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Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. #7768167 03/11/20 06:05 AM
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I'll admit. I have less than 200 rounds sent downrange with a Muzzleloader. Saying that I've sent quite a few down range centerfire. I see these reviews of factory guns and guys claiming 1/2in at 100yds. I do well to throw three rounds 1 1/2in. Is there truth to this? How many of y'all can say you can consistently shoot 1in or less at 100yds? Don't get me wrong. 1in or less is my goal. Just wondering how obtainable it might be.

Last edited by John Stockman; 03/11/20 06:06 AM.
Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7768190 03/11/20 10:41 AM
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I just don't believe anyone is shooting 1/2 in. at 100 yds. with a muzzleloader. I have quite a bit of experience with them, and just don't think it can be done with a traditional open sighted one. I don't know much about scoped inlines, as I have no use for them..no matter how well they shoot, so I can't say what they do...….but I doubt they do the 1/2 in. either.

Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7768266 03/11/20 12:49 PM
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With a rifle sure it is doable.

Im sure it is possible with a front stuffer too, just not for me. I shoot a 54 cal reproduction hawken, the sights are not very fine. I practice most at 50 yards and can pretty much keep every shot for as many as I shoot in a group the size of a tennis ball. Im sure some of the modern muzzleloaders are much more capable though and with a scope etc. it would help my eyes.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7768577 03/11/20 05:54 PM
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Bunk.

If they are doing that they would be setting State and National records.

Proof is pictures of the targets as witnessed and signed by the witness.

Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7768670 03/11/20 06:58 PM
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They make Muzzle loaders now a days that are nothing like a cap/flint lock hawken etc. They have long range muzzle loaders with people on youtube taking game at 600 yards. I have no doubt they could achieve sub moa and call it a muzzle loader, but its not what I consider a muzzle loader.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7768702 03/11/20 07:15 PM
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Show me the target and I will believe it. .

Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7768805 03/11/20 08:21 PM
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It depends what kind. A somewhat modern inline might do it. I have a flintlock rifle that has produced 1.5" groups at 100-yards off the bench if I do everything right. The rifle is 190 years old but the rifling has been recently re-cut. Patched ball with black powder.... here's a 3-shot group
[Linked Image]

Last edited by JABHunting; 03/11/20 08:21 PM.
Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7770413 03/13/20 02:24 AM
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A few years back, I spent a lot of time and money on accurizing my T/C Encore muzzleloader. Used bullets from these guys:

https://www.prbullet.com/pts.htm

Spent some time on the phone with the owner picking his brain and used a lot of his tips.

Used a small rifle primer in a converted breech plug (used a .25 ACP pistol brass) and loose powder. It was a major ordeal, but I could absolutely shoot sub-MOA groups off the bench. Shot hundreds of bullets down range with various charges until I found the perfect load. Quit doing it after a while, as it was a hunting rifle. Too many components to keep track of in a tree stand. Went back to pellets and a 209 primer with regular sabot bullets. Not as accurate, but way simpler. My muzzleloader shots are 99% under 100 yards, so not as critical.

Never thought to take signed photos.

Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7774629 03/17/20 03:59 AM
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Just like many guys claiming their deer rifle shoots .2s and .3s--- these statements must be taken with a grain of salt... BUT after seeing the thread over on LRH or 24hcf where someone challenged guys about this same thing there were a LARGE number who had targets in the .3s. Now that is all centerfire.

I will say- with the technology today and with consistent load procedures I've seen phenomenal accuracy out of $350 centerfires AND $350 muzzleloaders.

Ive had two CVA Accuras that will shoot at or under 1" at 100 yards when topped with a scope... with my peep sight set up I can't get quite that good a group but I killed my mule deer and my elk this year in CO open sights each shot over 100 yards. My personal best was at 150 yards and a 3 shot group that printed 1.5" with 80gr by volume of BH209 and a black sabot harvester PT Gold bullet.

Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7774798 03/17/20 01:16 PM
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Again not a muzzle loader in my mind, but Best of the West advertises a 1 moa guarantee on their "muzzleloaders".


It's hell eatin em live
Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7775503 03/17/20 11:29 PM
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I am going by the TPWD definition:

Muzzleloader: any firearm that is loaded only through the muzzle (as opposed to breech-loading firearms). A cap and ball firearm in which the powder and ball are loaded into a cylinder is not a muzzleloader. Muzzleloader deer seasons are restricted to muzzleloading firearms only.

Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7779660 03/21/20 01:58 AM
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I have no doubt it is possible with modern equipment. My question is unless you are shooting competition... what does it matter.
Most guys I know use a muzzle loader to hunt. Best I recall, I don't have to shoot those kind of groups to kill a deer.


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Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7784655 03/25/20 02:38 PM
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I'm with Adchunts on the definition of muzzle loaders.
I'm sure most smoke poles are capable after breakin and if kept clean and oiled to fend off rust, specifically in the bore as unchecked black powder will eat the rifling quickly and accuracy will suffer.

The main problem is not the gun, it's the crude sights, lack of magnification, old eyes, etc. that is usually the limiting factor.

Also, most people don't develop a loading sequence so they can repeat each step every time and consistency is all over the place.
The sprue on some of the roundballs can make or break your groups.


Cheers,
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Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7784755 03/25/20 04:06 PM
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Going by Texas definition of a muzzleloader. My savage smokeless can shoot sub moa at 100 yards easy and I hunt with it at more than double that. It is one of the most accurate rifles I own, muzzleloader and centerfire combined. Some years it has been the only deer hunting rifle I use. But I pre weigh the charge. I weigh the xtp bullets to remove those off weight. It's very heavy with a thumb hole stock that fits me well. And it has a nice scope. But I know that's not the kind of configuration your talking about.

If I remove the scope and use the open sights which are fairly nice on this particular rifle. If instead of sabots and XTPs, I order a set of test bullets from Thor to determine the precise diameter Thor bullet to then purchase and sight in with. Then test blackpowder alternative loads at the range with that combination for best accuracy and swab the barrel between shots. There is no doubt in my mind it would still shoot sub moa at 100 yards. This on a bull bag off a shooting bench to remove as much human error as possible too of course.

My patched round ball shooter with traditional black powder on the other hand I would never use at 100 yards. I tested several loads for the best range with accuracy and best I came up that I felt comfortable for deer hunting was no more than 85 yards. I have not used that rifle in a long time, but I have taken more deer with it than most of my rifles.

Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: Sniper John] #7785010 03/25/20 06:44 PM
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I just started with a muzzleloader this past season since I got a second lease in Okla and there rifle season is real short. Im too inexperienced to offer much to this thread but im very interested so I hope it keeps going. I do think that the OP was talking about a "modern" muzzleloader with a scope.


Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7785078 03/25/20 07:43 PM
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I think it is very doable with some well made traditional style rifles after making improvements like installing better sights, working on the trigger, testing for the most accurate combination of components along, load testing, keeping everything consistent between shots, etc. but not so much out of the box with a random factory load. Some inlines on the other hand get into a whole different class of muzzleloader. That advantage is why some states don't allow smokeless, sabots, scopes, etc. I think there are at least one or two states having seasons that don't even allow inlines.

My rifle
https://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_accuracy_loads.htm

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[Linked Image]

Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7787806 03/28/20 01:21 PM
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My Hawkins will shoot under an inch at 100, with iron sites. 245 gr powerbelts with 90 grains of pyrodex rs.

I can only get 1 3/4-2” with My uncles scoped tc encore Prohunter. I have tried a lot of powder/bullet combinations.


Here was pics of the Hawkins, this encor pictured is my brothers. I would call either of the prohunter accurate. They are more than good enough to hunt.

https://texashuntingforum.com/forum...2425/thompson-center-hawkins#Post6722425

Last edited by SowHntr; 03/28/20 01:30 PM.



Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: Sniper John] #7787820 03/28/20 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper John

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


Beautiful tool you have there Sir!
Not my definition of muzzle loader but dang!

Also loving your hunting blind in the second pic.


Cheers,
Vern1
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Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7788424 03/29/20 12:35 AM
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[Linked Image]


Spartans ask not...how many, but where!
Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: flintknapper] #7788893 03/29/20 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by flintknapper
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Flintknapper, 2 for 2 is a very good start. Please don't take it wrong when I ask if you have reason to believe 3,4, 5 would be close by. Im seriously wanting to understand the accuracy potential of a muzzleloader and to me two shots isn't nearly a large enough sample size.


Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Guys saying sub moa at 100yds. [Re: John Stockman] #7789745 03/30/20 04:41 AM
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It is doable, but not easy for the casual shooter. Like Sniper John there are many variables, they all have to be addressed and checked and double checked. Some friends of mine treat their muzzleloader shooting experiences like a religion, they weigh the bullets, they weigh the powder, they even use a caliper to check the diameter of the bullets.

They laugh when I use a powder measure to pour my powder, and just grabbing a ball and patch. And yes they out shoot me, but I hit the target, satisfied, besides I am blind in one eye and will eventually have to have cataracts removed from my good eye, so I have lots of excuses for my 6 inch circle.


Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back.
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