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No rattle... #7977832 09/17/20 03:29 PM
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I've lived my entire life spending every possible moment outdoors living in the southwest and had never had what I would consider a "danger close" encounter with a rattlesnake, until the week before last while dove hunting. My dad and I spent about an hour along an overgrown fence line and decided to walk to a corner to see if more birds were flying. After about 30 minutes we walked back to our original position, and a rattlesnake was about 10' from my dove bucket. It was stretched out and we didn't see it until we got about 3 steps away and it coiled up. The movement caught my dad's eye, but the snake never rattled...Another step or two and my dad would have been well within striking distance.

I've heard, and no idea if true, that due to the pressure of hogs that area rattlesnakes are rattling less when approached. Any truth to this? I'm already pretty cautious when in the field, especially because I am pretty hard of hearing, and this reminded me why we always wear snake boots.


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Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7977841 09/17/20 03:34 PM
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No, hogs are not a factor, animals don't evolve that fast. I encounter rattlesnakes a lot more than most (3 the past 5 days) and vast majority don't rattle. Rattlesnakes are pretty docile, have only had a handful rattle at me. If I kick them in the tail or mess with them they usually will.


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Re: No rattle... [Re: Stompy] #7977880 09/17/20 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Stompy
No, hogs are not a factor, animals don't evolve that fast.

The question is, a snakes that rattles, does this scare more predators away or attract more predictors? The theory is that, these days, it attracts more preditors. So it is not that a snake changes their behavior, its that the ones that rattle get killed, then ones that don't rattle live longer, so you end up with snakes that don't rattle.


Its kinda like duck hunting, end of season you have more birds that fly early before legal those that fly after noon. I have heard people say the birds get smart, no just the birds that fly earlier morning during legal get shot, and you are left with birds that don't fly during this times.

JMO.

Re: No rattle... [Re: Guy] #7977889 09/17/20 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Guy
Originally Posted by Stompy
No, hogs are not a factor, animals don't evolve that fast.

The question is, a snakes that rattles, does this scare more predators away or attract more predictors? The theory is that, these days, it attracts more preditors. So it is not that a snake changes their behavior, it that the ones that rattle get killed, then one that don't rattle has much live longer, so you send up with snake that don't rattle.


.


I owned the ranch before hogs ever showed up here, they didn't rattle then either.


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Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7977922 09/17/20 04:09 PM
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I'm pretty sure reptiles can learn (and learn quickly). I volunteered at the Dallas zoo reptile house back in the 70's (when Dave Barker was there) and we had specimens that showed a surprising amount of intelligence. The ones that come to mind were snakes, tortoises and old world chameleons.

I know a guy that breeds Chameleons and they act like pet dogs. Trippy seeing a bright red/blue/green two foot long lizard climb up on his arm to get its back and belly scratched.

Re: No rattle... [Re: Stompy] #7977931 09/17/20 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Stompy
Originally Posted by Guy
Originally Posted by Stompy
No, hogs are not a factor, animals don't evolve that fast.

The question is, a snakes that rattles, does this scare more predators away or attract more predictors? The theory is that, these days, it attracts more preditors. So it is not that a snake changes their behavior, it that the ones that rattle get killed, then one that don't rattle has much live longer, so you send up with snake that don't rattle.


.


I owned the ranch before hogs ever showed up here, they didn't rattle then either.

Are hogs the only predator? I don't know, humans are a predictor. A snake that rattles is more likely to get shot/killed off, then ones that don't. I'm just applying logic on why snakes would rattle less these days, which you hear a lot of. But what I think you are saying, snakes rattle as much today as they always have, which maybe true I do not know.

Re: No rattle... [Re: Guy] #7977948 09/17/20 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Guy
Originally Posted by Stompy
Originally Posted by Guy
Originally Posted by Stompy
No, hogs are not a factor, animals don't evolve that fast.

The question is, a snakes that rattles, does this scare more predators away or attract more predictors? The theory is that, these days, it attracts more preditors. So it is not that a snake changes their behavior, it that the ones that rattle get killed, then one that don't rattle has much live longer, so you send up with snake that don't rattle.


.


I owned the ranch before hogs ever showed up here, they didn't rattle then either.

I think you are saying, snakes rattle as much today as they always have, which maybe true I do not know.

Correct

https://sibleynaturecenter.org/explore/read/have-rattlesnakes-stopped-rattling

Stéphane Poulin, curator of herpetology at the Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum, said the theory that snakes have recently stopped rattling is a myth.“In the last 25 or 30 years I haven’t seen any change overall with rattlesnakes,” Poulin said. “Overall, rattlesnakes just don’t rattle very often. Most of the time they use their camouflage and try not to be seen. Rattling and striking are unconnected. A snake can rattle all it wants without striking or strike without rattling.”


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Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7978093 09/17/20 06:30 PM
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Not sure about the less rattling part, I feel like that is the case, but I defiantly have not collected enough data for an informed option. I do know I am seeing fewer rattles now than 20 years ago. Are they staying better hidden? Are my eyes that much worst? Are there fewer snakes because the pigs eat them? I don't know, but I like it!!!!

...there is a difference between evolution by means of beneficial mutations, which in turn improves survival, and changes due to selectively breeding for certain traits.
Selective breeding can rapidly change the population that is geographically impacted. If some blood lines of snakes are more disposed to rattling than others, and a newly introduced predictor (hogs) tends to find and eat a higher percentage of the ones that rattle, then the "quite" gene will rapidly become more prevalent in the gene pool in an give area. This will behave much more like selective breeding than evolution.


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Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7978100 09/17/20 06:34 PM
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Funny thing, I've owned my place for 6 years, and to look at it, would seem to be snake heaven, but in the 6 years this is only the 2nd rattlesnake I've seen on the property, and technically, 1 of those was on my neighbor's place, but just across the fence. I know they are there, and I am out in the bush ALOT, but just rare for me to see. Not that I'm complaining...


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Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7978196 09/17/20 07:52 PM
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I evolved just reading this chain

Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7978200 09/17/20 08:00 PM
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I would guess when I have encountered rattlesnakes out in the open they only rattled about half the time at least unless cornered. At my lease I felt one strike my cowboy boots three times from under the step of my camper trailer before I realized what was happening. It never rattled. Two times rattlesnakes in the sunflowers near a cattle guard while dove hunting in recent seasons both never rattled. They stayed stretched out in the sun as man and dog walked past them. I don't shoot them in front of the dog. They only rattle because they want to be left alone, not stepped on, etc.

Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7978214 09/17/20 08:23 PM
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Just like people, snakes have different personalities believe it or not. Some are aggressive and some not so much, all being the same breed.


See y’all around the campfire.

Originally Posted by Grizz
Wingshooting is like sex for me - I love doing it but I'm just not that good at it.

Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7978250 09/17/20 08:41 PM
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They will all rattle if you don’t hit them correctly with the hoe.

Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7978289 09/17/20 09:08 PM
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Killed 3 last year in Southern OK. Large Adult coiled up and rattled .. others ran for it . all went to snake heaven. We tend to see more of them in October before the first freeze looking for groceries.

Re: No rattle... [Re: Stompy] #7978328 09/17/20 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Stompy
No, hogs are not a factor, animals don't evolve that fast. I encounter rattlesnakes a lot more than most (3 the past 5 days) and vast majority don't rattle. Rattlesnakes are pretty docile, have only had a handful rattle at me. If I kick them in the tail or mess with them they usually will.


Especially with the size brain they have. I've had numerous encounters and I think only one or two have rattled. Make them mad and they let you know.

Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7978656 09/18/20 02:17 AM
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I have I been hit by one...it never made a sound. That was a diamond back, 43 years ago. (Thank God for those old rigid PVC snake bite leggings.)


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Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7979008 09/18/20 01:59 PM
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A good case for gaiters or snake boots anytime you are in their proximity, especially in warm weather.


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Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7979089 09/18/20 03:00 PM
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I almost stepped right on top of one in an ag field, he was rattling plenty but I had ear plugs in because I was dove hunting. it was the tail shaking and the snake coiling up that caught my eye right before I was about to step on it. I have seen plenty others that didn't make any noise.

Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7979247 09/18/20 05:13 PM
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If they were smart enough to not rattle so the hogs wouldn't notice, they'd be smart enough to stay off the roads so they don't get flattened.

Re: No rattle... [Re: jetdad] #7979345 09/18/20 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jetdad
If they were smart enough to not rattle so the hogs wouldn't notice, they'd be smart enough to stay off the roads so they don't get flattened.


Ha! Good point...


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Re: No rattle... [Re: jetdad] #7979573 09/18/20 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jetdad
If they were smart enough to not rattle so the hogs wouldn't notice, they'd be smart enough to stay off the roads so they don't get flattened.



You think have that backwards. The theory is not that some learn not to rattle and thus escape the hogs.

The theory is that the ones more likely to rattle get eaten more often because hog notice them, leaving the quite ones to breed and produce more snakes likely to be quite.


I still have not seen the evidence that supports it, I just think ii is a possibility that should not be discredited.


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Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7979605 09/18/20 10:49 PM
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My point is, it would take many many years for a simple minded, small brain animal to evolve. Since the hog problem is not that old, relatively speaking, avoiding hogs would fall more into the adaptation time frame. I just don't happen to think they have the ability do that.

Re: No rattle... [Re: nak] #7979610 09/18/20 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by nak
Originally Posted by jetdad
If they were smart enough to not rattle so the hogs wouldn't notice, they'd be smart enough to stay off the roads so they don't get flattened.



You think have that backwards. The theory is not that some learn not to rattle and thus escape the hogs.

The theory is that the ones more likely to rattle get eaten more often because hog notice them, leaving the quite ones to breed and produce more snakes likely to be quite.


I still have not seen the evidence that supports it, I just think ii is a possibility that should not be discredited.


If that was the case none would ever rattle. What about coyotes, Bobcats, roadrunners, hawks, owls, fox and the many other predators they've faced over thousands of years. Hogs have nothing to do with snakes not rattling.


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Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7979620 09/18/20 10:57 PM
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A genetic mutation of being silent, meaning enough snakes that rattle that do not survive compared to enough rattlesnakes that don't rattle and do survive to pass those genetics to the next generation repeated enough generations that the species evolves would probably take 1000s of generations or 100s of thousands. Feral hogs have not been around long enough. There would also be as many or more populations of rattlesnakes in the areas that are not exposed to feral hogs as those that are so the genetics in regard to survival living with feral hogs would constantly dilute such a genetic evolution. If rattlesnakes are evolving to become more silent or growing shorter smaller rattles it would more likely be because of humans, not hogs. We have been killing them when found since the beginning of our time. But that kind of evolution would not be a something we would be able to notice within a single lifetime. Outside of genetics, rattlesnakes do not have the power of reason.

Re: No rattle... [Re: Dalroo] #7979659 09/18/20 11:36 PM
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Stompy sniper John you're not going to change these people's mind with facts

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