I've been using these two powders for years, and have used them on the same calibers and used the same powder charge. Darned if I can tell a difference in performance of the 2 powders. Now I confess that I'm a 200 yard shooter at the most, and am a hunter, not a competitive shooter. Have any of you swapped around on these powders, and if you have, have you seen any difference?

Nope, W748 and BLC2 either.

I use H4895 in my 204 ruger works great. Never used any imr 4895.

Looking at the Burn Rate Chart, I noticed that powders I use frequently in small capacity cases are clustered quite close together:
117) IMR 8208
118) Ramshot TAC
119) Hodgdon H 4895
120) VitaVuori N 530
121) IMR 4895
I know that it is considered a deadly sin to use the BRT to select a powder, and I always start out with what's suggested by the reloading manuals or what I can dig up on line. But in the case of the 2 4895's, I don't think the risk is too great; and as I said, I've never had any indication that there's a big difference in performance between these two.

Would be interesting to measure the MV of your loads with the 2 separate powders...

I just might do that, JJH; and if/when I do, I'll come back and post the results for everyone. I'm thinking that it won't be too different, but I've been wrong so many times before, I'm gonna wait until the chrony speaks to me.

That might not tell you much unless you chronographed several lots of each. Different lots of the same powder will vary too. Some of the older reloading manuals would show H414 and W760 loads together at very differing velocities. Some higher, some lower depending on the powder lot. Now we all know they have always been the same powder, just different lots. Hodgdon now shows them as the same velocities.

They are 2 totally different powders, made in 2 different continents. But they are nearly identical in burn rate. They will be very similar in performance, but you would see some variations between each depending on the lot of powder you compare. But they are very similar in burn rate to get similar results between them.

Since it's too hot to plow and the creeks ain't risin' around here, I went to the reloading room and loaded up 5 rounds each of a proven, 25 grain load of H4598 and an experimental load of I4598 for my 6mmARC. When/if the weather ever moderates I'm going to graph both to see if there's any difference. And I hear you all about different lots, but I don't have the ability to acquire several lots of each powder to test. That would certainly give the "test" a lot of credibility, but I'm just mildly curious to see how the one lot of each that I have in my powder locker chronograph.

Yep, the 4895's are. Designed and produced by different plants to meet the same mil-spec burn rate. I'm surprised Hodgdon hasn't dropped one of them yet. I see IMR-4320 is not even being listed on the newest burn rate chart. So it looks like they're dropping support for it.

Hey Mike, have you thought about trying the new Enduron powders? They are temp stable with the addition of copper fouling deterrent. I'm having good results so far with them.

No, sir, I've not even investigated the Enduron powders, but I'll sure look into them! Thanks for the lead and suggestion.

I just went to the Hodgdon site and they do not have any loads published for the Enduron powders! Where can I find such information? And I wonder why Hodgdon/IMR haven't got it on their huge website?

They are listed under the IMR powders.

Yes, I saw that, but when I asked to see recommended IMR powders for various calibers, nothing with the Enduron label came up.

Gotcha, they haven't done load development on all of the calibers, or all bullets. It's kind of like wildcatting.

I hope they expand on that line of Staball powders. The Staball 6.5 is a bit slow for most of my needs but a Staball 6.0 or 5.5 would be ideal. I'm staying with copper reducing powders from now on after seeing the results. Cleaning barrels has never been as easy.

Yeah; I would think that they would at least have the calibers that they put on the Enduron powder containers up on their reloading data site! And as near as I can tell, this "new" powder has been out for at least a couple of years. Wonder it they've discovered a problem with it that the are trying to sort out???

I just try to find the powder it is replacing and start from there. Like the Enduron IMR-4166 is about like the 4064's and the IMR-4451 is at the 4350's burn rate. they need one a little quicker like a H-322 burn rate. But I see them dropping some of the older powders and forcing us to use these new enviro friendly ones. Once some of these old surplus mil-spec powders run out you won't have a choice. Reloaders are at the mercy of gov powder needs and they are going green with temperature and copper additives.

I'm not sure how much truth there is to any of this but the word out is;

Re-posted from another source.

Losing their CE certification as of 1st June this year are:

All Hodgdon ADI Manufactured extruded grades (also includes two IMR branded grades - 8208 XBR and Trail Boss), so H4198 through to H1000 and Retumbo 'gone'.

All General Dynamics St. Marks Powder Florida factory grades bar maybe a couple - all Winchester powders and nearly all Hodgdon 'spherical' powders are non-compliant. Hodgdon Lil Gun is compliant, and there is a question mark re the most recent introduction - H. CFE223. So, H335, BL-C(2), H414 and so-called 'Hybrid' powders made by St Marks (H100V and a few more), H. Super and Lever-formance spherical powders will no longer be imported.

All 'legacy' IMR powders made by General Dynamics Canada, in Valleyfield, Quebec are non-compliant, ie the traditional grades made by the Du Pont Corporation in the USA and taken to Canada under new ownership are non-compliant.

Ie IMR-4198 through to IMR-7828 and including many old favourites such as 3031, 4895, and 4064.

GD Canada has introduced five new 'green' pistol / revolver grades and four rifle grades that are all REACH compliant, although not all may have been CE certified under the new standards yet. In rifle propellants, that's the new IMR 'Enduron' quartet - and I would hope that this number will be expanded but have no hard information as to whether that is a possibility. The Endurons are: IMR-4166 (H4895 / VarGet replacement); 4451 (vice IMR/H4350); 4955 (vice IMR-4831/H4831); 7977 (vice IMR-7828/H1000). 4166, 4451, and 7977 are CE certified and available now - having tried them, I'm impressed and reckon they will fill many gaps. IMR-4955 has only recently been introduced and hasn't got here yet.

Again, I hope that's not true but as we head into the future enviro restraints are going to make a lot of our older powder disappear.

I wonder what the original source of this information is?

I'm not finding it with a quick google search.

IDK, but if I had favorite loads with any of those powders I'd be buying all of it I could. Just try to find some H450 today.

This may very well explain why Hodgdon is not pushing the new powders. Sounds like things are quite unsettled as of right now.

This is 2 years old. They are banning import to EU countries for not complying with some environmental chemical requirement.

Note date:

https://tcsclub.co.uk/2018/01/17/information-on-powders-from-jeff-davison/

Yeah anytime you see anything regarding CE certification, it involves the EU. We have our own certifications/standards that are applicable to selling products in the US.

That's right for now. Do you see them keep producing powders they can only sell to a few non-compliant countries? Good luck with that. I'm readjusting to the new powders where I'm not stuck looking for old stuff again. G' luck...

Not sure what you mean here... there are 195 countries in the world and CE certification is only used in a small number of them - primarily the EU countries (a few other countries have adopted some CE standards). Most other countries have different standards/certifications or none at all for smokeless powders. So, not meeting newer CE standards ONLY affects countries that require that specific CE certification standard. Essentially, this compliance issue effects, at most, 15% of the total number of countries in the world. And the whole of Europe, which includes 11 non-EU countries (including the Russian Federation), only make up 16% of the ammunition market (which includes the smokeless powder market)...The countries effected by this CE compliance issue actually make up less than 9% of the worldwide ammunition market. And really, when talking about the EU market we're really talking about the UK, Germany, and France - which make up like 90% of the EU ammunition market.

So, yes, I seriously doubt this little shakeup in the EU market is going to have any serious impact on those powders at all. It would be a different story if their only market was the EU or they were making the majority of their money off these powders in the EU - which is absolutely not the case - the EU is one of the smallest markets. Asia pacific is the largest market, followed by North America - those two markets combined make up approximately 74% of the market. The middle-east (6%) and South America (4%) come in last as the smallest markets. And we're just talking about overall market numbers right now - start breaking that down into how much of the market, in the effected countries, is held by those specific powders or companies who make them - we will quickly see how this issue isn't going to mean much to those companies. (the EU has their own market dominate companies that are different than the ones we have come to know here.)

And then we look at what drives the market - where are these powders used in the respective countries...The civilian population in Europe sure isn't burning through ammo as they don't have the same gun fascination or right of ownership that places like the USA do...more less the same gun usage ... the US is estimated to have between 400 - 650 MILLION guns in civilian hands... the whole of the EU is estimated at less than 100 million... the US civilian population is getting close to owning 50% of the civilian owned firearms WORLDWIDE. And even with our HIGH civilian gun ownership, the military still dominates the ammunition market (close to 80% of the market is the government)... the governments in the EU make up an even higher %. And these companies will all still make some compliant powders for the EU countries to supply to the their largest EU customers (EU governments) if it's worth the investment.

There's a lot of possible reasons for powder manufacturer's to stop making a specific powder - but failing to meet CE compliance standards is not one of them. The EU simply doesn't have that kind of influence over this specific market, more less these specific effected companies. Also, keep in mind that the UK just formally exited the EU this year - so this new CE compliance issue might not even apply to 1 of the 3 major players in that market anymore. So that effected 9% of the market very well may be only 4-5% now (the UK makes up 4 -5% of that 9%).

I have had good luck with H4895. I always try to keep it on hand mainly because it is good for reduced loads.