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A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor #7822207 04/28/20 04:03 PM
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Some of you may remember my earlier post and comments that I had found the 6.5 Creedmoor to be a very picky caliber. I had found that my "go to" brands, Federal and Remington, had shot very poorly in my Savage. And while the highly touted 140 grain Hornady ELD-X was an excellent performer, I also found the much cheaper 125-grain Winchester XP "Deer Season" load performed equally well.

Recently I ran across a report (may have even been a video) that covered how the team at Hornady noticed the tips of their initial test loads were becoming deformed from excess heat. Now if you've ever compared the shape of a 6.5 Creedmoor to the more traditional deer hunting bullets, you'll see it carries a sleeker shape that allows it to cut through the air more easily. Of course the experts call this the Ballistic Coefficient or BC for short but that's another matter. As a result, the team at Hornady decided to go with a bullet that carries a completely different material at the tip, one that would withstand the heat from a bullet traveling at such a high speed. I'm thinking too that the tip of a bullet with a sleeker profile will have less mass to absorb heat. Anyway, after seeing the report, I decided to go back and look at those Federal and Remington loads again and low and behold, both appear to use the same material or something very close to it at the tip. Both the Hornady and Winchester loads use a much different material at the tip of the bullet.

I've always understood that the design of a the tip of bullet is more about creating something that transfers more energy on impact, which is probably why some manufacturers used current designs in building their 6.5 Creedmoor loads. It might also explain why the team at Hornady first tried a current design with their own test loads, only to see them fail their initial accuracy tests.

Last edited by Texas Dan; 04/28/20 04:17 PM.

Dan

Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Texas Dan] #7822229 04/28/20 04:27 PM
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What? I'm not sure I understand your post at all. The melting tip was not occurring or being noticed until about the 700 to 800 yard range. I have spoken with Hornady in detail about this. The parameters where the tip was supposedly melting was on bullets where the muzzle velocity was over 2900 fps AND the BC of the bullet was over about .600 G1. The velocity had to be fast enough and to sustain a higher velocity long enough to even notice a slight difference. 90% of rounds did not meet these parameters, including the 6.5 CM, which has a much lower muzzle velocity of about 2700 fps. So any tip melting issue would not apply to the 6.5 CM due to the lower velocity. And I can assure you that the 6.5 CM is not a finicky round at all. I find it's one of the easiest rounds to load for. And if it doesn't shoot well, then something else is wrong. I would never compare how well my rifle shot based on crappy Remington factory ammo.

I thought Hornady was cannibalizing their own line of bullets when these claims originally came out. I had shooters calling to change bullets in 308, 6.5 CM, etc, and those rounds didn't even apply to the tip melting theory. I've shot many A-max in 300 WM at 2950-3000 fps with high BC's out to 1 mile, and never seen this. I know other shooters also who never saw this. I think it was a blown out deal and good marketing strategy on Hornady's part. Sell bullets by fear.



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Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Texas Dan] #7822243 04/28/20 04:33 PM
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The video Hornady created to explain their initial findings...



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Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Texas Dan] #7822245 04/28/20 04:34 PM
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That was in 2015. It's 2020. I do not need to go watch a video that created so much unneeded drama again, especially if the 6.5 CM is the round you are using to use as a tip melting theory that's not even applicable to your topic.



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Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Texas Dan] #7822257 04/28/20 04:41 PM
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Granted, deformity from excess heat may not be an issue at shorter ranges. However, could some other issue that impacts short-range accuracy be eliminated by adding a separate type of bullet tip, even if it's through production processes alone?


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Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Texas Dan] #7822261 04/28/20 04:42 PM
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Trashcan Dan must have been too busy burning USA flags than to keep up with what's going on at Hornady. IMO this melting bullet tip thing is a farce, as I never had any trouble getting an "old" AMAX to shoot, or perform. It's a joke.

Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Texas Dan] #7822341 04/28/20 05:23 PM
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bang bang bang

Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Texas Dan] #7822362 04/28/20 05:41 PM
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I only have one 6.5 Creedmor - an inexpensive Ruger American "GoWild" camo/cerrakote version and it shoots the proverbial "lights-out" with any load you stuff into it.
Melting tips? Jeez.
I hunted back in the early 80's with a guy that had a 7mag. He was not a careful reloader. We were at the lease one day and he was "sighting in" his new scope with his new 7 mag handloads. Shot 20 rounds and couldn't get on the target. He said he had loaded them by filling them to the rim with powder then seating the bullet. Swore up and down that "the bullets were leaving the rifle so fast that the bullets were vaporizing before they got to the target."
I guess he was one of Dan's relatives.


Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Texas Dan] #7822369 04/28/20 05:43 PM
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Hard to load for , LOL

Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Texas Dan] #7822413 04/28/20 06:06 PM
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Pretty sure I’ve heard many people in this forum discuss how the 6.5CM was the easiest cartridge to load for out of all the ones they have. I don’t reload, so I don’t have a dog in the fight though.


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Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Tff caribou] #7822417 04/28/20 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Tff caribou
Pretty sure I’ve heard many people in this forum discuss how the 6.5CM was the easiest cartridge to load for out of all the ones they have. I don’t reload, so I don’t have a dog in the fight though.

It's so easy even I can do it. Actually the only caliber I load for at the moment.


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Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: KRoyal] #7822427 04/28/20 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by KRoyal
Originally Posted by Tff caribou
Pretty sure I’ve heard many people in this forum discuss how the 6.5CM was the easiest cartridge to load for out of all the ones they have. I don’t reload, so I don’t have a dog in the fight though.

It's so easy even I can do it. Actually the only caliber I load for at the moment.



I thought you changed scales once upon a time and almost blew it up? roflmao

Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: wp75169] #7822439 04/28/20 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by wp75169
Originally Posted by KRoyal
Originally Posted by Tff caribou
Pretty sure I’ve heard many people in this forum discuss how the 6.5CM was the easiest cartridge to load for out of all the ones they have. I don’t reload, so I don’t have a dog in the fight though.

It's so easy even I can do it. Actually the only caliber I load for at the moment.



I thought you changed scales once upon a time and almost blew it up? roflmao

This did happen, but it was my fault not the fault of the caliber I was loading. Also if it hadn't been 114 degrees that day it probably wouldn't have been as hot of a load.


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Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Texas Dan] #7822442 04/28/20 06:24 PM
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Kyle invented the 6.5 Ricky Bobby that day roflmao


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Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Tff caribou] #7822449 04/28/20 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Tff caribou
Pretty sure I’ve heard many people in this forum discuss how the 6.5CM was the easiest cartridge to load for out of all the ones they have. I don’t reload, so I don’t have a dog in the fight though.


He doesn’t either rofl

My opinion, the Amax is/was a better hunting bullet than the ELD anything...except for BC. Rarely heard of inconsistencies with game performance from the Amax. Just sayin’


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Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: 2Beez] #7822450 04/28/20 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Beez
Kyle invented the 6.5 Ricky Bobby that day roflmao

Yep, should be getting royalties from Chad.. LOL


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Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: KRoyal] #7822456 04/28/20 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by KRoyal
Originally Posted by 2Beez
Kyle invented the 6.5 Ricky Bobby that day roflmao

Yep, should be getting royalties from Chad.. LOL

Curious as to how hot it was. You didn't happen to have a chrono that day did you?


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If I choose to hunt in a coon tail hat, a pink tootoo and hip waders that is my fine...
Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: KRoyal] #7822457 04/28/20 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by KRoyal
Originally Posted by 2Beez
Kyle invented the 6.5 Ricky Bobby that day roflmao

Yep, should be getting royalties from Chad.. LOL



He’s why Hornady had to change their tip.

Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: unclebubba] #7822459 04/28/20 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by unclebubba
Originally Posted by KRoyal
Originally Posted by 2Beez
Kyle invented the 6.5 Ricky Bobby that day roflmao

Yep, should be getting royalties from Chad.. LOL

Curious as to how hot it was. You didn't happen to have a chrono that day did you?

I didn't, but it was hot enough that it blew the primers out of the last 5 I shot on a stage. I shot a total of 11 rounds before I called it quits. Looking back really glad nothing blew up on me.


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Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Texas Dan] #7822477 04/28/20 06:50 PM
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At DSC a few years ago I spoke to the Hornady rep and he stated that the melting tips was way over rated and only happened under the right conditions when folks were pushing the bullets really fast, like well over 3000 fps. He said he stocked up on Amax's cause he liked them so much but that there was nothing wrong with the ELD's. So I think this an old problem that was put to bed a long time ago.

Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Shaner] #7822488 04/28/20 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Shaner
So I think this an old problem that was put to bed a long time ago.


Yes, until now.



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Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Texas Dan] #7822492 04/28/20 07:00 PM
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While both Hornady and Winchester describe the tips of their ammo has having "polymer" construction, they each tout separate benefits. Hornady claims the polymer they use doesn't deform at high velocities, while Winchester touts their tips "accelerates expansion resulting in rapid impact trauma." That would make sense when you think about it. Hornady was looking to position their new load as a great target round, while Winchester was clearly targeting hunters with their XP Series. It would also appear that while Hornady put in a lot of effort to develop their 6.5 Creedmoor ammo, it was by pure coincidence that Winchester created a load that would be a great performer at a lower cost.


Dan

Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Texas Dan] #7822495 04/28/20 07:02 PM
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Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: Texas Dan] #7822498 04/28/20 07:04 PM
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The polymer tip does multiple things. Yes, Hornady claims their tips do not melt. Having a polymer tip allows for a more consistent tip (unlike a hollow point), and a larger opening behind the tip. This larger opening allows for easier expansion. The polymer tip does multiple things. And if you call the Hornady tip a Ballistic Tip, I'm punching something!



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Re: A possible common denominator with the 6.5 Creedmoor [Re: ChadTRG42] #7822516 04/28/20 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ChadTRG42
The polymer tip does multiple things.
one is to sell bullets


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