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Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: Texas buckeye] #7874920 06/19/20 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas buckeye
Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by stxranchman

You can not do it by simply shooting all those types bucks off every year...you have to have a plan on what to do and how to do it with your doe side of the equation. You can do a lot by just culling the right does....then throw in an aggressive buck program and you will see results. Still a long term commitment that most are not willing to commit to.


I agree 100%, doe harvest is baseline in my opinion and every thing is built up from there, including habitat work.


For the vast majority of folks managing property (leased or owned) doe management is going to be the best yield due to just reducing mouths.
I am glad you guys touched on the doe side of “ugly bucks” since you just don’t know.





To me the buck management is last step. Thats why I stopped chiming in on most management threads. Lets skip the first 5 steps and focus on how we can justify taking a buck over does by using a genetic excuse, is what the threads should be called.

Only a handful of counties in Texas that don’t need to focus on doe harvest. In other words most leases seldom focus on herd health and doe harvest or they think they can use carrying capacity in a bag to over come it. That’s a very counter productive short term Mind set. If you truly want to manage a property your lease fee isn’t a justification to shoot a trophy ever year. It’s obligation to managing the herd to eventually shoot a trophy.

You walk on to ranch with mega bucks as a large percentage of the age classes it’s because they don’t shoot mega bucks, they shoot bottom Of age classes.... and that’s how you get to the trophy harvest ages in the 8.5 + year mark, that most can’t fathom.


We all hunt for different reasons and an exceptional deer is one of them, getting to an exception is as simple or as complex as you want it to be, just have to be honest with your self on what you are willing to do to get there. A debate over spikes, no brows, short brows etc isn’t even a debate unless you are willing to do everything else that’s more effective as a whole to get there.

I currently stand in the I’ll fill freezer first and then manage accordingly to how my freezer looks. Empty freezer, I’m on doe patrol, full freezer I’m trophy hunting, but Im not hunting a truely managed property. I hunt a normal texas property... that numbers are truely known, ratio is a dart board, and the trophy/cull criteria/view is arbitrary.... but getting better













Donate to TX Youth hunting program.... better to donate then to waste it in taxes

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Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: Hudbone] #7874962 06/19/20 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Hudbone
"ONLY if you shoot ALL the ugly... EVERY year" Why wouldn't you? Shouldn't this be a goal? Maybe even a mantra?

Prior to getting on MLD and with limited tags, Klappenbach and myself have done nothing but try to shoot the easiest to identify cull deer and not the trophy "management" ones. Although there are typically one or two easy to ID culls each year, the remainder are getting better and better making the decisions on which pones to live and which to die harder and harder. It's a good thing.


Would this count as “ugly”?
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]



Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: Hudbone] #7875147 06/19/20 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Hudbone
"ONLY if you shoot ALL the ugly... EVERY year" Why wouldn't you? Shouldn't this be a goal? Maybe even a mantra?

Prior to getting on MLD and with limited tags, Klappenbach and myself have done nothing but try to shoot the easiest to identify cull deer and not the trophy "management" ones. Although there are typically one or two easy to ID culls each year, the remainder are getting better and better making the decisions on which pones to live and which to die harder and harder. It's a good thing.


You wouldnt, if you don’t have the resources to effectively do it, and if you don’t have the same page hunters and landowners.

Once you move to MLD you start actually getting defined restraints on hunters built off a foundation of management, with everyone’s buy in.

Vast majority of leases have some loose arbitrary management plan thats more of a justification to use that second antler tag then actual management, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that


Donate to TX Youth hunting program.... better to donate then to waste it in taxes

https://secure.qgiv.com/for/gtgoh/mobile
Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: DLALLDER] #7875151 06/19/20 05:16 PM
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HUD, this discussion is for all comers, so some places just don’t have the tags needed and LO or managers don’t want to go through the “hassle” for MLD.

For my place in OK, I need 1000 contiguous acres to enroll in their DMAPS program which would give me More doe tags and longer gun season. But I don’t have that (yet) and am stuck with my 5 tags and my son’s, but getting friends up to oklahoma, buying a several hundred dollar license for out of state, and taking one or two doe doesn’t make sense for a lot of them.

So to answer you question, tags is the main reason.

Some places are so large the time and effort is too large to take all the uglies and the hunters just don’t want to do the work or have the time. Lots of reasons to not shoot all the uglies

Edit, wrote that without seeing BOBO’s post above. Pretty much on the same page on the question.

Last edited by Texas buckeye; 06/19/20 05:19 PM.
Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: 68rustbucket] #7875155 06/19/20 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by 68rustbucket
Originally Posted by Hudbone
"ONLY if you shoot ALL the ugly... EVERY year" Why wouldn't you? Shouldn't this be a goal? Maybe even a mantra?

Prior to getting on MLD and with limited tags, Klappenbach and myself have done nothing but try to shoot the easiest to identify cull deer and not the trophy "management" ones. Although there are typically one or two easy to ID culls each year, the remainder are getting better and better making the decisions on which pones to live and which to die harder and harder. It's a good thing.


Would this count as “ugly”?
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

What did he look like last year and the year before?


Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?[Linked Image]
Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: BOBO the Clown] #7875490 06/19/20 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by Texas buckeye
Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by stxranchman

You can not do it by simply shooting all those types bucks off every year...you have to have a plan on what to do and how to do it with your doe side of the equation. You can do a lot by just culling the right does....then throw in an aggressive buck program and you will see results. Still a long term commitment that most are not willing to commit to.


I agree 100%, doe harvest is baseline in my opinion and every thing is built up from there, including habitat work.


For the vast majority of folks managing property (leased or owned) doe management is going to be the best yield due to just reducing mouths.
I am glad you guys touched on the doe side of “ugly bucks” since you just don’t know.





To me the buck management is last step. Thats why I stopped chiming in on most management threads. Lets skip the first 5 steps and focus on how we can justify taking a buck over does by using a genetic excuse, is what the threads should be called.

Only a handful of counties in Texas that don’t need to focus on doe harvest. In other words most leases seldom focus on herd health and doe harvest or they think they can use carrying capacity in a bag to over come it. That’s a very counter productive short term Mind set. If you truly want to manage a property your lease fee isn’t a justification to shoot a trophy ever year. It’s obligation to managing the herd to eventually shoot a trophy.

You walk on to ranch with mega bucks as a large percentage of the age classes it’s because they don’t shoot mega bucks, they shoot bottom Of age classes.... and that’s how you get to the trophy harvest ages in the 8.5 + year mark, that most can’t fathom.


We all hunt for different reasons and an exceptional deer is one of them, getting to an exception is as simple or as complex as you want it to be, just have to be honest with your self on what you are willing to do to get there. A debate over spikes, no brows, short brows etc isn’t even a debate unless you are willing to do everything else that’s more effective as a whole to get there.

I currently stand in the I’ll fill freezer first and then manage accordingly to how my freezer looks. Empty freezer, I’m on doe patrol, full freezer I’m trophy hunting, but Im not hunting a truely managed property. I hunt a normal texas property... that numbers are truely known, ratio is a dart board, and the trophy/cull criteria/view is arbitrary.... but getting better












Wow... Im busy for 24 hours and this thread has kept going strong. I feel like this is the BEST THREAD ive seen on this forum. If you are wanting to improve the property you are on for deer hunting i suggest you go back and read everything on the thread and take notes. There are differences of opinion but lots and lots of good ideas/info.
I will catch up and reply to several posts and likely post some pics of lop sided racks but for now I want to address Bobos thread above. His first sentence he basically is saying that hes tired of posting on "culling" threads cause nobody seems to listen. All they want is an excuse to shoot a second buck. I feel the same way and started not to post on this thread cause i knew it would be a battle that no one would win. Insert head banging wall. However, I think the majority of posters are starting to at least imply there is some common ground that all different types of managers/hunters can agree to. Too much to recap so again I suggest if you are serious about some plan to improve your bucks that you reread all this thread.
Bobo doesnt always post a long post but I think he really put some time into this one above and it says a lot that apply to the majority, IMO.....


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: stxranchman] #7875498 06/19/20 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by stxranchman
Originally Posted by 68rustbucket
Originally Posted by Hudbone
"ONLY if you shoot ALL the ugly... EVERY year" Why wouldn't you? Shouldn't this be a goal? Maybe even a mantra?

Prior to getting on MLD and with limited tags, Klappenbach and myself have done nothing but try to shoot the easiest to identify cull deer and not the trophy "management" ones. Although there are typically one or two easy to ID culls each year, the remainder are getting better and better making the decisions on which pones to live and which to die harder and harder. It's a good thing.


Would this count as “ugly”?
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

What did he look like last year and the year before?

That is some kinda ugly. Never really seen one close to that. Such straight lines on several it just doesnt make sense. As STx said, its great to have history on bucks like that. He mentioned how the increased use of TC has really changed alot about what we can do management wise. We went from no TCs to a tremendous network of cams that we put pics on an in house website for all our hunters to learn and study and talk about. The history on some of the bucks really helps with management decisions. The Age/Score thread I had the other day on the buck that went from 130s to 167 in one year was an eye opener and the the 1x5 that went to a 6x6 the next year was a lesson for sure. Have a plan(realistic one), stick to it, keep records, have fun.


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: DLALLDER] #7875641 06/20/20 02:11 AM
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Agree FR, this is a good thread chock full of good info. Appreciate all the posts everyone has contributed.

Determine the effort you want to put into managing, determine if it’s possible given your resources, come up with a plan, implement and stick with it. Reevaluate annually.

It isn’t overnight, it isn’t a one year plan....and it’s work.

Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: DLALLDER] #7875647 06/20/20 02:19 AM
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Just my thoughts.

As with anything in life the majority typically is not willing to be patient and take the time to do something the right way. This includes owning a business or running a deer lease or many other things. I was told many years ago that "successful people do the little things other people do not want to do." Lots of truth in that.

Our world today is all about instant gratification which does not jive with the long term approach needed to manage for top end deer. Whether it is hill country or south texas, the only way to grow better deer is to buy in to the program and stay for the long haul. Truthfully most hunters are not willing to do so. And that is ok - to each their own.

The starting line is having hunters/people who are committed to the long term even though it will cost money and time and tons of patience. IF you do not have those kinds of commited hunters then the rest of the managing is worthless. You can feed all you want but if the hunters are killing the wrong deer every year then feed becomes worthless and a waste of money. By the same token - if the ranch owner is not truly committed to a long term program then it is also for naught.

Again my 2 cents which is not worth a penny

Last edited by tlk; 06/20/20 02:25 AM.

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Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: DLALLDER] #7875699 06/20/20 03:35 AM
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Great post tlk 👍

Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: stxranchman] #7875728 06/20/20 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by stxranchman
I saw this buck one morning and texted a pic(off my camera) to the ranch manager/biologist to inquire about him since he had not told me about any bucks that were on the save list. I could tell he was very old and could have been a buck they may be saving due to his age. He told me that buck had been estimated to have scored between 200"-210" gross the year before and went downhill for some unknown reason..so don't shoot him. The buck being blind in one eye was the way they had him identified. They wanted to watch him for another year to see if he went back to the way he looked in the past.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
This buck was one they new about and had him on TC but rarely seen him in person. I was able to take pics of him 3 yrs before this in the same area I found him when I took these pics. He was the same way a huge framed buck that showed up with damaged antler on one side. It never went back to normal and he had the white/blind eye for years. They called him "Moonshine". They kept him off the shoot list hoping he would go back to a normal rack.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Neither of these bucks had any leg or injuries I could see. Both had matching sides in the past but turned freaky or went downhill due to injury not from genetics. History is what kept them from being shot.

The buck in the bottom photo looks like he may be blind in his left eye....you have any more photos of him where you can see that eye better? The photo where hes looking straighter at the camera that left eye looks odd...may just be a reflection though.

Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: DLALLDER] #7875739 06/20/20 09:39 AM
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I paid $20 a doe last year to donate at Fischers btw. Usual fee.

Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: Txhunter65] #7875795 06/20/20 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Txhunter65
Originally Posted by stxranchman
I saw this buck one morning and texted a pic(off my camera) to the ranch manager/biologist to inquire about him since he had not told me about any bucks that were on the save list. I could tell he was very old and could have been a buck they may be saving due to his age. He told me that buck had been estimated to have scored between 200"-210" gross the year before and went downhill for some unknown reason..so don't shoot him. The buck being blind in one eye was the way they had him identified. They wanted to watch him for another year to see if he went back to the way he looked in the past.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
This buck was one they new about and had him on TC but rarely seen him in person. I was able to take pics of him 3 yrs before this in the same area I found him when I took these pics. He was the same way a huge framed buck that showed up with damaged antler on one side. It never went back to normal and he had the white/blind eye for years. They called him "Moonshine". They kept him off the shoot list hoping he would go back to a normal rack.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Neither of these bucks had any leg or injuries I could see. Both had matching sides in the past but turned freaky or went downhill due to injury not from genetics. History is what kept them from being shot.

The buck in the bottom photo looks like he may be blind in his left eye....you have any more photos of him where you can see that eye better? The photo where hes looking straighter at the camera that left eye looks odd...may just be a reflection though.

Read the red highlighted part above...the white/blind eye is why they nicknamed him "Moonshine". He did not hang around very long that afternoon after sundown and he was out about 300 yards when I took these pics. Best angle I have of it but that eye was snow white looking thru the binos. This photo really shows his age very well...with all the loose saggy skin under the jaw, in the face and in the brisket area.
[Linked Image]




Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?[Linked Image]
Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: DLALLDER] #7875835 06/20/20 01:19 PM
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Rust's deer is over the top ugly. No doubt on that one. Looks mature, maybe post mature, so may have been round too long or just long enuff to get injured, sick or something and could be considered an easy cull decision. That droopy beamed one is interesting. Lots of good aspects to his horns, but no way could you call that a cull. In addition, his raw score has to be at or above 150 and most would consider him to be an "unconventional" trophy.

Meat is meat and we get the opportunity to obtain plenty of it. After doe numbers and a desired buck doe ratio is in place, we have been attempting to manage antler wise with an over simplification of shoot the ugly. We like mass and especially weight on the tines. Long beams, long tines and strong eye guards are pluses. Yes, other you do need space, tags and nearby hunters to be on the same page. Even if nearby hunters are not on the same page, you can only control your actions. Others may benefit or even take advantage of it. Remember, no good deed goes unpunished. If desiring to improve antler characteristics, you have to avoid the notion that you are afraid someone nearby will shoot what you choose to pass on.

Look at this photo and realize all these bucks can be eaten. Looking at the three eights, there are two significantly inferior to the remaining one. If you are gonna be shooting bucks, It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out which ones of these need to considered for the kill list.

[Linked Image]

Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: DLALLDER] #7875836 06/20/20 01:20 PM
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Since we are discussing freak/injured bucks here are a few others we have had over the years. First one we never harvested.


[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]


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Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: stxranchman] #7875854 06/20/20 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by stxranchman
Originally Posted by 68rustbucket
Originally Posted by Hudbone
"ONLY if you shoot ALL the ugly... EVERY year" Why wouldn't you? Shouldn't this be a goal? Maybe even a mantra?

Prior to getting on MLD and with limited tags, Klappenbach and myself have done nothing but try to shoot the easiest to identify cull deer and not the trophy "management" ones. Although there are typically one or two easy to ID culls each year, the remainder are getting better and better making the decisions on which pones to live and which to die harder and harder. It's a good thing.


Would this count as “ugly”?
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

What did he look like last year and the year before?


I don’t know, that was my first season on that place.



Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: DLALLDER] #7875858 06/20/20 01:54 PM
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Would this buck be shot based off this one year? Many would shoot based off this one year. He was safe here due to AR under 13" spread rules. I also know what he was the year before this. Antler damage is not a reason to cull unless you have history of the buck or he would still fall in the lower portion of his age class IMO
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
He is the buck on the right walking away in this pic.
[Linked Image]


Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?[Linked Image]
Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: DLALLDER] #7875861 06/20/20 01:57 PM
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I watched that buck most of the season, til it got whooped by another buck. It moved to another feeder about 1/2 mile away, and got pics on another trail cam. Then the pic went to rancher for kill approval. A teenage son of another hunter took it, I was happy for him. [Linked Image]

Last edited by 68rustbucket; 06/20/20 01:59 PM.


Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: Hudbone] #7875869 06/20/20 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Hudbone
Rust's deer is over the top ugly. No doubt on that one. Looks mature, maybe post mature, so may have been round too long or just long enuff to get injured, sick or something and could be considered an easy cull decision. That droopy beamed one is interesting. Lots of good aspects to his horns, but no way could you call that a cull. In addition, his raw score has to be at or above 150 and most would consider him to be an "unconventional" trophy.

Meat is meat and we get the opportunity to obtain plenty of it. After doe numbers and a desired buck doe ratio is in place, we have been attempting to manage antler wise with an over simplification of shoot the ugly. We like mass and especially weight on the tines. Long beams, long tines and strong eye guards are pluses. Yes, other you do need space, tags and nearby hunters to be on the same page. Even if nearby hunters are not on the same page, you can only control your actions. Others may benefit or even take advantage of it. Remember, no good deed goes unpunished. If desiring to improve antler characteristics, you have to avoid the notion that you are afraid someone nearby will shoot what you choose to pass on.

Look at this photo and realize all these bucks can be eaten. Looking at the three eights, there are two significantly inferior to the remaining one. If you are gonna be shooting bucks, It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out which ones of these need to considered for the kill list.

[Linked Image]

There are ranches that would shoot 4 of those 5 bucks under their management criteria. The only one they would keep is the one in the left background with multi-pointed rack. For them to keep an 8pt under 4 yrs old he would have to have really long tines and beams. The buck in the left front looks to be an older buck based off of that one pic. He is multi-tined but short tined and shows some age for what I like to see in a South Texas buck. He is more of a cookie cutter type buck, not what you want breeding does. I have friends that will tell you they are not worried about ratios when it comes to starting a management program. If they have the tags then they are getting rid of the bucks they do not like from the get go. They get the doe numbers where they want them and shoot what bucks they do not want or like the looks of.


Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?[Linked Image]
Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: DLALLDER] #7875879 06/20/20 02:14 PM
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This is a buck that I have a few years of history with.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?[Linked Image]
Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: 68rustbucket] #7875885 06/20/20 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 68rustbucket

I watched that buck most of the season, til it got whooped by another buck. It moved to another feeder about 1/2 mile away, and got pics on another trail cam. Then the pic went to rancher for kill approval. A teenage son of another hunter took it, I was happy for him. [Linked Image]

That highlighted part to me shows he was as old as he looked in the pics. Most hunters will only look at the current day and not at the past history on a buck like this. If he was a 170+ deer, his look did not change his genetics IMO. He could have been a really great deer or not much at all with no history of him. Nothing wrong with taking post mature bucks that are on the downhill. I am one that likes to look at the history of a buck before I make my decision on shooting or passing on him based off of what the other bucks look like that are on the ranch. If this ranch has better, younger bucks then shoot him...it is still a mouth off the habitat. IMO if you are managing correctly the better genetic potential will always be in your younger deer.


Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?[Linked Image]
Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: tlk] #7876117 06/20/20 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by tlk
Just my thoughts.

As with anything in life the majority typically is not willing to be patient and take the time to do something the right way. This includes owning a business or running a deer lease or many other things. I was told many years ago that "successful people do the little things other people do not want to do." Lots of truth in that.

Our world today is all about instant gratification which does not jive with the long term approach needed to manage for top end deer. Whether it is hill country or south texas, the only way to grow better deer is to buy in to the program and stay for the long haul. Truthfully most hunters are not willing to do so. And that is ok - to each their own.

The starting line is having hunters/people who are committed to the long term even though it will cost money and time and tons of patience. IF you do not have those kinds of commited hunters then the rest of the managing is worthless. You can feed all you want but if the hunters are killing the wrong deer every year then feed becomes worthless and a waste of money. By the same token - if the ranch owner is not truly committed to a long term program then it is also for naught.

Again my 2 cents which is not worth a penny

tlk, that post of yours is worth way more than a penny. There is so much SPECIFIC info on this thread, but yours and the thread of Bobos I quoted earlier really speak to almost anyone trying to improve their herd. Lots of info floating around on specifically how to improve a specific situation but yours and Bobos really speaks to the MASSES which is usually the foundational info that I always try to get across.


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: stxranchman] #7876120 06/20/20 06:31 PM
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freerange Online Content
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Originally Posted by stxranchman
This is a buck that I have a few years of history with.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Now that is ugly..... You gonna give us some history? Hes certainly had enough time to do better than that.


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: freerange] #7876126 06/20/20 06:37 PM
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stxranchman Offline
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Originally Posted by freerange
Originally Posted by stxranchman
This is a buck that I have a few years of history with.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Now that is ugly..... You gonna give us some history? Hes certainly had enough time to do better than that.

From that one pic...do you think he was always that ugly? Can tell why he is that way....Genetics? Age? Lack of nutrition? Sick? Injured? Wounded? or Combination of some of them all?
Here he is the next summer after the pics above. Notice the small notch or tear in his right ear.
[Linked Image]


Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?[Linked Image]
Re: MANAGEMENT BUCKS [Re: stxranchman] #7876131 06/20/20 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by stxranchman
Originally Posted by freerange
Originally Posted by stxranchman
This is a buck that I have a few years of history with.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Now that is ugly..... You gonna give us some history? Hes certainly had enough time to do better than that.

From that one pic...do you think he was always that ugly? Can tell why he is that way....Genetics? Age? Lack of nutrition? Sick? Injured? Wounded? or Combination of some of them all?
Here he is the next summer after the pics above. Notice the small notch or tear in his right ear.
[Linked Image]

I assume you are setting us up for a teaching point which is great. I do not know whats wrong but assume hes seen better racks and better health. Probably a combination of the factors you listed. I assume you mentioned the notched ear for ID purposes and not a hint to his issues(youre not real big on hints.)


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
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