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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Grosvenor]
#7743431
02/11/20 11:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Texas buckeye
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I think you may be misrepresenting that study a bit. Care to explain how I am misinterpreting the study? I am all ears...
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7743450
02/11/20 11:45 PM
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Joined: May 2017
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Smokey Bear
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I’m not swallowing it. There are naturally occurring genetically superior specimens within the populations of most any species. There are also some large thoughtfully managed low fence properties that annually out produce their neighbors and they are not accomplishing that by shooting everything good to ensure the scrubs do the bulk of the breeding. This study did nothing to say there can't be big antlered deer that come from out of nowhere. Quite the contrary, what they said is that same "specimen" (of which they had plenty of 150-170' class bucks in the study, some even bigger) is more often than not a negative breeder, meaning its offspring will not produce the same antlers. I know that is hard to fathom, but the DNA proved it, they didn't go in looking for that as an outcome, they just did DNA analysis and looked at siring and breeding value. the results are what the results are. To your point highlighted above, large well managed is the key. A good management program allows deer to age, allows for maximal nutrition and habitat, and this will allow you to see bigger and better deer. The large part is important too so you don't have neighbors shooting everything up and the deer can age. Buckeye, the first part of my professional career was working with genetics research. The same data set can be presented in different ways to prop up entirely different conclusions. The high percentage hedge is what has a proven track record of bearing fruit. It is very similar to line breeding dogs or livestock. Half of a given bucks progeny will likely be does. Over time, if there is good age structure within a herd and a balanced buck to doe ratio, the bulk of the does will be bred by the mature and more dominant bucks. If the bulk of the breeding buck population is above average, the 50% of their progeny that are does will carry those above average genetics. Time and subsequent generations is a multiplier. That is how the low fence ranches that annually pump out above average bucks continue to do so rather than banking on the scrub factor. You can read anything...
Last edited by Smokey Bear; 02/11/20 11:46 PM.
Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7743478
02/12/20 12:05 AM
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Texas buckeye
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Smokey, one of your prime assumptions is flawed. In a well balanced hunted herd of deer, the predominance of breeding is done by all bucks of all age classes. It is not dominated by only certain bucks of certain ages.
Research has bore that out as well. DNA research showed that, not observational data from the past.
When you start with a faulty assumption, that the predominance of breeding is done by older stronger bucks, then I can see your argument. But the premise behind your argument is not correct.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7743497
02/12/20 12:17 AM
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Joined: May 2017
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Smokey Bear
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Sorry buckeye you need to read again. What I typed is “the bulk” and that is correct, unless your age structure is skewed toward young bucks. Those mature deer on average will breed 2-4 does each. Genetics are dominant and recessive genes and arithmetic.
Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7743526
02/12/20 12:47 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
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BOBO the Clown
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A lot of us think that a big antlered buck will pass on his big antler genetics to his offspring, and we sometimes even will pass on shooting a nice buck to allow him to breed some more and spread his genes.
Research has shown this line of reasoning, any of the above, is pure folly.
Not only did DNA research show that a bucks genetic expression had nothing to do with the future offspring's genetic expression with regard to antler size, but many times the smaller, more average or sub-average antler sized bucks produced bigger antlered offspring overall. Extensive DNA testing was done on several well managed texas ranches (abundant habitat, available forage and supplemental feed, etc), and there was enough DNA collected over many years to determine a lineage/family tree of which bucks went on to sire which offspring. From this, they took an average antler size and calculated a breeding value for a given buck if its offspring were above the average (positive breeding value) or below the average (negative breeding value). To summarize, there was no correlation between a buck's antler size in a given year and its breeding value being positive or negative.
Other interesting points came from this research. Because so much DNA was collected, they were able to determine around 20% of twins were actually fathered by different bucks. They also debunked the myth that the biggest and strongest bucks sire the majority of the offspring, instead finding a wide range of sires among all age classes and among all antler sized deer.
There are several conclusions to be drawn from this research for a typical low fence managed property with native deer genetics: 1. Weather, timely rain and available forage play as big, if not bigger, a role in antler phenotype than any genetic contribution from the father. 2. 50% of the genetic material regarding antler phenotype comes from the doe, and we have no idea which doe are more keen to give good genetics to their fawns. 3. Manage for age structure, not antler structure in your deer herd. Age increases will bring better antlers as a generalization. 4. If you see a buck that you fancy, feel free to shoot it and don't feel bad you just messed up your genetics in the herd. Conversely, don't feel like letting a "ugly" buck walk is going to mess up your herd either.
Are there exceptions to this research, absolutely. But for 99% of the LF places out there, this research is applicable. So there is no value in DMP programs..,........ is what you are saying... or are you saying you can’t naturally gene swamp when you can’t predict genes........ What I am saying is in a LF situation you cant control genetics in any way, so control for age, mouths to feed, ratios, maximize nutrition, and your antler phenotype should get about as good as it can get, given good weather. Drought conditions will obviously dictate more to antler expression unless a good supplemental feed program is in place. Deer management programs can have a benefit, but to think we are changing genetics or, more importantly, that we can see increases in antler size on a low fence native deer herd without addressing the above is simply pissing in the wind. Cool. I agree when using that taught process. I would like to see the genes they isolate/identified that account for antler development
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7743536
02/12/20 12:56 AM
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Wilhunt
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Well just for kicks I want all my does bred to that big old heavy antlered buck and will take my chances on the resulting fawn crop being above average.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Wilhunt]
#7743542
02/12/20 01:01 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
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BOBO the Clown
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Well just for kicks I want all my does bred to that big old heavy antlered buck and will take my chances on the resulting fawn crop being above average. In DMP pen it works great, LF you are luck if he breeds two does
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Smokey Bear]
#7743545
02/12/20 01:02 AM
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Texas buckeye
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Sorry buckeye you need to read again. What I typed is “the bulk” and that is correct, unless your age structure is skewed toward young bucks. Those mature deer on average will breed 2-4 does each. Genetics are dominant and recessive genes and arithmetic. OK, call it bulk or predominance, what we are both saying is the fair share or majority...simple semantics issue that you want to take issue with... BUT, it simply isn't true. Again, DNA analysis of thousands of deer over 13+ years shows that doe are bred by a whole smattering of bucks, ranging anywhere from old to young. Plenty of 1.5 yo bucks sired fawns in this study. Again, this was a well managed property that had good age structure. What you need to remember is the breeding isn't about the buck, its about the doe. When the doe is ready, she will be receptive to any buck willing to take the place. If there are two bucks fighting and a couple younger bucks standing and watching, and the doe is receptive she might allow the young spike to come breed mrs hot doe. Yes old bucks get some fawns sired, but so do the younger ones, and the less than stellar ones, and the absolute beast and weaklings. There are simply too many doe for the older dominant bucks to breed in a given time. We all know what happens when you get a property managed down to proper CC and buck:doe ratio with appropriate age strata, the rut becomes shorter and stronger and we see more "rut" activity. This is well documented. So what makes us think a couple of bucks in a given acreage can breed all the does in that acreage? Simply too much space to cover and not enough time in a day. If the average tending time is 12-36 hours, and the estrous cycle is 24 hrs or less, there simply is no way the couple dominant bucks can do it. Think about that for a second. The doe will breed with whoever is around. The big boys will follow the first ones to cycle and the younger or less dominant boys will get all the left overs. DNA analysis shows this model is the true model, at least for a well managed south texas LF ranch.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#7743551
02/12/20 01:05 AM
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Texas buckeye
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Well just for kicks I want all my does bred to that big old heavy antlered buck and will take my chances on the resulting fawn crop being above average. In DMP pen it works great, LF you are luck if he breeds two does Research has also shown there are prolific breeders and slow and steady breeders. On average, over the life of a LF native texas buck, it will sire around 9 bucks, give or take a few. For some bucks, this comes in a flurry of a bunch for a couple years and then it burns out and can't continue. For some bucks this is slow and steady over many years. We all hope that great buck is out there breeding and passing on all that good genetics. Way too many variables to even worry about it.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Smokey Bear]
#7743556
02/12/20 01:14 AM
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Texas buckeye
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Sorry buckeye you need to read again. What I typed is “the bulk” and that is correct, unless your age structure is skewed toward young bucks. Those mature deer on average will breed 2-4 does each. Genetics are dominant and recessive genes and arithmetic. For simple dominant and recessive genes yes, but we have nary an idea of what causes one buck to have exceptional antler growth and another to have sub-par. I can guarantee it isn't simply dominant and recessive, because we would be able to see a lot more big bucks if that were the case. What you are trying to equate though is genotype and phenotype. And it doesn't fly in the buck antler situation. Even a buck with great genotype will express poor antlers if injured, sick, drought, or other significant stress. A great buck that runs all season and gets really rutted down is going to have less stellar antlers than one that doesn't have to run all season. Likewise a buck fawn born late in the season will possibly never catch up to its age cohort even if he has superior genetics, simply due to biology, weather stress, and season stress. Those poor bucks will always be catching up to early drop buck fawns. So trying to be simple and say its all about dominant and recessive and arithmetic works in the plant world quite well. In the animal world, not so much. Not even getting into mosaicism, co-dominance, mutations, and such other simple genetic concepts.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7743566
02/12/20 01:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,663
Txhunter65
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You lost me when you typed "TA&M Kingsville".
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7743594
02/12/20 01:52 AM
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JCB
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Likewise a buck fawn born late in the season will possibly never catch up to its age cohort even if he has superior genetics, simply due to biology, weather stress, and season stress. Those poor bucks will always be catching up to early drop buck fawns.
Actually I think it was Dr. Krolls study showed that by age 4 a early born fawn and a late born fawn had almost no difference in the size of their head gear. His study was more focused on if you could predict a deers potential based on his first set of antlers though. Basically the answer was no because there were way to many variables that factored into a deers first rack and one of the biggest was when the deer was born. His study was free range deer also.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: JCB]
#7743603
02/12/20 02:05 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,965
Texas buckeye
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Likewise a buck fawn born late in the season will possibly never catch up to its age cohort even if he has superior genetics, simply due to biology, weather stress, and season stress. Those poor bucks will always be catching up to early drop buck fawns.
Actually I think it was Dr. Krolls study showed that by age 4 a early born fawn and a late born fawn had almost no difference in the size of their head gear. His study was more focused on if you could predict a deers potential based on his first set of antlers though. Basically the answer was no because there were way to many variables that factored into a deers first rack and one of the biggest was when the deer was born. His study was free range deer also. I'll give you that. I think the point is that it is near impossible to determine a bucks genetic potential until it is old. Even then, external factors play a significant role in that genetic expression. So if we say a buck born late doesn't catch up until 4, then in those first several years how many "inferior" bucks were killed due to sub-par antlers when the buck "might" have had superior genetics but just unable to express? Rhetorical question. Just makes the case of my OP all the more. Manage for age, numbers, ratios. Don't manage for antler size or form until age structure is well established and then you can manage within a certain age class to reduce numbers, but don't think it will adjust anything genetically in the herd.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Txhunter65]
#7743634
02/12/20 02:44 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
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BOBO the Clown
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You lost me when you typed "TA&M Kingsville". They actually have one of the top wildlife programs in the country. A&M Kingsville was actually on of the first hard core programs for wildlife management, even over I think Masters program
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7743635
02/12/20 02:46 AM
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,318
freerange
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"Just makes the case of my OP all the more. Manage for age, numbers, ratios. Don't manage for antler size or form until age structure is well established and then you can manage within a certain age class to reduce numbers, but don't think it will adjust anything genetically in the herd." ^^^^^Texas Buckeye said the above(my first time to copy/paste) and I think it expresses my opinion the simplest. Im not willing to take enough time to express everything I think about this and Texas Buckeye is doing such a GREAT job then I would only mess it up. I was present when Draeger first presented this study at the TWA Annual Convention. I have since read the summary of it by QDMA and then it was summarized again in a monthly publication of TWA. I have no way to verify the accuracy of the study in every other situation that someone may apply it, but Texas Buckeye is doing an excellent job of representing the study as I understand it. You will definitely get a lot of push back on this forum on this topic so I hope you hold your ground.
Last edited by freerange; 02/12/20 02:47 AM.
At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7743637
02/12/20 02:47 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
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BOBO the Clown
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Well just for kicks I want all my does bred to that big old heavy antlered buck and will take my chances on the resulting fawn crop being above average. In DMP pen it works great, LF you are luck if he breeds two does Research has also shown there are prolific breeders and slow and steady breeders. On average, over the life of a LF native texas buck, it will sire around 9 bucks, give or take a few. For some bucks, this comes in a flurry of a bunch for a couple years and then it burns out and can't continue. For some bucks this is slow and steady over many years. We all hope that great buck is out there breeding and passing on all that good genetics. Way too many variables to even worry about it. 9 bucks is nothing in a life time, once you account for natural mortality it becomes even less significant
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#7743829
02/12/20 01:49 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,481
redchevy
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Well just for kicks I want all my does bred to that big old heavy antlered buck and will take my chances on the resulting fawn crop being above average. In DMP pen it works great, LF you are luck if he breeds two does Never done DMP pens but without documentation of what does were bred and tagging the fawns how is the success measured?
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7743837
02/12/20 01:58 PM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,067
titan2232
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We had two very pronounced set of genetics on our place before the anthrax hit. Wide main frame 10-12's with no kickers and tall and heavy with split brows, G2's, and G3's. There were few and far between of anything else and absolutely zero spikes to be seen. Low fence deer that stayed on our property or an adjacent property that was not allowed to be hunted. So long story short I 100% believe our breeder bucks passed on their genetics well.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7743849
02/12/20 02:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,638
Pitchfork Predator
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Not a buyer, I call I find it surprising that you so easily dismiss 50% effect by known bucks in the herd even if you throw out the other 50 the doe brings to the equation........
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: titan2232]
#7743854
02/12/20 02:19 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Texas buckeye
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We had two very pronounced set of genetics on our place before the anthrax hit. Wide main frame 10-12's with no kickers and tall and heavy with split brows, G2's, and G3's. There were few and far between of anything else and absolutely zero spikes to be seen. Low fence deer that stayed on our property or an adjacent property that was not allowed to be hunted. So long story short I 100% believe our breeder bucks passed on their genetics well. So this post just bites at me from a biological standpoint. Mainly because most bucks that are fawned in an area go through a process called dispersal where around age 1.5-2.5 they leave, and don’t come back. This has been verified across many states through many studies. It just happens. Who stays? Mainly the doe. A few bucks will stay, but the buck dispersal range is anywhere from 1-10 miles, rarely even more. So unless your place is ginormous or HF, the more likely scenario is your doe passed on that trait. Or your neighbors bucks that hit your doe during the rut. Just one more example of why this study doesn’t work with a HF population and whyHF genetics can be more “controlled” even without explicit breeder pens. The deer don’t follow normal behaviors and dispersal goes to nothing and you don’t have to worry about your neighbors “infecting” their bad genetics into “your” herd.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7743942
02/12/20 03:42 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
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Hudbone
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"One of their biggest bucks was sired by a scrawny 120" mature buck." Doe likely had a big influence here. Imagine how much bigger that offspring would have been if that same doe had been covered by a robust, mature 20 inch ten pointer.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Pitchfork Predator]
#7743946
02/12/20 03:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,965
Texas buckeye
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Not a buyer, I call I find it surprising that you so easily dismiss 50% effect by known bucks in the herd even if you throw out the other 50 the doe brings to the equation........ I am not really sure who this is addressed to, the original study or some comments, but I will address the issue of dismissing the 50% from the known bucks you brought up... That is part of what this study looked at, was the known 50% from the bucks. What wasn't known was the doe contribution, but thousands of bucks were netted, measured, sampled and released. over 13 years. Huge data set that would be near impossible to re-create anywhere due to time and money involved. What the study found was the known 50% of buck genes had no correlation between its phenotypical antler expression and that of its offspring. No correlation. So it isn't that we dismiss the known 50% buck genotype, its that the data dismisses it. There was no way to tell which buck would give off a good antlered offspring vs a bad antlered offspring vs an average antlered offspring. Within the data there were bucks that did sire consistently good offspring, absolutely. Interestingly, some of these bucks that consistently produced good antlered bucks offspring were themselves below or right at average antler size for their age cohort. But to say that any large antlered buck would consistently sire good antlered offspring was absolutely NOT in the data. So the idea of "breeding bucks" in the LF native deer population was essentially debunked. Yes there were exceptions, but there was no way to know which deer would be exceptions and external factors such as weather and injury play a bigger role in all this than simply the bucks antler size in a given year. Again, this dataset was a LF native WT deer population in a well managed large ranch. For a small property owner this takes on even more importance when you factor in deer dispersal and buck rut range. But as soon as you add a HF, the study loses it power quickly. Take away dispersal and buck rut range, and the assumptions can be whittled down pretty quickly.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7743951
02/12/20 03:47 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,166
westtexaswatkins
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It's the internet. For every study out there there is another contradicting the research results. To each his own. Just do what works for you.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: Hudbone]
#7743956
02/12/20 03:52 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Texas buckeye
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"One of their biggest bucks was sired by a scrawny 120" mature buck." Doe likely had a big influence here. Imagine how much bigger that offspring would have been if that same doe had been covered by a robust, mature 20 inch ten pointer. For sure, but then you get away from the LF nature of the study and start talking breeding pens...we all know breeding pens work and can create some absolute monster deer. We see them on nearly every HF game ranch for a reason. BUT, the conditions of the study were to mimic LF native deer herd. In that herd, they found almost all the bucks did some breeding, not just the big strong massive deer. That presumption (only the biggest and strongest deer breed nearly all the doe) is just false and it is probably the reason some folks have issue with this study. When you start with a faulty assumption about actual deer behavior, you will make a faulty conclusion. Real deer behavior is real deer behavior. As soon as we manipulate a doe breeding with a mature 20 pointer, then we are not allowing deer behavior to happen and it is man made behavior. I am sure you understand my point here. And again, you are making the point for the study by what you said...the doe had a big influence here. Now, please tell me, how do we identify which doe are the ones that will create big influences? If you can do that in a LF native deer population, you have a blank check written for ya.
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Re: Breeding value of Bucks
[Re: westtexaswatkins]
#7743958
02/12/20 03:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,965
Texas buckeye
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It's the internet. For every study out there there is another contradicting the research results. To each his own. Just do what works for you. I gave you info on the study I was referencing, please give your studies and I will look at those and compare. Please don't go the lazy route and say I can look them up...I made a claim and offered a huge study to back it up. Please do the same.
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