins may well be correct, even thought they don't line up with the lines drawn on the aerial photograph. Remember those lines were drawn on a satellite view by someone in some office somewhere trying to make the deed description fit over what the ground looks like, and many times they just don't line up very well, which can throw lines off significantly. The only thing that can determine if those pins are correct or not is an actual on the ground survey, which you are wisely having done.

I'm not going off on you, lol. I'm writing all this out in hopes that everyone who reads it will get educated a little bit in regard to GPS, aerial mapping, the accuracy of mapping apps, etc., since I have encountered these same issues a lot. I appreciate learning about things I don't know all that much about also!



As a Surveyor myself, I agree. Very well written, Shawn.

Never trust an “app” or any GIS based map (County Appraisal District maps included) . For lack of a better term, these are “eye balled” in and should be used for for reference purposes only.

Hiring a Surveyor is your only route. Have him stake your property lines at a suitable increment. IE every 100ft, 200 ft, 500 ft etc.

I hope the “pins” that your realtor flagged up actually fit with your, and your adjoining deed-platted lots!! They should leave that to the Surveyors.... That’s what we get paid to do!!

Feel free to PM with any questions.


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Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8069591 11/30/20 11:51 AM
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Hey shawno, welcome and hang around awhile.

welcome texas


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Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8069598 11/30/20 12:09 PM
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When I was 19 I worked for the BLM (Bureau of land management) Dept. of the interior. Our job was to find survey markers left by a surveyor from the 1800's that separated California and Nevada around Lake Tahoe by Allexey W. Von Schmidt. We actually found most of his brass markers buried under piles of stones, (most were no longer piles) or scribed into huge pines. These locations where then connected to 5 satellites before confirmation. He measured everything in Chains 66ft. He was So accurate that if there was a stump where a tree should have been, we would use the previous and next points to confirm the location. There would be typically a scar on the tree and we would debark it until a chunk fell out and there would be his coordinates carved into the wood. It was amazing, and we actually changed the official borders between the 2 states a few feet in each direction.

Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: Hudbone] #8069603 11/30/20 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Hudbone
I have only bought one property without a survey and that was a property only bordering other properties owned by us. Seller should pay for survey to prove what you are buying is what he is telling you.

Typically buyer pays for survey and seller pays for title policy. I'm a RPLS #1938 been at this a while.


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Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8069723 11/30/20 02:13 PM
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Truth from the surveyors. These pins you found, if there is a plastic cap with surveyors info embossed, could be the corner marker.

Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: pine knott] #8069759 11/30/20 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by pine knott
Truth from the surveyors. These pins you found, if there is a plastic cap with surveyors info embossed, could be the corner marker.



Those plastic caps are not too long lived in some cases. Rats eat the plastic off, old surveys weren't required to be capped, etc.

Surveyors do tag an iron rod or other monument they deem acceptable now though. Usually with a brass washer with their RPLS number on it.

I smile when remembering some corners found had 5-6 iron rods within a foot, with different tags on them... laugh Rather than just accepting the corner as set, and showing the difference in the deed or record and what evidence was found on the ground.

One particular surveyor was famous for that. Problem was over the years he'd survey from a different direction, and contradict himself.

Back years ago, some state boards would give a licensed engineer a survey license for the application cost. It showed... smile

Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: snake oil] #8069815 11/30/20 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by snake oil
Originally Posted by Hudbone
I have only bought one property without a survey and that was a property only bordering other properties owned by us. Seller should pay for survey to prove what you are buying is what he is telling you.

Typically buyer pays for survey and seller pays for title policy. I'm a RPLS #1938 been at this a while.


I believe you, just not the way we have done it. I have also purchased properties without appraisals, but never without a survey (except as referenced above).

Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: Hudbone] #8069822 11/30/20 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Hudbone
Originally Posted by snake oil
Originally Posted by Hudbone
I have only bought one property without a survey and that was a property only bordering other properties owned by us. Seller should pay for survey to prove what you are buying is what he is telling you.

Typically buyer pays for survey and seller pays for title policy. I'm a RPLS #1938 been at this a while.


I believe you, just not the way we have done it. I have also purchased properties without appraisals, but never without a survey (except as referenced above).



I’ve been in real estate going on 13 years now and in 98% of cases in farm and ranch deals Seller pays for/provides survey


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8069829 11/30/20 03:18 PM
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As they say in Missouri, "Show me".

Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: RudyG55] #8069830 11/30/20 03:19 PM
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Get a survey.

Had our place surveyed when we bought it, two of the fence corners are off, one by almost 5 foot the other by just shy of 3 foot. One is off on our side and the other is off on the neighbors side so it evens out. Since the fences are good we have a survey know where the pins are and are just leaving as is for now.


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Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: reeder05] #8069844 11/30/20 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by reeder05
Originally Posted by shawno
I'm a licensed professional land surveyor. I am glad that you decided to get the property surveyed. That being said, I would like to comment on a couple of things in your original post that are fairly common misconceptions among people. You said that you downloaded a GPS app and found the exact coordinates for your property. No you didn't. There is no app or GPS unit that is capable of giving you the coordinates of your property lines or corners; not even survey grade GPS units. Survey grade units give us measurements and we use those measurements, along with other evidence, to calculate the correct positions of property lines and corners, after which we can find those coordinates. Accurate property lines and corners are not stored in any GPS or app. Hunting apps, property line apps, and even local government maps overlayed on aerial photos are drawn as "best fit", and in small print have a disclaimer stating that they are not a survey and should not be considered as one. They can be off anywhere from 3 feet to 20 feet or more, and can be off different amounts in different places because they are drawn in to "best fit" the ground and deed descriptions, which don't always line up. In a nutshell, you can find your deerstand but not your property lines with them. They will get you in the ballpark.
Second, you asked, "My question is am I right to disregard the pins in favor of my actual gps coordinate points?" I guess I probably covered that above somewhat, but to reiterate, the GPS is not accurate enough (and neither is the county GIS map) to get you to your true property lines & corners, and the pins may well be correct, even thought they don't line up with the lines drawn on the aerial photograph. Remember those lines were drawn on a satellite view by someone in some office somewhere trying to make the deed description fit over what the ground looks like, and many times they just don't line up very well, which can throw lines off significantly. The only thing that can determine if those pins are correct or not is an actual on the ground survey, which you are wisely having done.

I'm not going off on you, lol. I'm writing all this out in hopes that everyone who reads it will get educated a little bit in regard to GPS, aerial mapping, the accuracy of mapping apps, etc., since I have encountered these same issues a lot. I appreciate learning about things I don't know all that much about also!



As a Surveyor myself, I agree. Very well written, Shawn.

Never trust an “app” or any GIS based map (County Appraisal District maps included) . For lack of a better term, these are “eye balled” in and should be used for for reference purposes only.

Hiring a Surveyor is your only route. Have him stake your property lines at a suitable increment. IE every 100ft, 200 ft, 500 ft etc.

I hope the “pins” that your realtor flagged up actually fit with your, and your adjoining deed-platted lots!! They should leave that to the Surveyors.... That’s what we get paid to do!!

Feel free to PM with any questions.

up


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Re: New Property Boundary lines. [Re: txtrophy85] #8070072 11/30/20 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by Hudbone
Originally Posted by snake oil
Originally Posted by Hudbone
I have only bought one property without a survey and that was a property only bordering other properties owned by us. Seller should pay for survey to prove what you are buying is what he is telling you.

Typically buyer pays for survey and seller pays for title policy. I'm a RPLS #1938 been at this a while.


I believe you, just not the way we have done it. I have also purchased properties without appraisals, but never without a survey (except as referenced above).



I’ve been in real estate going on 13 years now and in 98% of cases in farm and ranch deals Seller pays for/provides survey


I looked back into some of my records and you guys are right, guess I've been retired too long.LOL


"Hey, where the white women at?"
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