If a 2.5 yo buck does not have any brow tines would you consider him to be a management buck (take him out of the breeding circle)? If not at 2.5, what age would you consider him a cull? I am on a lease that seems to have a lot of bucks with no brow tines & LO wants them taken out, just not sure of what age class to take. Thanks Daniel

An 8 point frame missing brows(6point) at 2.5 is getting whacked in my book. If it ever grows brows they will likely be short and not do much. If your land owner says shoot, you do what he says, it’s his land.

I'd give him another year , might be a better buck next year with good nutrition.
You won't have any older bucks if you shoot all the young ones . Nutrition can make all the difference.

wytex makes good point

As long as I could keep my buck doe ratio where it needs to be, shoot the weak bastys on sight

Yep working backwards IMO. You start with habitat/nutrition and carrying capacity. Established age classes.......then start culling IMO......

If you want more that look just like them, by all means keep every single of one of them. If you have the tags then shoot everyone of them you can...not for one year but long term. Management is not a one and done, it takes time. So you have to have the tags and "want to" to get it done. Also, do not forget about managing your does and keeping the numbers shot every year. Long term, again not a one and done. Most hunters only worry about what they can see and not why they started a management program in the first place. All programs are long term and most people are not ready for that type of long term commitment to see the end result. I never worry about ratios when I have the tags or permits to manage the herd like it needs to be. They give you MLD permits for a reason...not just to shoot trophy bucks early. It is to manage the herd and the habitat together. Eliminating those type of bucks does a lot of good for the herd...one being more feed for the rest of the herd....which you liked since you did not shoot them for a reason.
My question would be what is the lease/ranch doing on doe numbers? What is the ranch doing on culling? WAG on my part but I bet the lease/ranch is not shooting spikes either. You probably could eliminate a major portion of those 2.5 yr old non-browtine bucks by killing spikes....LONG TERM...not a one and done.

Thanks for your experience. LO has told us on our lease that we will probably get ALL the doe tags we want. He does manage per the MLD limits but I am not sure he actually kills does that need to be taken. He has several big hunts each year but sometimes it is very hard to get hunters to take out does, as you probably very well know. I was on a game ranch for 8 years as a guide & helper when needed but the last 2 RANCH MANAGERS did not want to take does till the TPWD biologist changed their mind. Last Ranch Manger got a nasty gram from him with some directions, long story short, I was given instructions the day before MLD opening to start shooting does & spikes & Ranch Manager would tell me when to stop. The wife and I took 20+ does & 12 spikes the month of Oct that year plus what the clients took in Nov & Dec.

Imo....people save more deer that should be shot than shoot deer they should have saved.


My personal preference was on a high fenced place if it didn't have 10 points as a 3 year old he got whacked.

All the nutrition in the world will not make up for poor genetics but you will never get rid of poor genetics especially in low fence arenas. Thinning will make some difference but as STX has said, it is a long term & constant effort.

When you have a nutritional problem is not due to poor genetics it is due to have to many mouths on the habitat. You need to address the mouth problem first. The mouths your remove are what molds the look of the deer herd over time. Most people throw out the bandaid.....feed to the deer and forget about the mouth problem. Now they have created all sorts of long term problems. If you are going to feed then you are now committed to management and numbers control...unless you have deep pockets. Even then I have seen landowners/hunters scream at the high price/volume of feed they are buying....the feed company only supplies the feed they don't force deer to eat it. Under MLD the permits are issued for a reason....use them wisely but use them all.

one question I have, is where did the line get blurred between "cull" and "management"


We had a 1200 acre high fenced ranch that we shot relentlessly the 7 points and under as well as took the appropriate amount of does but for whatever reason it seemed like if it had 8 or 9 points it had to be protected as if it was gonna magically sprout 2 or 3 extra main beam points.


We had a ton of mature 8's but after awhile rarely saw a 6 or 7 point that was mature as most of them got shot at 7 years old.


I shot a 6 year old 8 point that was about 130" one time and when I brought it back to camp the old timers looked at me like they were gonna string me up, as I was only supposed to shoot "cull bucks"

Cull by definition means to select (or gather) are certain segment of the herd. Definiton of management is directing and controlling a group. Management of deer means to manage more than just the deer. Every time you shoot a deer you are making a management decision by culling that certain deer. Old ranchers used the word, cull when managing their livestock herds in drought times. They did not cull off or sell off the better animals but in turn culled off the lower end of the herd. Those that were older or less productive. They were "managing" their herd to the habitat at that time. While many prefer to manage their herds today for the worst of times in the future.

Ill give this a real long reply later when I have time, but for now im curious how many acres you personally shot the 12 spikes in a month. We have over 10000ac and it would take a few years to even see 12 spikes. We might average seeing one buck thats short a brow tine per year and we might see one buck on average per year that has less than 8 points unless its 2yr or less. We do not cull anything till 4 and usually 5yr and do not feed protein. Every situation is different and that will be the crux of my lengthy reply later.

Possible to see 5 spikes in a hunt at my place and that is just one morning or afternoon at just one blind. Also possible to see 6 ten points in a single hunt.

To quote the resident octogenarian self-proclaimed rockstar on here - "'Bated breath."

I would be willing to bet if you were shooting everyone you see you would be surprised at the total by the end of the year. Most people do not pay attention to spikes until they have more than one in front of them. Why I say this is because of a 5700 acre LF ranch that I now that started a management program after they had been feeding protein for quite a few years. They were not killing a 160 type deer very often even in wetter years and nothing ever over 175 gross. That ranch was part off a much larger ranch that was divided into 3 different lease pasture groups. One of the pastures was killing 160+ deer on a regular basis(with no protein) and even deer up to the low 190's on the better rainfall years. The pasture that was feeding protein had a good buck to doe ratio but they had to many deer for the habitat. They started out by doing some blind count surveys to get an idea on population and then buck to doe/fawn numbers. They got the approval of the LO to start shooting more deer to get the numbers back in line with the habitat. They started shooting spikes, bucks that were 2+ yrs or older with under 8 pts, bucks 4.5 or older with 8 pts or weak 9 pts and then their normal amount of trophy bucks(if they wanted one). They agreed on spikes since they were not seeing many....38 spikes later and all the invited guests that had tags they stopped shooting but felt they had gotten most of them that first year. Before they started shooting I ask them how many spikes they thought they had and they agreed on maybe 101-2 on their 5700 acres. They shot another 12 to 15 of the 2.5 yr or older bucks with less than 8 pts and 4.5 or older 8/9 pts. They also killed around 40 does IIRC that first year. They kept this program in place plus in the 2nd year and after, they started to shoot off the mature bucks(9 or 10pt or more) that would not score over a certain minimum score..ie 140 or less for example. It took them about 4 yrs to see better upper end bucks and then they started killing deer over 160 gross. They even killed a few deer into the 170's and 180+ gross over the next few years.
I managed a ranch in La Salle county that was about the same size as this one. It was LF before I went to work and then HF after I went there. They fed protein(LF for previous 5 yrs) and shot a few does on occasion in most years with one year killing 40. They would shoot a cull or management buck and a few trophies but never any spikes. Deer numbers were very high for that habitat.The first year I went to work the HF was finished that summer and we started removing mouths from herd that had a deer to 7 to 8 acres with almost a 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio. We shot 35 to 40 spikes per year the first 3 years I was there. They continue to shoot spikes today, 17 yrs later. They also shoot cull/management bucks from every age class including 1.5 yr old bucks that have less than 6 pts. At this point in their management it does not matter if that spike was genetic, late born, had a poor mother or injured they have better 1.5 yr old bucks that they are more interested in keeping.
I also know of a very large LF ranch that has been shooting spikes every year since the late 90's now. They also started culling very hard on the 2.5 yr old and older bucks at that same time. They shot the lower end of the 1.5 yr old up to mature bucks and continue with an even more intense program today. If a buck is mature on that ranch he will be or has been a really good deer. IRRC the biggest buck killed priour to the late 90's was a low 190's gross NT buck. Fast forward to today and that top end buck was killed in the past couple of years grossed 257 NT and netted over 246 NT. They kill net book deer on a regular basis, some years multiple bucks now. Long term commitment to their management plan and goals.
Intense management of shooting spikes and management deer is not for everyone.You have to look at what you are wanting to do and the hunters you have to do it with. Some ranches or lease don't have the resources or people to do it consistently every year. It involves a lot more work than most people realize. Shooting deer is just part of the long term plan. A study was done years ago that said most hunters feel they got their monies worth(for lease or paid hunt) if they were seeing at least 7 deer(bucks and does together) every time they went to the blind or hunted. Some hunters don't care what the bucks look like as long at they are seeing some each hunt. Some hunters want to see several quality bucks of all ages. That is where the goals set in the beginning will differ.

We've shot a lot of ugly over the past so many years. I lovey to bring guests and let them see the tantalizing pretty that is left. I feel like a guest every time I am there.

What a great topic and good discussion so far.

Quick question, for the typical Texas hunter, on a lease with say sub 500 acres of land under “their” control, what is the long term management relating to deer? Is the answer simply to reduce mouths, let deer age, and not worry about management killing spikes or no brow time deer? I have to think most Texas hunters/land owners can not shoot enough deer to make a difference and if they could shoot enough deer on a smallish ranchette then 1. Their neighbors will be pissed at them, and 2. They will kill all their deer.

Would be awesome if we all had access to 5000+ acre leases to be able to actually manage deer herds, but I feel for the vast majority of hunters it’s more an issue of increasing age and nutrition and management ends pretty much at that.

So it begs the question, were these ranches just vastly overpopulated and killing was directed at both doe and young bucks? In simply “reducing mouths” would these goals have been met or do you think the goals of bigger deer were somehow related to killing the spikes and that spikes are genetically inferior to branched yearlings? It is sometimes very difficult to separate the true “cause” and the “side effect” benefit. We all know killing doe took a back seat for decades to killing bigger bucks, so we’re these ranches just so over populated they needed to be thinned and the thinning and proper nutritional management was really all that was needed (meaning shooting any buck and not necessarily the spikes up front, just thinning the herd)? Sorry if that is rambling, but I think the point comes across

Obviously over populated

If you have bucks with brow tines and bucks without brow tines, even if from different age groups, it is not a matter of nutrition- it is a matter of genetics. Unfortunately you cannot determine which does are contributing to the problem but culling the bucks with no brow tines would be a start.

IN MY OPINION the only short answer to any culling question is IT DEPENDS IT DEPENDS IT DEPENDS. Because of that I wont comment directly to the OP since I don’t know enough details. STx mentioned in so many words, more than once, that you have to be committed to the long term and not every one is, or the SITUATION DOESN’T MAKE IT PRACTICAL OR FEASIBLE TO DO SO(TxBuck spoke to this). I will use my often used example of Goldilocks in which there are often two extremes and a middle ground to most situations.
>>Intensively Managed property—These are all the ones that STx used as examples but IMO this applies to an extremely small number of Texas hunters. If you are blessed enough to hunt a real high end heavy managed property then you already doing a lot right and you probably don’t even need to keep reading this. Often times these places are HF or really large and the hunters(if any besides family) are paying 5 digits for access and lots more in feed etc. Supplemental feed, habitat management, carry capacity, doe/buck ratio and everything else is being done and done right and the high money that hunters are paying keeps the number of hunters low. And even though MLD is a good first step, it in no way means that you are necessarily intensively managing your property. Like I said, if this is your situation you are in a very small minority and likely you or someone already has all the answers so you don’t need advice (no sarcasm). Also, if you are on this type of place then take STx advise cause he knows 100 times more than me for sure.
>>Low Intensity Managed property—IMO most hunters fall into this extreme and some are by choice and others not. Some guys just want a place to go hunt and don’t really want to put what it takes into managing for Quality or Trophy or anything else and nothing wrong with that. Others really think they want to manage a place but are unable to pull if off for various reasons. Some just don’t have the know how. Others cant put together a group of guys that share the same goals. I think there are two main reasons it cant be pulled off.
1. TOO SMALL A PROPERY and no big and good neighbors. IMO, no matter how good a deer manager you are it just cant be done if too small a property. Whatever you do correctly is likely destroyed by your neighbors and even if they didn’t do that you THINK they will so everybody gives up or doesn’t even try in the first place. Please try to do it but IMO its probably wasted effort to even try to have an elaborate management plan and DEFINITELY NOT PRACTICAL TO CULL in this situation. If you hunt just a few 100 acres and you are killing young supposedly inferior bucks then you are killing the few bucks that you may ever see reach maturity. Sure, anyone can get lucky and kill a big buck and especially depending on neighbors but nothing you can do by culling or a management plan will help sustain any kind of Trophies for the long term. Let EVERY young buck grow up and maybe you will at least have a chance at a mature buck and that is a trophy in itself and especially of small property.
2. TOO MANY HUNTERS on even a large property. IMO if you have too many hunters and are killing too many bucks then you are spinning your wheels with any type management plan much less a culling program. Because deer country has gotten so expensive it is very difficult to keep hunter numbers low without having to pay big money. In the area I hunt there are big ranches around, like 10k to 20k acres. One in particular I feel is kind of the norm and its 20k ac and its divided up into 2000 to 4000 ac per hunting group. They mostly all have about 200 to 300 acres per hunter. In our part of NW TX if all those guys comes anywhere close to killing a buck a year then they will be completely out of ANY older age bucks in a few years. In a situation like that the best management plan ideas will never work and DEFINITELY NOT PRACTICAL TO CULL.
>>Medium Intensity Managed property—IMO to have expectations of having an opportunity at hunting a “Quality Trophy” buck on a sustained basis year in and year out you need a good plan and a good group of guys and landowner committed to the long haul. It does NOT HAVE TO INCLUDE CULLING or supplemental feed. You do need to keep a handle on total deer numbers as it relates to carry capacity and a good doe/buck ratio. The other ingredients are a big enough place or great neighbors and DO NOT kill too many bucks. Not killing too many bucks is best achieved by having a large number of acres per hunters. This acre to hunter ratio can be very difficult to achieve with high lease prices.
I will use our NW Tx place last year as an example. I call it a Trophy lease that is family friendly. We manage for Trophies but we also manage to produce as large a Quality Management Buck as we can. For whatever reason, we rarely see what most would consider a real sorry cull buck so the ones that are inferior we let them get older. When they get to be 5 yr old they are often times in the 120s BC. For the guys Ive put together that is a real nice “extra” buck to get while they hunt for a real Trophy. Our wives and kids often kill these Mgnt Bucks and that keeps everybody happy for the years when a Trophy doesn’t come along. Last year we killed 18 bucks on 10500 acre and normally that would sound like too many for our country but the key is that only 7 of them were Trophies and the rest were Mgmt or Culls. Our Culls are anything 4 yr that scores 110 or less and we had about 3 last year and we made sure that most were killed by kids. A little over a third were Quality Mgmt Bucks which is 110 to 130 BC and a little over a third were Trophies from 130s up to 167.
Considering we don’t try to Intensively manage nor do we pay for supplemental feed nor do we pay 5 digit lease fees, then all things considered that kind of success keeps all our guys pretty happy.
Back to CULLING. If we culled all the young bucks then we would never have the older bucks the guys love to hunt that score in the 120s. And there is no doubt in my mind that some of the bucks that other places would cull end up being in the 130s or 140s sometimes. Culling may have its place in the Intensively Managed places but for the majority of Texas hunters I just don’t think its practical.

Disclaimer—a long post like this does not mean that I know squat about what im saying so take it for what its worth which hopefully to some it will be at least 2 cents and you paid less than that.

I was on a 5000 acre game ranch. Low fence or no fence as the north boundary is the Sulphur River. No Protein feeding only corn and once the hogs made a wallow the deer didn't even look at the corn feeders.