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Re: The new AR - accuracy [Re: 603Country] #7977037 09/17/20 12:36 AM
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Today, spotting for a POF .308 AR. At 400 yards a round was fired, and I never saw it on the berm. I looked at the rifle, and saw a bolt locked back. I said, "load the mag back up, don't change a thing on the turret and try again." Next shot was on steel.

Last round fired goes somewhere different than the previous ones.


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Re: The new AR - accuracy [Re: HicksHunter] #7977040 09/17/20 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by HicksHunter
Here's my thinking on the last shot conundrum. It's a fact that the first shot and the last shot fire under the exact same conditions and bolt lockup- you wouldn't like the hole in the side of your gun if the bolt was opening before the bullet was long gone.

But what about feeding? ARs feed violently, as evidenced by scratches on the bullet and case after being stripped from the magazine. There is a slight difference between how the last round is handled during feeding as it may be held in a different position by the follower, and it'll feed with less friction. So maybe the last round isn't so beat up during feeding, and doesn't suffer from scratches or a slight change in COAL.

So that's one explanation for what can be different between the first and last rounds. My take? It's all in our heads, and this is just a case of confirmation bias where we look past all the times that the last round groups perfectly.


This seems plausible to me, and could also explain why its more noticeable on cheaper rifles- perhaps a improperly gased rifles accentuate this difference in handling.

Re: The new AR - accuracy [Re: ChadTRG42] #7977052 09/17/20 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ChadTRG42
(I started a new thread so I didn't hijack this thread)

https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/7976727#Post7976727


Alright, let's talk about this last round, bolt lock back on an AR-15 rifle. I just so happened to have a rifle in for load development with an AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel, about a 18" barrel shooting suppressed. The lower is a Palmetto State lower, and I'm not sure what the barrel is. Overall, and very nice AR. I loaded up the test loads with a 123 SST in Hornady brass and CCI #450 primer. The main picture is the entire target with test loads from A to F. I shot loads A through D with a 6th round follower to avoid the bolt lock back. Just for poops and giggles, I went ahead and shot test loads E and F with only 5 rounds in the mag so the bolt would lock to the rear on the 5th shot.

All shot at 100 yards.
Load A shot really well. A .764", 5 shot group, with 6th round loaded as a follower.
Load B and C are stringing and we are out of the accuracy node.
Load D had 3 nice tight shots, but they didn't come in sequence and the group was a little open. I figured I would come into another node on E or F.
Load E, I shot 5 rounds, with the 5th round locking the bolt to the rear. Load E had 4 shots in a .854" group and the 5th round with the bolt locking to the rear went high left. The group opened up to 1.355", 5 shot group. During normal testing, I would NOT load the 5 rounds and shoot 5 rounds. My first round in the mag would be my last follower round, and I would load my 5 test loads on top of that.
Load F shot a 4 shot .733" group and the 5th round bolt lock to the rear opened it up to 1.197", and the round went left.
Conclusion= both Load E and F shot very well 4 shot groups, but the 5th round bolt lock to the rear caused a POI shift. This rifle appears to go left, and maybe slightly high, but certainly left. I gave all groups an honest group to shoot them my best. I was shooting off a front sand bag and rear sand bag, and "driving" the rifle nice and tight.

So what caused this? The recoil impulse is totally different on the last round bolt lock back. The rifle is upset with this change in recoil impulse. What specifically causes the POI shift, I'm not 100% sure. But what I can tell you is, that it is 100% legit and you will NEVER find me shooting a precision shot with the last round locking back, if I can plan ahead on my round counts.

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But the recoil impulse is different due to the bolt not coming forward, the first half (roughly) of the impulse is the same, meaning the recoil impulse is only different AFTER the bullet is gone. That is inarguable. That means its not having any effect on ballistics.

I understand what you are trying to show with your exercise above, but if Im understanding that you were using different recipes per group, then It doesnt give us a real conclusion because you dont have a control group and you changed two variables, not one.

Re: The new AR - accuracy [Re: 603Country] #7977065 09/17/20 12:54 AM
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Two notes

First off, I appreciate being able to have a genuine conversation that hasn't resorts to personal attacks or condescension about this. Thats rare online these days.

Second, you guys have inspired me to try a controlled environment exercise to see what I find out about this. 100 yds, KAC SR-15 MOD 0, some Hornady 73 gr ELDM and a NF NX8 2.5-20. (not what usually sits on that rifle, but for this I want the extra mag). Im going to head out tomorrow and give this a whirl and see what I can see. Im thinking 4x 5 shot groups w/ a "leader" and "follower" round inserted in the mag, and another 4x 5 shot groups w/ mags loaded to 5 rounds. Alternating between 7 round mags and 5 round mags to account for temp changes in the rifle as best as possible. Ill be able to keep track in the order of my shots as well and see if there is any consistency to the change in the first or last bullet in the magazine.

Re: The new AR - accuracy [Re: 603Country] #7981268 09/20/20 05:43 PM
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More shooting with this new AR over the last few days seems to be telling me that I need to run it wet and the bore needs to be relatively clean. What I don’t know yet is how dirty I can let it get before accuracy deteriorates. Might be as low as 25 rounds. That’s not good, or at least not good enough. I wonder what a new very accurate barrel will cost me to buy and get installed.


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Re: The new AR - accuracy [Re: 603Country] #7981297 09/20/20 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 603Country
More shooting with this new AR over the last few days seems to be telling me that I need to run it wet and the bore needs to be relatively clean. What I don’t know yet is how dirty I can let it get before accuracy deteriorates. Might be as low as 25 rounds. That’s not good, or at least not good enough. I wonder what a new very accurate barrel will cost me to buy and get installed.


You're on the right track. The higher the quality of the rifling, the longer the round count it can go between cleaning.


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