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BROW TINES #7770401 03/13/20 02:13 AM
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What is the number one reason for a buck not to have brow tines? Thanks Daniel

Last edited by DLALLDER; 03/13/20 02:14 AM.






Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7770409 03/13/20 02:20 AM
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Im gonna say the number one reason is immaturity. Tons of yearlings don't have brows, see it on some of our 2 year olds as well. By 3 though I would say 99% of our deer have both brows.

Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7770425 03/13/20 02:36 AM
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Genetics or more lack of good ones...

Re: BROW TINES [Re: DQ Kid] #7770580 03/13/20 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by DQ Kid
Genetics or more lack of good ones...


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Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7770600 03/13/20 11:35 AM
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Genetics, we always shot the ones without brow tines (culls).

Re: BROW TINES [Re: snake oil] #7770717 03/13/20 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by snake oil
Genetics, we always shot the ones without brow tines (culls).


And yet, you keep shooting deer without brow tines. Why do you think that is?

Re: BROW TINES [Re: Texas buckeye] #7770834 03/13/20 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas buckeye
Originally Posted by snake oil
Genetics, we always shot the ones without brow tines (culls).


And yet, you keep shooting deer without brow tines. Why do you think that is?


Could it be that the doe contributes the gene for that characteristic? I have been told 4 genes make up a buck's rack, 2 from the buck and 2 from the doe. I don't remember which genes from which animal, does anyone else know? Thanks







Re: BROW TINES [Re: Texas buckeye] #7770906 03/13/20 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas buckeye
Originally Posted by snake oil
Genetics, we always shot the ones without brow tines (culls).


And yet, you keep shooting deer without brow tines. Why do you think that is?


I am not on that lease anymore but as I understand it they no longer see any without brows and there never was very many anyway.

Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7770908 03/13/20 04:42 PM
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Dlallder, you are right on, half the genetics come from the doe and there is no way to know which doe have good antler genetics vs average vs bad....

Point being if you are wasting tags shooting deer you don’t want to “to get rid of the ones with no brow tines” then you are wasting tags for nothing, unless you are on a HF and have introduced known genetics and are working to eliminate the native animals. But on a LF or basic HF (no breeding program, introduces genetics, etc) the point should be to shoot deer you want and manage for habitat, nutrition, and numbers, but don’t waste tags shooting deer you don’t want thinking you are getting rid of the bad genetics.

Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7770980 03/13/20 05:37 PM
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Texas buckeye, I could not disagree more. You are correct when you say it is impossible to tell the quality of antler that will come from the doe. However, if a buck grows a rack that is inferior to whatever bar you set then you would be foolish NOT to cull that buck because you KNOW that he has inferior genetics. We can debate what constitutes a good rack and at what age that can be determined but if you don't want bucks with no brows but you don't shoot them for not wanting to "waste" a tag, then why even try to manage the herd?


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Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7771018 03/13/20 05:59 PM
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let me set the stage for what I am discussing, and probably applies to the far majority of us on this forum, what I am discussing is applicable for LF hunting or HF hunting in situations where there is just a fence and no introduced genetics or breeding program in place....

wsjaxIV, the reason the argument take place is because shooting deer with no brow tines does nothing more than simply take out that one deer. It does nothing to change the genetics of the deer herd. Yes, it takes out that one buck, but if you see no brow tines as a non-desirable feature and just shooting that buck to remove that one individual (i.e. mouth to feed) then you would be better off shooting a doe, otherwise you are wasting a buck tag on an undesirable buck.

Management for the vast majority should consist of several factors first: habitat, maximal nutrition, allowing deer to age, then reducing deer to carrying capacity or lower, followed by reducing buck:doe ratio, then if all else is in line, maybe start shooting the bottom dwellers for each age class as you have tags available based upon whatever "bar" is set for antler size and strategy you want whether no brows or points or whatever. Vast majority of places never get past the first couple, and rarely will any place get down to the bottom of that list.

BUT, shooting bucks with no brow tines prior to doing the above first is forgetting several things:
1. your doe:buck ratio will get skewed toward doe
2. you will likely be shooting younger bucks and not allowing them to age
3. the doe contribute 50% of the bucks genetic make up and the no brow gene may be entirely on the doe side...no way to know
4. most bucks will on average breed 1-2 doe per year of life, some do this quickly over a few years and don't do much later, some are more steady but only hit a few per year, but breeding is not all done by the old "dominant" bucks on the property

Working in an effort to no "waste tags" the vast majority of us should shoot more doe, let bucks age, and not worry that the "no brow tine" buck is going to spread its "bad genes" through the herd. Chances are if you see a lot of no brow tine deer in your herd, it is because the genetics are there (and you aren't changing that, remember doe) or there are other issues such as too many mouths to feed, poor nutrition, or stress from environment or predators.

Bottom line: shoot bucks you want to shoot because you like that buck, not because you don't like that buck.

Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7771254 03/13/20 09:26 PM
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We will have to agree to disagree.


"The world is littered with the bodies of people that tried to stick it to ole J.R."

J.R. Ewing, 1981
Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7771257 03/13/20 09:29 PM
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To answer the OP's question, sometimes it is due to hunters. I have seen several hunters this year shoot parts of their deers' racks off.

Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7771354 03/13/20 11:00 PM
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Bucky flawed here. Take care of what you know and can see. If you have one buck tag and two come out without brow tines, shoot the smaller one and don't let the bigger one get away.

Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7771396 03/13/20 11:46 PM
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Hudbone, hard to understand what you are saying as it is self contradictory (shoot the smaller one and don’t let the big one walk?), but...

what I said above is if you aren’t after a deer with small or non-existent brow tines, then why shoot either? Save the tag for a doe. The concept of having a tag burning and “you need” to shoot a buck no matter what just throws management out the window anyway.

But if you are itching that hard to shoot a buck, then of the two listed I would shoot the older buck as the smaller one may be a 2.5 yo buck that has some potential for the future.

Last edited by Texas buckeye; 03/13/20 11:51 PM.
Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7772063 03/14/20 05:47 PM
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If culling and have a choice between two bucks of the same age, always take the smaller one. Never try to cull bucks without having buck to doe ratio where desired.

Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7772174 03/14/20 07:40 PM
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Hud, that makes sense. If same age, and you have numbers and ratios in line and need to take some bucks from certain age classes, then def shoot the smaller one first.

I would guess the vast majority on here have not let those criteria though, probably never will.

Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7774170 03/16/20 08:24 PM
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When I am not getting the bucks that are good quality for my area, I take more does as does gives 60% genes to the fawn. If I am having pretty good quality bucks I try to save the does as much as up to 56% ....then and only take as many needed to satisfy my management plan. I like a 1.2-1.3 ratio. Where I hunt that is 45 does to 35 bucks for a 8.03 density number. This works for us so far. Each year I have to make adjustments to get the plan...depending on the number of fawns which dictates my harvest. For us ...we get some without brow tines...some of those bucks are great trophies, as some are very large bucks. I don't mind giving up brow tines for wide spreads and many points. Genetics can not be changed nor shaped, but it helps to work the herd by adjusting the way I mentioned earlier. Good luck...I'm ready for next year!

Re: BROW TINES [Re: wsjaxIV] #7774176 03/16/20 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by wsjaxIV
Texas buckeye, I could not disagree more. You are correct when you say it is impossible to tell the quality of antler that will come from the doe. However, if a buck grows a rack that is inferior to whatever bar you set then you would be foolish NOT to cull that buck because you KNOW that he has inferior genetics. We can debate what constitutes a good rack and at what age that can be determined but if you don't want bucks with no brows but you don't shoot them for not wanting to "waste" a tag, then why even try to manage the herd?


Perception isn’t reality and it’s documented that environmental factors affect b/c score more then genetics.

You can’t manage for genetics on open range, but if you think you can knock your self out, Infact you better use both bucks tags from everyone one on the lease for multiple decades before taking a trophy.

If king ranch couldn’t do it in less then a decade with exponentially more resources, Joe blow with his 5 tags aren’t.

If you need a justification to convince your landowner/yourself/ or lease boss to shot another buck so be it, but call it what it is. Population control and ratio.

Foolish isn’t letting an immure buck walk if you doe to buck ratio is 4-1, you should be hammering does instead of bucks anyway.


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Re: BROW TINES [Re: fishbait] #7774180 03/16/20 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by fishbait
When I am not getting the bucks that are good quality for my area, I take more does as does gives 60% genes to the fawn. If I am having pretty good quality bucks I try to save the does as much as up to 56% ....then and only take as many needed to satisfy my management plan. I like a 1.2-1.3 ratio. Where I hunt that is 45 does to 35 bucks for a 8.03 density number. This works for us so far. Each year I have to make adjustments to get the plan...depending on the number of fawns which dictates my harvest. For us ...we get some without brow tines...some of those bucks are great trophies, as some are very large bucks. I don't mind giving up brow tines for wide spreads and many points. Genetics can not be changed nor shaped, but it helps to work the herd by adjusting the way I mentioned earlier. Good luck...I'm ready for next year!



An agruement with a herd understandment and herd knowledge.. that’s called a management program

up kudos for bringing a gun to a knife fight. Why people think they can just change a herd genetics with soley culling bucks with no other herd acknowledgement is beyond reasoning IMO


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Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7774191 03/16/20 08:46 PM
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Umm & errr . . . , according to Al Brothers (heard it come from his mouth), do nothing with bucks until buck doe ratio is at desired level.

Re: BROW TINES [Re: Hudbone] #7774202 03/16/20 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Hudbone
Umm & errr . . . , according to Al Brothers (heard it come from his mouth), do nothing with bucks until buck doe ratio is at desired level.



Several very different culling strategy programs/ranches that have lots of success. Sometimes is better to look at what the do similar instead of different. Ratio and CC are always first, followed by ability

If you don’t know your ratio, densities and carry capacity, a genetic culling thread is worthless.


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Re: BROW TINES [Re: BOBO the Clown] #7774271 03/16/20 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by fishbait
When I am not getting the bucks that are good quality for my area, I take more does as does gives 60% genes to the fawn. If I am having pretty good quality bucks I try to save the does as much as up to 56% ....then and only take as many needed to satisfy my management plan. I like a 1.2-1.3 ratio. Where I hunt that is 45 does to 35 bucks for a 8.03 density number. This works for us so far. Each year I have to make adjustments to get the plan...depending on the number of fawns which dictates my harvest. For us ...we get some without brow tines...some of those bucks are great trophies, as some are very large bucks. I don't mind giving up brow tines for wide spreads and many points. Genetics can not be changed nor shaped, but it helps to work the herd by adjusting the way I mentioned earlier. Good luck...I'm ready for next year!



An agruement with a herd understandment and herd knowledge.. that’s called a management program

up kudos for bringing a gun to a knife fight. Why people think they can just change a herd genetics with soley culling bucks with no other herd acknowledgement is beyond reasoning IMO

Fishbait, you are obviously not your average deer hunter/manager. From what you said, you are all over it-good job. Ofcourse Bobo seems to always be right on. Gun/knife fight analogy was great! Ill just let yall speak for me on this one, and TexBuc as usual has great insight and articulates well.


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Re: BROW TINES [Re: Texas buckeye] #7774927 03/17/20 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas buckeye
Originally Posted by snake oil
Genetics, we always shot the ones without brow tines (culls).


And yet, you keep shooting deer without brow tines. Why do you think that is?

Because you are not removing the genetic trait from the gene pool you are just removing that deer/perceived culls burden from the resources.

I also believe genetic. We have shot many no brow 4's and 6's that were the same age as their piers that had "typical" brow tines and many of their younger age classes already had them also.


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Re: BROW TINES [Re: DLALLDER] #7781347 03/22/20 05:54 PM
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Related to this topic, I read of this study done by A&M-Kingsville, which concluded that culling does not work, which seems to conflict with the general consensus (including mine) and yet does not seem to have generated much reaction.

https://www.qdma.com/qdm-works-culling-doesnt/

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