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Thermal sticky idea #8012651 10/16/20 05:56 PM
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It just occurred to me that it would be very useful to have a sticky posting of price ladder(s) for thermal units. The idea is to show the best option(s) for $1000/$1500/$2000 etc., on up to perhaps $10k. Figure one ladder for thermal sights and the other for monoculars. Obviously this would change over time, and I can see how vendors might vary in opinion, but there should be a way to work out the details. It seems the forum gets asked, "What's the best X I can buy for $Y" every other day. This would be a convenient way to answer all of those questions at once.

Just a thought ...


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Re: Thermal sticky idea [Re: syncerus] #8012727 10/16/20 07:17 PM
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Hope this helps:

From best to entry level

Thermal Riflescopes:

(Pl76559) Trail 2 LRP XP50 (MAP: $5,999.97)
TRAIL 2 LRF XP50 is a new generation of thermal imaging sights from PULSAR with built-in precise laser rangefinder, HD AMOLED screen, video recorder, Wi-Fi module and long-life quick-change battery. Image capture is based on a quality thermal imaging sensors, <40mK NETD, 17 um pixel pitch, 50 fps. 640x480 resolution of thermal imagining sensor.


(PL76543) Thermion XP50 (MAP: $4,999.97)
Styled after a traditional day scope, the Thermion XP50 Thermal Riflescope’s all-metal (magnesium alloy) body mounts perfectly with standard 30mm rings and single-piece scope mounts. Beyond looks, the Thermion XP50 is anything but traditional, boasting crisp 640x480 microbolometer resolution, 17μm pixel pitch, 8-color-pallette imaging on a full-color 1024x768 HD AMOLED display and a jaw-dropping 2,500-yard heat-signature detection range. Additional Thermion XP50 features include picture-in-picture, 15 reticles in up to 4 colors—black, red, white and green, integrated still image and video recording with audio on 16gb of internal storage, Wi-Fi with Pulsar’s Stream Vision app, 50Hz frame rate for fluid motion imaging and an onboard rechargeable battery pack. The Thermion XP50 weighs 31.7 ounces and is recoil rated to handle .375 H&H, 9.3x64 and 12-gauge


(PL76558) Trail 2 LRF XQ50 (MAP: $4,299.97)
TRAIL 2 LRF XP50 is a new generation of thermal imaging sights from PULSAR with built-in precise laser rangefinder, HD AMOLED screen, video recorder, Wi-Fi module and long-life quick-change battery. Image capture is based on a quality thermal imaging sensors, <40mK NETD, 17 um pixel pitch, 50 fps. 384x288 resolution of thermal imagining sensor.


(PL76523) Thermion XQ50 (MAP: S3,799.97)
Pulsar’s Thermion thermal XQ50 riflescope is a harmony of power, technology and practicality. Its 384x288 enhanced thermal sensor detects heat signatures up to 2,000 yards away, giving shooters vivid images of their quarry on a 1024x768 HD AMOLED display. With 3x-12x magnification, 4x continuous, digital zoom and Picture-in-Picture digital zoom, the XQ50 guarantees target acquisition in even the most adverse weather conditions. The XQ50 also boasts 8 color viewing modes, 5 rifle profiles, 10 variable electronic reticles and one-shot zeroing with freeze functionality. To make the memories last, the XQ50 also features Wi-Fi connectivity, built-in recording with recoil activation, 16GB of memory and compatibility with the Stream Vision App, enabling shooters to livestream their ventures. The XQ50 also has 5+ hours of battery life with a B-pack mini Li-Ion and external power supply adaptability.


(PL76526) Thermion XM50 (MAP: $3,799.97)
While the Thermion XM50 may look like a run-of-the-mill riflescope, all similarities end with a 30mm tube and traditional-style, all-metal (magnesium-alloy) optic housing. The Thermion XM50 is an advanced thermal imaging riflescope with 320x240 microbolometer resolution, 12μm pixel pitch, 5.5- 22x magnification, a full-color 1024x768 HD AMOLED display and a jaw-dropping heat-detection range of up to 2,500 yards. Additional Thermion XM50 features include picture-in-picture, 8 color palettes, 15 reticles in up to 4 colors—black, red, white and green, integrated still image and video recording with audio on 16gb of internal storage, Wi-Fi with Pulsar’s Stream Vision app, 50Hz frame rate for fluid motion imaging and an onboard rechargeable battery pack. The Thermion XM50 is IPX7 waterproof rated (submersible in up to 3 feet of water for up to 30 minutes), weighs 31.7 ounces and is recoil rated to handle .375 H&H, 9.3x64 and 12-gauge.


(PL76522) Thermion XQ38 (MAP: $3,299.97)
Pulsar’s Thermion thermal XQ38 riflescope is a harmony of power, technology and practicality. Its 384x288 enhanced thermal sensor detects heat signatures up to 1,500 yards away, giving shooters vivid images of their quarry on a 1024x768 HD AMOLED display. With 2.5x-10x magnification, 4x continuous, digital zoom and picture-in-picture digital zoom, the XQ38 guarantees target acquisition in even the most adverse weather conditions. The XQ38 also boasts 8 color viewing modes, 5 rifle profiles, 10 variable electronic reticles and one-shot zeroing with freeze functionality. To make the memories last, the XQ38 also features Wi-Fi connectivity, built-in recording with recoil activation, 16 GB of memory and compatibility with the Stream Vision App, enabling shooters to livestream their ventures. The XQ38 also has 5+ hours of battery life with a B-pack mini Li-Ion and external power supply adaptability.


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Re: Thermal sticky idea [Re: syncerus] #8012870 10/16/20 09:31 PM
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From best to entry level



Thermal Monoculars



(PL77402) Helion 2 XP50 (MAP: $3,999.97)
Pulsar’s Helion 2 XP50 has finally been unveiled! This ultramodern monocular has a NETD (noise-equivalent temperature difference) of <40mK, which means the Helion 2 can detect slight variations in thermal radiation of an adult-sized object up to 2,000 yards away. The Helion 2 also has a 640x480 AMOLED display, 8 color palettes and 2.5x-20x base digital magnification, to capture every image with stunning clarity. With Wi-Fi connectivity, a built-in video recorder and camera, the Helion 2 enables users to livestream their ventures via the Stream Vision app. Additionally, the Helion 2 can operate in temperatures ranging from -25C(-13F) to 50C(122F). Along with an IPX7 waterproof rating, updatable software and rechargeable IPS7 battery with life up to 10 hours, the Helion 2 is the undisputed standard of modern monocular technology.


(PL77428) Axion LRF XQ38 (MAP: $2,799.97)
AXION LRF XQ38 compact thermal imaging monocular with built-in laser rangefinder from PULSAR for hunting, forestry, security, search and rescue, outdoor recreation and sports. For image acquisition unit utilizes a new generation of 17 µm thermal imaging sensors with 384x288 pixels resolution.


(PL77427) Axion XQ38 (MAP: $2,499.97)
AXION XQ38 compact thermal imaging monocular from PULSAR for hunting, forestry, security, search and rescue, outdoor recreation and sports. For image acquisition unit utilizes a new generation of 17 µm thermal imaging sensors with 384x288 pixels resolution.


(PL77423) Axion XM30S (MAP: $1,999.97)
Weighing 8.8 ounces, the pocket-sized Axion XM30S Thermal Monocular packs a powerful punch. The Axion XM30S boasts an upgraded, full-color 1024x768 HD AMOLED display, 8-color palettes and 4.5x-18x digital magnification. Its 320x240, 12-micron thermal sensor provides a 1,400-yard detection range, and the simple user interface enables users of all skills to operate it. Along with a 3-second startup, the Axion XM30S has Wi-Fi connectivity, compatibility with the Stream Vision App, integrated still-image and video recording with audio, picture-in-picture mode and 16gb of internal storage. Built with rugged reliability in mind, the Axion XM30S features a textured magnesium-alloy body and is IPX7 waterproof-rated (submersible in 3 feet of water for up to 30 minutes).


(PL77425) Axion Key XM30 (MAP: $1,599.97)
The Axion Key XM30 has a 320x240 resolution, 12um pixel pitch core with a 1,300 yard detection range and 4x digital zoom ( continuous zoom and 2x, 4x stepped zoom) Lightweight and rugged magnesium alloy housing with a B-Pack mini power system including a picture in picture digital zoom. The Axion Key XM30 has a LCOS microdisplay, external power supply adaptable and multiple color viewing modes. IPX7 waterproof rated.


(PL77424 Axion Key XM22 (MAP: $1,199.97)
The Axion Key Xm22 has a 320x240 resolution, 12um pixel pitch core with a 1,000 yard detection range and 4x digital zoom ( continuous zoom and 2x, 4x stepped zoom) Lightweight and rugged magnesium alloy housing with a B-Pack mini power system including a picture in picture digital zoom . The Axion Key XM22 has a LCOS microdisplay, external power supply adaptable and multiple color viewing modes. IPX7 waterproof rated


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Re: Thermal sticky idea [Re: syncerus] #8013616 10/17/20 05:26 PM
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So only Pulsars go on the list??? That seems rather limited.


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Re: Thermal sticky idea [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8013644 10/17/20 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
So only Pulsars go on the list??? That seems rather limited.


I listed what we carry as that's the product I'm familiar with. We used to also carry Flir but they no longer cater to the consumer market.


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Re: Thermal sticky idea [Re: syncerus] #8014832 10/18/20 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by syncerus
It just occurred to me that it would be very useful to have a sticky posting of price ladder(s) for thermal units. The idea is to show the best option(s) for $1000/$1500/$2000 etc., on up to perhaps $10k. Figure one ladder for thermal sights and the other for monoculars. Obviously this would change over time, and I can see how vendors might vary in opinion, but there should be a way to work out the details. It seems the forum gets asked, "What's the best X I can buy for $Y" every other day. This would be a convenient way to answer all of those questions at once.

Just a thought ...


The idea is good but the problem is what I think is best and what gr8fuldoug, Double Naught Spy, and 5 other people think will all be different and it doesn't mean any of us are wrong. Some people like chocolate and some like vanilla. It's a good idea in theory but the problem is we would all have different opinions and as new scopes are constantly being introduced, it changes all the time.

By far the best solution is for someone to find a good dealer who uses all these scopes personally and can explain which scope is best for them and why, based on real world field experience. There are some great dealers, most right here in Texas that are more than qualified to do just that.

Again, I like you're thought but it never works out as easily as you'd think it would.

Jason


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Re: Thermal sticky idea [Re: Outdoor Legacy] #8015359 10/19/20 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Outdoor Legacy

The idea is good but the problem is what I think is best and what gr8fuldoug, Double Naught Spy, and 5 other people think will all be different and it doesn't mean any of us are wrong. Some people like chocolate and some like vanilla. It's a good idea in theory but the problem is we would all have different opinions and as new scopes are constantly being introduced, it changes all the time.

By far the best solution is for someone to find a good dealer who uses all these scopes personally and can explain which scope is best for them and why, based on real world field experience. There are some great dealers, most right here in Texas that are more than qualified to do just that.

Again, I like you're thought but it never works out as easily as you'd think it would.

Jason



Right. Best is extremely relative. I have what I think is the best rifle scope, a Trijicon IR Hunter MKIII 60 mm 4.5x. However, it does not have the best thermal sensitivity. Compared to most other rifle scopes, it has a narrow FOV. I do NOT feel that it is the best value for the money. It is not good for shooting fast moving targets at close range. It is not the lightest scope. However, as a distance rifle scope, it is outstanding for my wants and needs.

Though no longer made, I used to argue that the Pulsar Apex XQ50 was the absolute best value for the buck because it was a rifle scope that was more than adequate at typical hunting distances (inside 200 yards), could be pressed to be use farther, and it cost about half or less than what the higher end scopes were going for at the time but was just as huntable. It really gave you the best value for the buck.

When I was part of Third Coast Thermal, the only Pulsar RXQ30V (cheapest Pulsar thermal weapon sight) that I can think of where the customer was truly pleased with the purchase was a guy that only needed to dispatch barnyard vermin such as coyotes, raccoons, etc. that were raiding his chickens and whatnot. The RXQ30V has a poor image, at best. It never looks to be quite in focus and you can't adjust the focus. It is cheap and no frills. Most people we sold them to ended up selling the off and getting something better, or keeping them as a spare and getting something better. Basically, they weren't happy with the functionality of the unit, but this one customer was. He never needed to shoot over 75 yards and could shoot anything that wasn't a chicken or a cow, so the clarity and identification issue was real high on his list of essential traits. He just needed to be able to shoot raiders and he found the optic suited his needs perfectly and for the least amount of money.

I know from previous exchanges that Jason and I rank different features and capabilities differently on scopes. Given access to any available, there is a good chance that he and I would not choose the same scope to hunt with on the same hunt. Neither one of us would be wrong in our decision.

So it comes down to figuring out what is best for a given person's known and expected wants/needs relative to their budget.


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Re: Thermal sticky idea [Re: syncerus] #8015422 10/19/20 11:42 AM
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A sticky thread for best options for a given amount is good in theory, but not in practice. As previously stated, we all value different features differently. Having been around this game longer than the vast majority of dealers, the thing that I have always thought was missing was the ability to see, touch and operate all the makes and models in one setting. By now, I am pretty certain that isn't likely to happen on any beneficial level for a variety of reasons. I remember way back in what seems to be 1955 now, that DNS hosted a gtg in which folks brought all sorts of gear to his place. You could "try out" pretty much anything on the market. This is particularly helpful to new users, but is also useful to experienced users. At another event, I helped Tyer at UNV take a ton of scopes out to the east side of Lake Ray Hubbard for folks to try out. He had built a mount for like 6 scopes and had other mounts for single scopes. I believe that was before Pulsar even had thermals. That was a THF group and before the FB hog and thermal pages. A large group of folks showed up. Believe it or not, that was when the ATN Thor was king.

These days everybody and his dog is a dealer and/or expert. Dealers often push only what they sell for good reason, they like to eat. I have avoided being attached to any company over the years because I wanted my thoughts to be my own. Anytime someone is tied to a company and depends on them for their livelihood or product, their advice/opinion is tainted to some level...often to a high level. Unless or until I actually use something myself, input from others doesn't hold a lot of weight unless it is someone that i know well enough to trust the data. Pig Popper and DNS started about the same time I did. Pig Popper is thorough and precise with his reviews. DNS and I have hunted together several times and shared ideas for many years now.

Still, best value for the money is very subjective and becomes a personal decision. Don't trust internet fan boy advice. I know the industry hasn't addressed it well, but...touch it, feel it, use it before you buy.

Re: Thermal sticky idea [Re: syncerus] #8016515 10/20/20 05:59 AM
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I would say this would have been pretty easy to do 5-7 years ago but now the market is way too broad. Plus you'll have a lot of folks pushing what they believe in selling or only what they have access to. Like what was said above. Too many dealers that have a vested interest in promoting the one or two products they are able to sell or have available. Theres now a lot of good thermal makers out there and the units have improved greatly.

I like to think that we're pretty subjective in that we carry everything and try to help the customer on an individual basis. It's tough to put together a list like this because best isn't always best for everyone. For example, a coyote hunter in West Texas needs usually something different than the fella in the woods in East Texas shooting pigs in smaller cuts and clearings. Lots to choose from.

It's best to find a dealer that you trust and to also do your own research also. Like Jason mentioned, its best to also only deal with folks who have hands on experience and actually use this stuff. Theres plenty of folks selling this stuff that have never even used it and don't know their product. Lots of them.

It would be awesome to be able to put each unit in the hands of a potential buyer, and that was probably somewhat possible at one point. Now not so much. The demand is so high and supply so low, that most dealers have a really tough time keeping a large volume of units in stock. Many times those thermals are spoken for before they ever get to the shop and wind up going right back out the door the same day they came in.


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Re: Thermal sticky idea [Re: dfwroadkill] #8016658 10/20/20 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dfwroadkill
I remember way back in what seems to be 1955 now, that DNS hosted a gtg in which folks brought all sorts of gear to his place.

Still, best value for the money is very subjective and becomes a personal decision.


Well said , just one minor change - I believe we had that event back in. 2015 wink

And to your other point - I’m one of those guys that would choose a lesser quality / performing scope to save $ 1749.99

I try and report the good and bad on any scope regardless of the price tag - it’s a real pain in the butt though when you do a field test and prepare all the materials and the scope is a dog - usually if you can’t find much info on a scope , well......


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Re: Thermal sticky idea [Re: Pig_Popper] #8016738 10/20/20 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Pig_Popper
Originally Posted by dfwroadkill
I remember way back in what seems to be 1955 now, that DNS hosted a gtg in which folks brought all sorts of gear to his place.

Still, best value for the money is very subjective and becomes a personal decision.


Well said , just one minor change - I believe we had that event back in. 2015 wink


I'm getting old. The beginning of 2020 seems like forever now. laugh Maybe DNS will come along, but I believe the gtg at his place was way before 2015. The event with Tyler could have been 2015 though....or maybe I just have it wrong.

Originally Posted by Pig_Popper
And to your other point - I’m one of those guys that would choose a lesser quality / performing scope to save $ 1749.99

I try and report the good and bad on any scope regardless of the price tag - it’s a real pain in the butt though when you do a field test and prepare all the materials and the scope is a dog - usually if you can’t find much info on a scope , well......


I know we differ about choice on scopes where quality is involved. I care less about bells and whistles or cost when I purchase, preferring the best sight picture I can get. Older eyes need it. Making movies became boring and the last thing I want to do when hunting is add buttons to push or phones to link. However, I have always understood your thoughts and reasoning as concerns bang for the buck. It makes a whole lot of sense to a lot of folks. I also know that you have always tried to be as fair as you can on reviews and that can be a hard job when the provider of the product expects to hear nothing but good. Best to ya!

Last edited by dfwroadkill; 10/20/20 02:26 PM.
Re: Thermal sticky idea [Re: syncerus] #8016863 10/20/20 04:13 PM
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That get together was back in October of 2013. There were a lot of people there. People brought gear for show and tell. Ident Marking came and even brought a SAW for people to shoot and a bunch of NV gear as well as their highly marketed super cool Raytheon W-1000 thermal (what I lovingly called a lunchbox thermal because of its size).

dfwroadkill makes a HUGELY significant point about going hands-on/eyes-on with a thermal. Experienced dealers can be helpful. Owners can be helpful, but this is what I take away from such endorsements. Both parties want to help you, but you have to understand that both parties are BIASED.

I don't care which dealer it is, they all have the incentive to make a sale, to make a profit. It is like going to a car dealership and getting a recommendation from the salesman on which car you should buy. That is a bias that can never be overlooked. More over, they are generally going to try to get you in a product they sell. When asked what is the best, they are going to provide you with the best that they have to offer, not what their competition is offering. Imagine that. This is not to say that the dealers are bad people, but their job is to sell you their gear. If they don't do enough of that, they go out of business.

Then there are the owners. I have been continually amazing by the owners who purchased a given a scope and are now experts on the industry just because they own a Pulsar RQX30v and they know that it (helps) kills hogs just as dead as a FLIR T60 or an NVision Halo LR. No doubt they are happy with whatever thermal they have purchased because it was better than the flashlight they used to have taped to their barrel or their old Gen I Russian night vision that they were using previously. I remember chatting with one guy and he was going on and on about how wonderful his thermal was and he would tell people that his model was what they should be buying. I don't know if he truly felt that way or was just so danged embarrassed to have a defective thermal that he wasn't going to say anything bad about his $12K purchase. Never mind that it would cut off during recoil about 1/3 of the time. The guy actually told me, "Yeah, but that only happens on about 1/3 of the shots. The rest of the time, the image is beautiful." It did have a great image and was a wonderful scope, except for that silly little safety hazard of a problem....but I see this all the time with people talking about what they own. He did finally get it repaired, but but he wasn't the only owner that had that problem. Rarely are the willing to 'fess up to the shortcomings and problems that they have with their thermals. How many times have you see people post that that RXQ30v never appears to actually be in focus? Not often, but none appear to be in focus, LOL. They are in focus, but they image is just that bad. People will buy a brand known for terrible customer service and tell you it is getting better despite not having had to use it or having a singular experience that was positive. Ignorance of inexperience and fan boy biases are things that like dealer biases, just should not be overlooked.

Ultimate Night Vision's program of letting folks rent a scope and then applying the rental to the purchase price with/is a great program. I haven't dealt with them in years, but what a great way for people who can't get directly with the dealer for a field show-and-tell to experience how a scope or scopes work. Of course, it locks you into buying from UNV or being out the rental fees if you go to buy elsewhere. The great thing about this program is that you can draw your own conclusions without a salesperson selling you on the scope. Getting to use a buddy's thermal is cheaper, but most of your buddy's won't have many options to share with you. Maybe you are considering a Pulsar Thermion XQ38 and your buddy only has the XP50. You will get to learn about the controls of the Thermion series and the basic size of the scope, but you won't get the same thermal experience from the XQ38 as you would from the XP50. You may be sorely disappointed.

Last edited by Double Naught Spy; 10/20/20 04:18 PM.

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Re: Thermal sticky idea [Re: syncerus] #8016995 10/20/20 05:43 PM
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Well stated DNS....

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