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.223 subs for Doe #7915259 07/27/20 09:43 PM
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Okay got a 9 year old that just can't take the recoil. Does will be at 50 to 70 yards. 77 grain.
I don't mind comments but please have some experience with ballistics.

I am thinking I kill pigs with a 22 and deer with a bow. So....

Definitely not looking to wound an animal and have it run 1000 yards.
Thanks in advance.

Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915330 07/27/20 10:33 PM
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i would scrap the rifle for now and try a cross bow.


A .223 subsonic imo would be extreemly marginal in terms of killing power. From what i can see at the muzzle it will have about as much energy as a .22 LR


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Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915345 07/27/20 10:47 PM
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I have no experience with subsonic in a .223 but have killed a lot of does with a .223 using Remington 55 grain softpoint. I shoot point of the shoulder shots out to 100 yards max and preferred closer ranges if I could get them. I did take a few a ranges out to 150 when needed but not preferred. They make much better bullet choices today than what I use. Put the bullet in the right spot with point of the shoulde/high shoulder/neck meet the shoulder areas and there will be no tracking. You can also use reduced recoil ammo that will not have the recoil and still use a large weight bullet. I let first time hunters use my .270 with reduced recoil Remington 115 grain and it was about the same felt recoil as a .243. It was just as deadly as the 130 grain when put in the same point of the shoulder area.


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Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915432 07/27/20 11:48 PM
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I would definitely not use a .223 subsonic for deer hunting. Go with a 55-62 grain hunting bullet or mono-metal and you should be fine as long as they can put it on target. A lot of times a kid that is recoil shy doesn't do well in the field.

Also, just something to note with young shooters. A lot of times it is not the recoil, it is the noise. Make sure that when you are shooting with them, they are wearing double hearing protection and that the muffs are actually kid-sized. Adult muffs don't fit kid's heads correctly, so don't give much protection. In many cases when I have instructed kids at the range who were recoil sensitive, putting them in double ear-pro cleared us up to .243 levels pretty quickly.


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Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915507 07/28/20 12:50 AM
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If my boy couldn't take the recoil of a 223, my boy would not hunt deer yet.

Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915542 07/28/20 01:17 AM
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It’s not the recoil it’s the muzzle bast. Invest in a suppressor.

Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: Nathan Nelson] #7915564 07/28/20 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Nathan Nelson
It’s not the recoil it’s the muzzle bast. Invest in a suppressor.



This gets my vote.


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Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915591 07/28/20 02:09 AM
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I am not trying to be a dick, but maybe your kid just isn't ready for deer hunting yet. Give it a year or 2

Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: Nathan Nelson] #7915592 07/28/20 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Nathan Nelson
It’s not the recoil it’s the muzzle bast. Invest in a suppressor.




I agree

Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915610 07/28/20 02:21 AM
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62 grain Federal Fusions will do the job at the distance at 50-70 yds. My 8 year old grandson used it to kill his first deer. Dropped her on the spot. I was really impressed with the amount of damage the fusion did to her lungs.


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Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915615 07/28/20 02:23 AM
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IMO .223 is marginal for deer. Subsonic .223 would be a no go! Wait until he can handle the recoil, or as others have pointed out, it's probably not the recoil, it's the blast. Especially if you are shooting an AR. There's almost no recoil. For a low recoil round for deer in ar, I would recommend 300BLK with 125gr SST. Keep it within 100 yards. Another good one is .357 mag in a rifle. Also 100 yards or less.


Originally Posted by txhuntingguide
If I choose to hunt in a coon tail hat, a pink tootoo and hip waders that is my fine...
Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: Nathan Nelson] #7915616 07/28/20 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Nathan Nelson
It’s not the recoil it’s the muzzle bast. Invest in a suppressor.


basically telling him to wait another year chicken


Originally Posted by txhuntingguide
If I choose to hunt in a coon tail hat, a pink tootoo and hip waders that is my fine...
Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915617 07/28/20 02:25 AM
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Had a neighbor’s kid over here just before last deer season. It was the muzzle blast that had her scared. We put my best ear muff protectors on her and she was fine. Killed a deer that season.

If necessary, use the foam ear plugs AND the ear muffs protectors. Go to Home Depot and get the red muffs made for 3M by Peltor, with an NRR of 34. They are the best I’ve found at noise reduction.


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Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915695 07/28/20 03:58 AM
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I sell subs for many different calibers made. A 223 sub, as far as power factor goes, would be on par with a 22 LR. It's going about the same velocity and with a similar weight bullet. And you will get zero expansion with the bullet. A 223 sub would be a very poor choice for a deer, IMO. I agree with the comment about the suppressor. My son took his first deer at 7 years old, and we used a 223 suppressed. He could shoot VERY well with it. A suppressor makes all the difference at a young age. But he could still shoot unsuppressed and do fine. Work with your youth hunter at the range and out of the deer blind on some practice targets. We did this and it helped a lot.



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Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915734 07/28/20 06:12 AM
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I shoot deer with 200 grain subsonic bullets in a 300 blackout with great success. They are specially designed to open up at subsonic velocities and make a devastating wound channel which they do. Much more than any of the dozens of deer I've killed with a bow. These are not anything you can use in a 223. This is a bad idea in that caliber. If they won't do this, don't use it.

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Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915736 07/28/20 06:22 AM
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+2 on 62gr Fusions. My 9 y/o has used it on three deer over the last couple seasons at those ranges.
One dropped. One ran about 50. One ran about 30. All exits. None required a second shot.
I like Fusions in general but the little 62gr at 223 speeds does the trick.
18.5" RAR.

Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915766 07/28/20 11:09 AM
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Some great advice here. I STRONLY recommend that if your child is not ready for the recoil for something like a 243 or 7mm/08 with standard or low recoil ammo, that you consider that as a significant sign they need to do A LOT more shooting before they are ready to shoot at and kill an animal. We forget sometimes, at least I do, that we used to shoot A LOT of other guns before we started deer hunting. Even if the child can shoot great on a range, that all changes when they are looking through the scope deciding to pull the trigger on an animal. I have seen and heard that go bad too, too, too many times with new hunters, kids and adults.

Forcing waiting, cultivating longing, can be a great way to motivate the child to work through their recoil discomfort, if they have a strong desire to hunt and harvest a deer. And managing our own parent hopes for our child can be difficult, we want for them what we've loved, but that can become a pressure that leads to problems. I know I have struggled with this and walked with many parents and kids through it.

One of the worst things that can happen to a beginning hunter is to wound, loose, or see an animal suffer, as you said in your (the original poster) concerns. This discussion has been had extensively for decades, hell maybe even centuries, and when its all said and done, all the opinions and exceptions are in, its just better to wait until the merging of the child's comfort with a long held standard caliber. There's a reason those calibers became the considered minimums and little has changed on that. There's just too much to risk, the life of an animal yes, but with the experience of the child being soooo important. We want to do everything we can to ensure that first kill goes well, it sets a standard that is of utmost importance.

I hesitate to say this, but this is so important to me, for kids and hunting culture's benefit, but this all comes from having personally guided over 400 deer kills and been in camp and learned from the daily experiences and stories of many thousands of guided kills. Even with the lower calibers, like 243, many, many deer would be lost, in the guiding situation which this is parent to child, without woodsmanship kills in recovery. Folks don't like to talk about that side, and I feel arrogant saying it this way, but I'm just trying to drive home the importance that sufficient caliber and ammo, that have a factored in margin of error because perfect shots WILL NOT ALWAYS happen, is one of the, if not the, most controllable factor in ensuring a good experience on that first shot.

A whole book could be written here and I've already rambled too much. In any case, best of luck to you and getting your child into hunting, you are doing great in your efforts!


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Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: Pappybear] #7915802 07/28/20 11:55 AM
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As velocity/energy and bullet size go down, placement and precision need to increase...meaning trying a .223 subsonic on a deer isn't for a beginner. It is for an expert.

Originally Posted by garyrapp55
If my boy couldn't take the recoil of a 223, my boy would not hunt deer yet.


This.

Originally Posted by Pappybear
62 grain Federal Fusions will do the job at the distance at 50-70 yds. My 8 year old grandson used it to kill his first deer. Dropped her on the spot. I was really impressed with the amount of damage the fusion did to her lungs.


You were shooting Federal Fusion subsonic? There is a huge difference between 3000 fps muzzle velocity and <1100 fps muzzle velocity. I high doubt the fusion will even open at <1100 fps


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Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915807 07/28/20 12:02 PM
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Oh, and I meant to mention, fill the stock of a 243 or 7.08 with lead or nickels or whatever will weight that sucker down and its recoil goes waaaayyy down. Tell the kid you are doing this for their comfort and success and their confidence might go waaayyyy up, because they appreciate so much the intention and effort. Seen a guy do this in the youth hunting program and introduce a bunch of little tiny young girls, his daughter first and then a bunch of her friends, to shooting and taking deer.


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Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915822 07/28/20 12:23 PM
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All it took for me to leave the .223 at home when deer hunting was to compare the cartridge with that of a .243, which has been at the bottom of the acceptable deer hunting cartridges list for some time. In addition to a bullet that's roughly 40 grains lighter than a .243, and with roughly half the powder charge pushing it, the math just doesn't work in its favor. I once dropped a deer dead in its tracks with a .22 short but would never use that as grounds to justify the round as acceptable for deer hunting.

I would suggest a youth sized .243 with Hornady's Reduced Recoil Ammo that produces just over 1,500 ft-pounds of energy at the muzzle, as compared to just under 1,200 for a .223. Ramp it up to a 100 grain bullet with a full powder charge behind it and you'll get just over 2,000 ft-pounds of energy at the muzzle. That's a bullet carrying 40% more energy than a .223.

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Last edited by Texas Dan; 07/28/20 12:58 PM.

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Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: Double Naught Spy] #7915878 07/28/20 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
As velocity/energy and bullet size go down, placement and precision need to increase...meaning trying a .223 subsonic on a deer isn't for a beginner. It is for an expert.

Originally Posted by garyrapp55
If my boy couldn't take the recoil of a 223, my boy would not hunt deer yet.


This.

Originally Posted by Pappybear
62 grain Federal Fusions will do the job at the distance at 50-70 yds. My 8 year old grandson used it to kill his first deer. Dropped her on the spot. I was really impressed with the amount of damage the fusion did to her lungs.


You were shooting Federal Fusion subsonic? There is a huge difference between 3000 fps muzzle velocity and <1100 fps muzzle velocity. I high doubt the fusion will even open at <1100 fps


No, standard .223 Federal Fusions 62gr. 3000 FPS.
My grandsons doe was shot at 66 yds. Entry and exit wound along the seam behind the shoulder. Both lungs had tennis ball size holes.
I had similar lung damage on a big sow that I shot at 100 yds. She managed to travel 50 yds before dropping.

I moved him up to a .243 this year. He practiced with the .243 Hornady Lites, reduced recoil, but hunted with 100 Grain Winchester Power Points. I re-zeroed the rifle at 100 yds for the Winchester PP’s which was nearly identical before his first hunt. When he shot his first hog with the full power ammo he never knew the difference.

Last edited by Pappybear; 07/28/20 01:46 PM.

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Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: RJH1] #7915896 07/28/20 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by RJH1
I am not trying to be a dick, but maybe your kid just isn't ready for deer hunting yet. Give it a year or 2

Pretty much tells it like it is...no need to rush, he has a lifetime.
Adios,

Gary

Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915916 07/28/20 01:52 PM
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This is from my own personal experience - so don't take it as a personal jab.

Are you 100% certain that your son wants to hunt? I have seen more than one kid pretend that a gun is too much for them to put off having to shoot an animal. It's easier in their brain to convince you they aren't able to shoot a gun vs disappoint you and tell you that they don't want to hunt.

Case in point - my niece who is a little older had about convinced my BIL that the .243 I let them borrow for her to shoot was too much. Same with the .223...and then I drove by my FIL's place one afternoon and she was shooting skeet with a 20 gauge no problem. So I picked her brain in a positive way - turns out she didn't want to shoot a deer - so it was easier to pretend there was a problem than disappoint Dad.

A .223 truly should not be too much recoil for a 9 year old boy. It is very minimal. So the things I would consider are A. much better hearing protection (as that is the problem most of the time) B. He just truly doesn't want to hunt, but also doesn't want to disappoint Dad.

Last edited by Cochise; 07/28/20 01:52 PM.
Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7915926 07/28/20 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by QuitShootinYoungBucks
Originally Posted by Nathan Nelson
It’s not the recoil it’s the muzzle bast. Invest in a suppressor.



This gets my vote.


X2 cuts noise and recoil.

Re: .223 subs for Doe [Re: chickenfriedbackstrap] #7915931 07/28/20 02:10 PM
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I was afraid my 3 daughters would be gun shy so as each one of them became interested in deer hunting I trained them with a .22 with a scope. Then I took them deer hunting and put a .243 in their hands and said it kicks just like the .22. Everyone one of them got their first deer and when asked how much the gun kicked they all had the same response, I didn't feel a thing. It's all in their head and as other have mentioned, it's probably the muzzle blast more than anything.

Last edited by rfamilyhunting; 07/28/20 02:10 PM.
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