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Not encouraging ! #7798186 04/07/20 02:26 AM
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Deersteaks Offline OP
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East Texas lease prices are steadily getting higher ! frown I grew up hunting on an East Texas lease ( Polk county ) from the time I could drag my Red Rider BB gun around.That lease taught me so much about hunting and the outdoors! We shot Deer, Squirrel,Rabbits,Woodcocks,Quail, Robbins, and even a stray hog, although back then that was rare. It was honestly all my father and uncles could afford . We took some really nice deer off of that place and were very thankful for them. Didn't here or even know anything about "Gross" or "Net" Boone and Crockett inches on a buck. That was a discussion for south Texas hunters only! We took whatever size buck made us feel good, and the fact that back then, shooting does was frowned upon, the bucks were not just for horns, but for meat as well. A couple that were taken on the old place were probably in the high 30 to low 40 range, but 120-125 was still a very respectable deer. I would be a liar to say that we didn't compete year to year on who got the biggest one, but it was all in fun! I never once had to hear my dad say, son,"That deer isn't old enough", or "Son, that buck isn't wide enough" ! When I turned 18, I was able to become an actual member of the lease and pay my lease dues out of money that "I" had earned and saved! Boy, was I proud of that ! I still hunt East Texas and I love it, but things are changing, and I'm not so sure it's all for the better. Now I'm not saying that the new rules haven't had some positive effect's, as I have seen them first hand! My question is I guess, what exactly are we trying to do, and for whom are we trying to do it ? Now, this question is "only" for those can't afford to hunt in Central or South Texas ! I shouldn't have to explain that! Understand that, many, many people are limited on what they can afford and that for a lot of people, size still isn't important ! I have heard it said that "Taking only mature bucks is better for the herd in general" ! OK, then why have the same people said that we have had a constant population growth of deer in our state for the last 40 or 50 years! I know there are exceptions to the rule with anthrax and other diseases, but this has nothing to do with size or age requirements! Guess younger bucks can breed better than they thought ! Or maybe fewer people are hunting because we keep finding ways to make it harder to enjoy. I guess my point is, why are we so set on making East Texas so difficult and expensive to hunt ? Hunting should be fun and something that is appealing to any novice hunter who may want to try something new ! Many of the leases for east Texas that I see are well over $1000 per year! Some are closing in on $2000 ! Remember when I said "this question was only for those who can't afford to hunt south or central Texas" ? What are we doing???

Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Deersteaks] #7798217 04/07/20 02:53 AM
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Antler restrictions are working and the hunting is getting better so as demand goes up prices go up.


Originally Posted by bill oxner
I plowed mules.
Originally Posted by Roll-Tide
I did build a cabin. Aka the brokeback shack.

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Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Deersteaks] #7798222 04/07/20 03:01 AM
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I think the management mentality has done as much to affect lease pricing as much as anything. Many believe that anything less than 400-1000 acres per hunter is too crowded, which means that fewer hunters spread out the cost of the lease driving the individual cost up. Fewer hunters on a piece of property makes it easier to mandate a management plan that may or may not be reasonable for the genetics in the area. Many of the old style east Texas hunting clubs would have one hunter per 100 acres or less which folks that have only hunted wide open west Texas or protein rich vegetation south Texas can't understand. My question has always been is that 400-1000 acres per hunter due to safety or fewer hunters hunting the same deer. I to $5have leased timber company land in east Texas for over 12 years, have more hunters for each property that many would be criticizing, but it keeps the price down for most hunters to be able to afford. I have yet to lose a member because he felt he was too crowded. Every time I lose a member I ask the rest of the guys if they would rather absorb the cost and not fill the opening or fill the opening- every time I hear "fill the spot". So I just let the "lease experts" do what they do and I do what I do. Nobody puts a gun to anyone's head to join a lease- I personally don't have $3k to $5k annually in disposable income.

Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: SapperTitan] #7798224 04/07/20 03:02 AM
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Absolutely true, hunting is 100% better since the antler restrictions have been implemented.

Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Deersteaks] #7798226 04/07/20 03:04 AM
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To be fair, prices for South Texas and West Texas have both gone up as well. And no. I can't afford a south Texas Golden Triangle lease.


Originally Posted by txhuntingguide
If I choose to hunt in a coon tail hat, a pink tootoo and hip waders that is my fine...
Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Deersteaks] #7798278 04/07/20 04:30 AM
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I won't argue that there are some nicer bucks being taken due to antler restrictions, but to what avail. As a whole, east Texas hunters "Don't Want" to pay higher prices. We don't care if we take a 160" Booner! Sure, we would if he came out, but most would rather just hunt! Not talking about poachers or if its brown, its down mentality! Law abiding american citizens who just want to hunt! People need to understand (TPWL Included) that if we wanted to trophy hunt, we would! We choose to hunt east Texas on purpose! We don't have to have an over the top management practice to enjoy hunting! To be able to sit on the stand and say, yeah, he's good enough, and not worry if someone else approves or not! We are only allotted a certain amount of deer per hunter. If some want to manage their leases, fine, have at it! But don't force others to do the same. Would be a boring world if everyone had to drive a Ford ! What if...what if... every hunter started taking large,mature bucks. Think about it! How would that effect things and what rules would change then. Now we can only shoot a big buck every other year, or have a lottery system so only certain people can take one! Where do we stop it. If we stopped illegal hunting alone, and left things the way they were before the antler restrictions and shortened doe days, we would still be fine. Prices would still go up as that's just the nature of things! But not at the pace they are now. It worked for decades and the deer heard thrived! Maybe you wouldn't see as many trophy bucks! Ok.........Wheres the problem? People have a choice, but the choices are getting thinner! It has always amazed me that most of the people who push so hard for the new law's are same ones who can afford to hunt anywhere! If this isn't you, no harm, no foul! If it is you, then shame on you for pushing your way of doing things on the little guys who just want to be left alone to do it their way (within the law) , and "HUNT"

Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Deersteaks] #7798407 04/07/20 01:10 PM
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Deersteaks don’t know that I know the answer to your questions, unfortunately change is the only constant and any time there is a resource involved the price will ever only go up, primarily because the number of us constantly goes up. I grew up hunting a lot of East Texas and western Louisiana timber company lands I can remember hunting single blocks of land over 60,000 acres and it didn’t cost a dime (may have been a few dogs involved as well!), I can also remember fishing in 20-30 oxbow lakes along the river and there never being a single gate or paying a penny. All those places are under lock and key now and you have to pay to play on any of them. I’ve noticed the price of leases go up across the state, and don’t see it slowing down any time soon. I currently lease a couple properties close to each other from one family and the brother I deal with said one of the other brothers is saying he wants to go up on the price next year. I believe we’re paying $18 per acre now and I don’t really want to pay more but they’ll probably get $20-$25 if they list it. Guess it’s just the way it is. I’ve seen listings on here where people have 100 acres or less and they’re wanting 2-3 members at $2,000 each. It’s crazy, but it’s their land.

Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Txhunter65] #7798676 04/07/20 04:33 PM
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Deersteaks, you have already gotten some good replies and will probably get more. Ill say up front that I am the type guy you are referring to that pays a lot to hunt and I try to encourage others to try and manage the deer and habitat to maximize older and thus larger bucks. That doesn't mean I am your enemy. I have been around the block enough to understand your situation and your thinking and I commend you for explaining your situation to others in a way they should understand. I don't know Russ79 but I have followed his posts on here enough to consider him our best source of knowledge about ETX leasing/hunting. He also articulates well and stays level headed and likely has the best grasp of your question so take his comments to heart.
My feedback on your dilemma wont give you much comfort, and its just my opinion. Bottom line you are saying you "just want to hunt" and do not put a premium on the size of the buck so you don't feel like the price should be going up at the rate you perceive it is. I will admit that there are others that feel like you. However, Texas is almost all privately owned so the landowner can and should do what he wants. If the demand is there(whether its because the hunting is better or not) then the landowner can get a higher price. Free market, supply and demand, whatever you call it, its just a fact. It sounds like you almost WANT the deer quality to not improve because you think theres a direct correlation to the price. That has some logic and it may even work on a case by case basis but I doubt its any generalized long-term solution. Lastly, just remember the landowner holds the keys to the castle(rightfully so) so look at things from his perspective. I know there are lots of good folks out there that "just want to hunt" and don't want to pay todays prices and I wish you all luck.


Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Deersteaks] #7798763 04/07/20 05:55 PM
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They won;t be going down.


Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back.
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Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Deersteaks] #7798782 04/07/20 06:10 PM
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If we don't get this virus controlled and oil stays in the toilet they will come down,I know many people in the metro mess and Houston that are hoping they can keep their jobs and there not oil related.My son in law and daughter have ( lost ) 40,000 in their 401 k, so money they might gain back but for him to spend 5 grand to hunt is out of the question

Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: bp3] #7798821 04/07/20 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bp3
If we don't get this virus controlled and oil stays in the toilet they will come down,I know many people in the metro mess and Houston that are hoping they can keep their jobs and there not oil related.My son in law and daughter have ( lost ) 40,000 in their 401 k, so money they might gain back but for him to spend 5 grand to hunt is out of the question

to your point, there is a line of 10-1000+ waiting in line to pay the price ... or so it seems ... regardless of those that either can not afford or not willing to pay.

reference point, I had a free lease (114 acres) of a friend of mine that I did all the game management, paperwork and improvements (wildlife exemption) for the hunting rights for about 10 years and lots of blood, sweat & tears. I even talked to all the surrounding landowners (several 1000 acres all totaled) and their hunters to build the herd into proper ratios and let them age. We saw drastic improvements at about year #7, everyone (LOs, hunters, etc.) were very pleased. Market crash in '08/'09, my friend (LO) was in a bad bind and leased the place out, to a husband/wife and her father for $6k ($2k each hunter) ... that is the opposite from what you described ... and there was a line with cash in hand ready to jump on the opportunity. It can go both ways


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Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Deersteaks] #7798829 04/07/20 07:12 PM
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prices will not go down while few may struggle due to the covid crisis and oil slowing down there are still way to many people in line just waiting for good places to open up. if they go down I would be shocked. I bet bunch of places will have spots open but they will be taken up fast as they come available.

Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Deersteaks] #7798857 04/07/20 08:03 PM
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When I first moved to east Texas over 35 years ago I found myself surrounded by thousands of acres of timber company land that was free to hunt, with only a handful or so of the old style hunting clubs. Then over time, as one company bought out another the ones left standing realized they were leaving money on the table by not leasing out the hunting rights. When that started, along with outlawing deer hunting with dogs, there was a lot of heartburn for the folks that started putting together leases with locked gates- poaching, road hunting, "random" fires" by disgruntled east Texans. As I started hunting east Texas I learned which color paint on the trees was for which timber company and would call to make sure it was open to hunt. Historically, timber companies owned land to supply their different mills. At one time I believe International Paper, who I eventually went to work for, was the largest corporate land owner in the U.S. owning at one time over six million acres. Now I am not sure if they own an acre of land. Most timber company land is now owned by holding companies and conglomerates where their only business is growing and selling timber- the local connections between a mill, the town, and the local folks which probably was the reason for so many years of free hunting is now gone. I lease three tracts of timber company land and one thing I have figured out over years of leasing...If you don't screw up and violate the timber company rules or get crosswise with the game wardens you can have it for about as long as you want it. I don't have to worry about getting that phone call that the land owner died, the land is being sold or the kids are taking it over, and I have a month to get all my stuff off. I can put in food plots just like on private property, we put in common sense rules that makes it where you don't have to stay puckered up over the buck you just shot is 4-1/2 versus the 5-1/2 the rules say he has to be, and I am lucky to have three leases with members that are not "if it's brown its down" mentality- although the AR help with that. And yes the prices on those leases go up but at least Campbell has now gone back to three year contracts so I can see what the lease will cost this year, next year, and the year after.

Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Russ79] #7798893 04/07/20 08:41 PM
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Good job Russ. Kind of got it back on topic. Several posts were more about how the Virus may effect this years pricing and there is another thread or two about that. Deersteaks, the OP, never mentioned Virus or implied that was a concern of his. He was talking more about the general increase of prices over the last many years and concerns they would continue to increase over years to come. He also tried to make it clear he was talking about East Texas and not other areas that are likely much higher in price. Anyway, im not trying to be the "stay on topic police" so yall post whatever you want. I do not hunt East Texas but I know a little about it and it is definitely in its own little world in comparison to many areas of the State so it may be worthy of its own thread.


Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Deersteaks] #7798949 04/07/20 09:42 PM
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If the cost of hunting / recreational leases had kept pace with prices of everything else in your life, there wouldn't be a lease anywhere in the state for less than $35 per acre, most likely considerably more.

Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: freerange] #7798970 04/07/20 10:05 PM
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Prices for leases in East Texas will continue to increase for multiple reasons,

As county's and school districts increase taxes, landowners are going to increase lease prices. A lot of folks use lease money to pay taxes.

There are more folks wanting to hunt, thus a simple factor of economics, supply and demand. When my lease agreement is up, the cost is going up. Centerville in Leon County is exactly half way between Houston and Dallas which an easy draw from both areas.

Hunters are demanding more all the time, they want a lot more today than they did in the 60's and 70's. Demand more, pay more. Years ago folks would go to the lease once during the summer and from November to January, now they want year round access.

Lessor's are becoming more cranky as they demand more, thus landowners get tired and stop leasing.

Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Deersteaks] #7798986 04/07/20 10:26 PM
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All the above is why my wife told me to quitchabitching and buy some land. So we did, and live there now.


Not my monkeys, not my circus...
Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: 603Country] #7799009 04/07/20 11:03 PM
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Years ago my Father was on a lease in the hill country and for some reason got off and we ended up on a place he found again in the hill country.

First year we killed nothing, next year we killed a couple of bucks, back then does were not legal. Third year we killed 10 bucks on a 5 gun lease Land owner said we had to go, as he did not want that many deer killed.. Father said that was it and was time to buy a place for the family, we ended up in East Texas..

If I were forced to lease for me to hunt, I would quit hunting.

I lease now, but I can see those days going away be cause of the aggravation of dealing with folks who will not follow the lease agreement. Seems folks today view the land as their own when leasing, not the landowners.

As I said before, I do not see the lease prices in East Texas ever going down One of the other reasons is that there are too many folks with a lot of money who are willing to bid the price up.. I here a lot folks lose there lease because some others bid up the price on them.


Last edited by fishdfly; 04/07/20 11:12 PM.
Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: fishdfly] #7799016 04/07/20 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by fishdfly
Years ago my Father was on a lease in the hill country and for some reason got off and we ended up on a place he found again in the hill country.

First year we killed nothing, next year we killed a couple of bucks, back then does were not legal. Third year we killed 10 bucks on a 5 gun lease Land owner said we had to go, as he did not want that many deer killed.. Father said that was it and was time to buy a place for the family, we ended up in East Texas..

If I were forced to lease for me to hunt, I would quit hunting.

I lease now, but I can see those days going away be cause of the aggravation of dealing with folks who will not follow the lease agreement. Seems folks today view the land as their own when leasing, not the landowners.


Fishdfly, I have heard that a lot on this forum so you will get some that agree completely. Lots of others, not so much. Personally, I have leased a lot and have never had much of a problem. Like almost anything in life, you will get all kinds of different opinions and perspectives. Thank goodness, that we live in a free country so rather we are the leasee or the leasor we have the right to chose.


Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: freerange] #7799021 04/07/20 11:13 PM
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Agree.

Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: fishdfly] #7799781 04/08/20 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by fishdfly
Agree.

X2


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Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Deersteaks] #7799877 04/08/20 05:08 PM
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I understand the concept of if you get more you pay more. When it comes to east Texas timber company leases don't expect much more than a piece of ground to hunt. Most, if not all, will not have electricity or water. You can park a travel trailer for a fee and use a generator and haul in your own water. I do know of one timber company lease in Cherokee county that does provide more- there are stands and feeders in place and the lease manager will keep the feeders full, will put in food plots (for a fee)...basically turn key where you just show up and hunt. And for that he is allowed by the timber company to charge more than what he leases the property for. That kind of a set up isn't for me, nor would I pay what he charges, but for some that would work.

Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: Deersteaks] #7803662 04/12/20 02:21 PM
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nothing is getting cheaper.. except things made in china like flat screen TVs. Everything else is more expensive... a ticket to the movies is what? $10-12? I have 4 kids and when we all go to the movie, it's a $100 event.

as far as changes in deer hunting, people have learned how to get deer bigger. You let them get older. You feed them. you make short term sacrifices in order to have better herd year to year.

lease prices... as many people that wont' spend the money, there are people that have the money. there are a lot of millionaires in this state, and buying land is the cool new thing to do. But ultimately, a lease is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If someone pays $10,000 for a lease, then it's worth it. It doesn't have to be worth it to everyone, just the person who's writing the check.

A main driver is just through the natural inheritance process. Old man dies, leaves 1000 acres to his 5 kids. Now each kid has 200 acres. They die, and leave each of their 2 kids 100 acres... so forth and so on, until the entire god damn state is nothing but 25 acre "ranchettes" of people with 3 cows and a goat acting like they're the next big thing in american ranching. most people can't afford to buy 1000 acres, but there are a whole hell of a lot of people that can afford 100-200 acres, and it's all getting split up, and sold off.

Last edited by kyle1974; 04/12/20 02:26 PM.
Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: kyle1974] #7803722 04/12/20 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by kyle1974
nothing is getting cheaper.. except things made in china like flat screen TVs. Everything else is more expensive... a ticket to the movies is what? $10-12? I have 4 kids and when we all go to the movie, it's a $100 event.

as far as changes in deer hunting, people have learned how to get deer bigger. You let them get older. You feed them. you make short term sacrifices in order to have better herd year to year.

lease prices... as many people that wont' spend the money, there are people that have the money. there are a lot of millionaires in this state, and buying land is the cool new thing to do. But ultimately, a lease is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If someone pays $10,000 for a lease, then it's worth it. It doesn't have to be worth it to everyone, just the person who's writing the check.

A main driver is just through the natural inheritance process. Old man dies, leaves 1000 acres to his 5 kids. Now each kid has 200 acres. They die, and leave each of their 2 kids 100 acres... so forth and so on, until the entire god damn state is nothing but 25 acre "ranchettes" of people with 3 cows and a goat acting like they're the next big thing in american ranching. most people can't afford to buy 1000 acres, but there are a whole hell of a lot of people that can afford 100-200 acres, and it's all getting split up, and sold off.

^^^Nothing incorrect in that post.


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Re: Not encouraging ! [Re: 603Country] #7804043 04/12/20 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 603Country
All the above is why my wife told me to quitchabitching and buy some land. So we did, and live there now.


^^^^^^^^

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