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Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws #8002352 10/08/20 10:42 AM
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Exactly how is the "Cubing" of preference points supposed to improve the Drawn Hunts system? Thanks


Don't talk the talk if you didn't walk the walk.
Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8002445 10/08/20 12:27 PM
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It's supposed to help the people who have a lot of preference points, gives them that many more tickets in the draw.


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Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8002621 10/08/20 03:07 PM
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Basically, if you only have one preference point than you would multiply it this way: 1x1x1=1 point

If 2 points than 2x2x2=8 points

Those that may have 15 points have a better chance: 15x15x15=3375 points

So, when they put in all the chances in a particular hunt, the person with 15 preference points has 3375 chances compared to the guy with 2 preference points with 8 chances. Those that have been putting in on a particular hunt for years and years will have a great chance of getting picked.

Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8002900 10/08/20 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Cajun Raider
Exactly how is the "Cubing" of preference points supposed to improve the Drawn Hunts system? Thanks

It doesn't improve it at all, it's lottery rigging designed to give long term participants an exponentially higher chance of winning a draw. It's a complete garbage idea. Whoever came up with the idea, as well as all those responsible for its implementation, should be flogged and fired.

Last edited by Binary; 10/08/20 07:21 PM.
Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8002937 10/08/20 07:48 PM
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Thanks, that is what I thought but it hasn't worked for me so far.


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Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8004142 10/09/20 06:46 PM
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It's made to help the long time people that only go after the really good hunts. I always put in for a lot of hunts just to get out and see places even if they weren't great. The way I looked at it is a guy with 15 points (15 entries) really doesn't have a much better shot than me with 3 points (3 entries) Now that they cube it's an entirely different ball game. Your chances of drawing with 5 points is drastically lower than someone with 15. My hope is if they stick with it there are far more people in the less than 5 point range than there are with 15+ points, so it should start evening out a little more. The days of a guy coming in there first year and getting to hunt will be long gone. My first year I think I won 5 hunts. I'll definitely be more careful with which hunts I put in for, but that's a double edged sword. I'm sure other people will be as well. So the well regarded hunts are going to have people that only put in for that hunt making the average point holder having far more points than even this year. 20 point holders complained about not winning the chap after 20 years because a guy with 5 points could win it. In a few years it's just going to make it to where having 15+ points is a prerequisite for even having a chance at drawing those hunts. I'm happy some of these guys finally drew, but I think it's overall bad for the state. It's like buying a lottery ticket everyday for 20 years and being mad that you haven't one millions.

Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8004536 10/10/20 12:24 AM
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So if I put in for every hunt this year, is it done by category with the points? Next year I should have 7 points for Mule Deer? or how does this work?

Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8004828 10/10/20 11:23 AM
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It's done by category. If you put in for only 1 hunt in mule deer or all the hunts in mule deer you get only 1 point for that year.

Every year you put in for a category, regardless of how many times you put in to that category that year, you get one preference point.

Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8005360 10/10/20 10:22 PM
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It’s a great idea for very high point holders. But in categories wHere I have less than 10 points it stinks. Since they changed the system to where you could enter in more than Hunt per category I have been drawing hunts pretty regularly and have less than 4 points in all deer categories. I wish they would have left it alone.

Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8005888 10/11/20 04:19 PM
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I personally like it. In the previous 12 years, I was drawn for 3 hunts, despite putting in for almost every category yearly. This year, I have already been drawn for 3 hunts.

While I empathize with those that don't have as many points, I can remember many of us being angry and feeling like we were getting screwed when TPWD started allowing folks to enter for multiple hunts in the same category. I think it is a good compromise to reward those that have been playing the game for a long time (many much longer than me) and allows people to enter for as many hunts as they want in the same category and gives a chance to those that don't have as many points by having multiple entries in the same category.

Last edited by NDN98; 10/11/20 04:20 PM.
Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8007109 10/12/20 04:24 PM
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I think it is a great idea and I disagree that first time people can't be drawn. I think first time people have a great chance if they apply for the lesser hunts. I think the people with 20+ points are really going to focus on the super good hunts. I was tired of going standby and having 20+ points for that category and all of the "drawn" hunters applied for the first time. That was unfair and now PP are really going to help


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Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8007174 10/12/20 05:03 PM
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So, people like lottery rigging when it benefits them? WOW, big surprise ROFL

So stupid lol

Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Binary] #8007180 10/12/20 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Binary
So, people like lottery rigging when it benefits them? WOW, big surprise ROFL

So stupid lol


"Rigging" is not what I would call it. May of us that have been playing this game for years were not happy when TPWD started allowing hunters to apply for multiple hunts in the same category, because it dramatically decreased our chances of getting drawn unless you too entered into multiple hunts in the same category too. While I wasn't happy with that change, I wouldn't have said it "rigged" the system to those with deeper pockets....even though it did favor those that had more disposable money.

The way TPWD is doing it with the cubing makes it closer to the draw systems in other states that have true preference points.

Last edited by NDN98; 10/12/20 05:12 PM.
Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: NDN98] #8007201 10/12/20 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by NDN98
Originally Posted by Binary
So, people like lottery rigging when it benefits them? WOW, big surprise ROFL

So stupid lol


"Rigging" is not what I would call it. May of us that have been playing this game for years were not happy when TPWD started allowing hunters to apply for multiple hunts in the same category, because it dramatically decreased our chances of getting drawn unless you too entered into multiple hunts in the same category too. While I wasn't happy with that change, I wouldn't have said it "rigged" the system to those with deeper pockets....even though it did favor those that had more disposable money.

The way TPWD is doing it with the cubing makes it closer to the draw systems in other states that have true preference points.

Hey, well, if other states participate in lottery rigging as well, it must be okay!

End story is that if you make one person's $3 lottery ticket more likely to win than another person's $3 lottery ticket, for any specific draw, that's lottery rigging. It's a fraud being committed by TPWD for the benefit of long standing applicants.

Concerning your "rigged" system comment - allowing EVERYONE to pay $3 for a ticket doesn't, in any way, tilt the scales in any specific draw towards anyone. "Lottery Rigging" is quite literally, tilting the scales so that not everyone has an equal chance to win, even though they paid an equal price to enter. Anything that results in one person's $3 being valued more or less than someone else's $3 IS lottery rigging... that's the standard. Skewing the odds to favor one person over another is lottery rigging. Allowing people to pay $3 to enter into an additional draw is not, in any way, lottery rigging - it doesn't tilt the scales in that drawing to benefit any person over another person.

The previous point system was also lottery rigging, although it was tolerable since the amount of tilt was mostly insignificant....but cubing, crossing the line to completely fking riduculous.

Last edited by Binary; 10/12/20 05:45 PM.
Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Binary] #8007246 10/12/20 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Binary
Originally Posted by NDN98
Originally Posted by Binary
So, people like lottery rigging when it benefits them? WOW, big surprise ROFL

So stupid lol


"Rigging" is not what I would call it. May of us that have been playing this game for years were not happy when TPWD started allowing hunters to apply for multiple hunts in the same category, because it dramatically decreased our chances of getting drawn unless you too entered into multiple hunts in the same category too. While I wasn't happy with that change, I wouldn't have said it "rigged" the system to those with deeper pockets....even though it did favor those that had more disposable money.

The way TPWD is doing it with the cubing makes it closer to the draw systems in other states that have true preference points.

Hey, well, if other states participate in lottery rigging as well, it must be okay!

End story is that if you make one person's $3 lottery ticket more likely to win than another person's $3 lottery ticket, for any specific draw, that's lottery rigging. It's a fraud being committed by TPWD for the benefit of long standing applicants.



Then good luck with your lawsuit against TPWD. Even before this year, one person's $3 ticket was more likely than another person's $3 lottery ticket. While cubing is new, loyalty points/bonus points are not new.

Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: NDN98] #8007254 10/12/20 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by NDN98

Then good luck with your lawsuit against TPWD. Even before this year, one person's $3 ticket was more likely than another person's $3 lottery ticket. While cubing is new, loyalty points/bonus points are not new.


As I already stated, even the previous system was lottery rigging - but was more tolerable...wasn't worth making a big issue over because its effects were insignificant really.... that's not the case with this new nonsense.

My current memorandum of law on the issue is sitting at 70 pages and I'm only about half done covering the legal issues with the system.... I just started the section on discrimination - which is a beast of its own. When it's done, the TPWD and the Attorney General will get a copy....I'll be hand delivering that to the AG. They'll either act to correct the situation or face a lawsuit over it, for sure. Great thing about being an attorney, I don't need to pay one to go play in court... this stuff is fun for me smile

Last edited by Binary; 10/12/20 05:53 PM.
Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8007416 10/12/20 08:29 PM
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I really dislike the new system as it lowers my own odds of drawing in favor of folks who have applied for prized hunts for a long time. I prefer a system where I can apply to major hunts out of state and have a good chance of drawing several lower quality hunts close to home. The new system sucks for that and the net result will be that I hunt a lot less in Texas, spend a lot less money with TPWD, and generally care a lot less about the state of hunting and conservation in Texas.

That being said, I can't imagine how you could argue that this is in any way illegal or discriminatory. The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission has rulemaking authority. As long as they follow the comment process, etc., They can change the draw however they want. What's your argument?

Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8007516 10/12/20 10:02 PM
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"As long as they follow the comment process, etc., They can change the draw however they want"

That's quite a false statement. Federal, State, and local bodies/officials must operate within the confines of the law like the rest of us. Their "rulemaking authority" has its limits. I'm not really surprised that everyday people can't look at the system and see the obvious legal issues that exist ... this is what attorneys are for - skilled legal minds that understand the complexities of the law and how individual or government actions interact with those laws. As I previously said, the issues (outside of one of the giants in the room - discrimination) have already made up 70ish pages worth of legal arguments against the system....it'll likely be double by the time I'm done. You can't possible expect me to simplify that down into layman's terms in an online forum.... nor would I even try. I'll provide those arguments to the AG and relevant party at TPWD when I'm finished.

If you are actually interested in the discrimination portion (which I've only just started to put into the MOL), remember many discrimination laws don't require INTENT but rather focus on EFFECT. I certainly don't think anyone at TPWD intentionally enacted discriminatory policies, but that doesn't mean that the policies enacted didn't have that effect. What I will do is pose a question for you to think about...I've described the new cubing system to dozens of colleagues (all attorneys) and asked them the same question: Is there any way for the new cubing system to have a discriminatory effect on individuals who participate in the TPWD draw hunts - every single one of them have came back to me with essentially the same answer and the same reason why they gave the answer (which is a resounding yes, in case there was any question where I was going with that) - now perhaps this is because they are attorneys and they understand the legal complexities of discrimination law... but, I'm willing to bet that if you think about it hard enough, you'll be able to see what legal minds see. The hint I'll provide is to not focus on intention, but rather effect. Really think about the current public hunting population and the characteristics that define them now, compared to 15, 20, 25, 30, etc.. years ago. And do some basic googling on the major discrimination laws - not just state but federal level. And don't limit yourself to any single type of discrimination like race (which is what most people default to when they hear discrimination), but think about all types of discrimination. And feel free to PM me with the results of your thought process.

Last edited by Binary; 10/12/20 10:10 PM.
Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8007551 10/12/20 10:25 PM
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Binary you do realize that other States have similar point systems where the points are squared. TPWD is the only one cubing that’s I am aware of. Good luck with the lawsuit, but I am not seeing it go anywhere.

Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8007601 10/12/20 11:17 PM
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Binary thank you for putting us simpletons in our place.


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Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8007633 10/12/20 11:59 PM
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1. Montana cubes points.
2. The system rewards experience and loyalty, not age.
3. You're dealing with a rational basis test, which you can't win.
4. If you haven't made your point in 70 pages, you should ask your legal writing professor for a refund.

Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: SherpaPhil] #8007640 10/13/20 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by SherpaPhil
1. Montana cubes points.
2. The system rewards experience and loyalty, not age.
3. You're dealing with a rational basis test, which you can't win.
4. If you haven't made your point in 70 pages, you should ask your legal writing professor for a refund.


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Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8007866 10/13/20 02:30 AM
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"Binary you do realize that other States have similar point systems where the points are squared. "

Why do you believe that matters? People commit murder in other states too, doesn't make it any more legal here. Always found it odd that people based arguments on "but someone else does it!"

"Binary thank you for putting us simpletons in our place."

Wasn't my intention at all, but since you said thanks, I guess I'm bound by social norms to say 'you're welcome'.

Concerning, SherpaPhil's comment - I won't waste more than the few seconds to respond to such a display of ignorance. If you've never written a lengthy memorandum of law, you should get a refund for your entire law degree (which you probably don't actually have - because there is no way an attorney would exhibit such ignorance - God I hope not at least).

All the above is why I don't get into legal arguments online with lay-people and have thus far refused to do so smile It's impossible to discuss complex issues with people who don't have the knowledge to discuss such issues. And I seriously doubt there will be any lawsuit, it's highly unlikely to come to that. In any case, we'll see what happens. I'm not even sure I'll have the time to finish the work this year, free work to address bad state actions takes a back seat to paid work. But I will eventually finish it out and have a sit down with the AG about it.

Enjoy the night gents.

Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: Cajun Raider] #8008410 10/13/20 05:38 PM
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So how do you get these cubed points? Me and a buddy put in for some and didn’t see anything about cubed points
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Re: Cubed Points for Public Hunt Draws [Re: fonzie] #8008422 10/13/20 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by fonzie
So how do you get these cubed points? Me and a buddy put in for some and didn’t see anything about cubed points
[Linked Image]

Yeah, the cubed value isn't going to show up anywhere, it's just what they do to your loyalty points for the draw. So your group loyalty points is 5, cubed is 125 - you got 125 entries for Cap. Of course, someone with 25 LPs got 15,625 entries...so your little 5 is pretty insignificant compared to other people.

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