Who is they and where a did all this info come from?

Any time I read a sentence like your last one I’m reminded that 87% of percentages on the interweb are made up.

A lot of us think that a big antlered buck will pass on his big antler genetics to his offspring, and we sometimes even will pass on shooting a nice buck to allow him to breed some more and spread his genes.

Research has shown this line of reasoning, any of the above, is pure folly.

Not only did DNA research show that a bucks genetic expression had nothing to do with the future offspring's genetic expression with regard to antler size, but many times the smaller, more average or sub-average antler sized bucks produced bigger antlered offspring overall. Extensive DNA testing was done on several well managed texas ranches (abundant habitat, available forage and supplemental feed, etc), and there was enough DNA collected over many years to determine a lineage/family tree of which bucks went on to sire which offspring. From this, they took an average antler size and calculated a breeding value for a given buck if its offspring were above the average (positive breeding value) or below the average (negative breeding value). To summarize, there was no correlation between a buck's antler size in a given year and its breeding value being positive or negative.

Other interesting points came from this research. Because so much DNA was collected, they were able to determine around 20% of twins were actually fathered by different bucks. They also debunked the myth that the biggest and strongest bucks sire the majority of the offspring, instead finding a wide range of sires among all age classes and among all antler sized deer.

There are several conclusions to be drawn from this research for a typical low fence managed property with native deer genetics:
1. Weather, timely rain and available forage play as big, if not bigger, a role in antler phenotype than any genetic contribution from the father.
2. 50% of the genetic material regarding antler phenotype comes from the doe, and we have no idea which doe are more keen to give good genetics to their fawns.
3. Manage for age structure, not antler structure in your deer herd. Age increases will bring better antlers as a generalization.
4. If you see a buck that you fancy, feel free to shoot it and don't feel bad you just messed up your genetics in the herd. Conversely, don't feel like letting a "ugly" buck walk is going to mess up your herd either.


Are there exceptions to this research, absolutely. But for 99% of the LF places out there, this research is applicable.

I think a lot of those findings go against findings that we have already proven to work. A high fence genetically superior buck is no different than a free range genetically superior buck. Somewhere in those high fence deers genetic lineage they were once free range. A genetic blood line never starts from scratch unless God creates it. A genetic blood line can be improved by selective breeding which we see working like magic on deer farms. To think that promoting the best free range genetics cant produce similar positive results is silly. There are many free range ranches here in Texas that have proof.

Think of it like this......if a 7' man has a baby with a 6' woman do you think the baby will be a midget?? I rest my case.

A high fence genetically superior buck is no different than a free range genetically superior buck.

So there is no value in DMP programs..,........ is what you are saying... or are you saying you can’t naturally gene swamp when you can’t predict genes........

I think it is pure BS. So if I should get rid of my best Ibex Billy and breed my Nannies to the worst looking Ibex I can find the kids will turn out to be the best I have ever had. Again BS.

My response to that is there are no genetically superior free range bucks. There are superior expressed traits, but each and every one of them in a LF free range environment carries as much crap genetics as they do good. Each and every one of them is a product of the melting pot that made them.

I think a lot of those findings go against findings that we have already proven to work. A high fence genetically superior buck is no different than a free range genetically superior buck. Somewhere in those high fence deers genetic lineage they were once free range. A genetic blood line never starts from scratch unless God creates it. A genetic blood line can be improved by selective breeding which we see working like magic on deer farms. To think that promoting the best free range genetics cant produce similar positive results is silly. There are many free range ranches here in Texas that have proof.

Think of it like this......if a 7' man has a baby with a 6' woman do you think the baby will be a midget?? I rest my case.

don, you are talking about something completely different than this study. Low fence free range native WT deer are not the same as a penned Ibex with introduced genetics. Best I can find is that Ibex aren't even native to Texas, so anything Ibex related is not going to be applicable to this study.

I’m not swallowing it. There are naturally occurring genetically superior specimens within the populations of most any species. There are also some large thoughtfully managed low fence properties that annually out produce their neighbors and they are not accomplishing that by shooting everything good to ensure the scrubs do the bulk of the breeding.

What you are saying lacks all common sense. Just because Ibex are not native to Texas also does not make any difference, we are talking breeding animals to get the best you can from the breed. HF-LF or no fence Keep breeding midgets to midgets give you midgets. Breeding midgets to a giant will eventually get you a non midget. No offence to midgets were meant by any of my comments. See, I'm PC.

I never said you cant alter genetics with a breeding pen and known genetics, and this study didn't either. But that's the argument you are making. Taking a known tall person and breeding them with a known tall person is nothing more than a breeding pen.

Your argument would have held more water if you would have said "whats the odds of taking a random male and a random female and making a midget?"

But even then I am not sure how that relates to the study. You are talking oranges and the study is talking apples.

Every deer on earth is the product of the melting pot that made them.....even breeder bucks on deer farms. You cant erase thousands of years of free range genetics in a Whitetails DNA by fencing a few of them in 30 years ago. You can however promote the "superior expressed traits" by letting that deer breed. Doesn't matter if that deer breeds behind a fence or not. Sure you can control what Doe he breeds in a breeding pen and the end result will almost always be better than what he would produce when bred to a free range Doe. Its silly to think that he is no more likely to produce superior off spring than a scrub buck that breeds the same Doe though simply because its a free range environment.

Promoting superior genetics on free range ranches has already proven to work. I don't even see how anyone can argue that.

OK let me reword that then:

Lets take a 160" 5 year old 10 point and breed him to some random free range Doe.
Lets take a 95" 5 year old 8 point and breed him to that same random free range Doe.

Which one do you think will MOST LIKELY produce the better offspring? According to the study above its 50/50 either way and I aint buying it one bit.

I think you may be misrepresenting that study a bit.

This study did nothing to say there can't be big antlered deer that come from out of nowhere. Quite the contrary, what they said is that same "specimen" (of which they had plenty of 150-170' class bucks in the study, some even bigger) is more often than not a negative breeder, meaning its offspring will not produce the same antlers.

I know that is hard to fathom, but the DNA proved it, they didn't go in looking for that as an outcome, they just did DNA analysis and looked at siring and breeding value. the results are what the results are.



To your point highlighted above, large well managed is the key. A good management program allows deer to age, allows for maximal nutrition and habitat, and this will allow you to see bigger and better deer. The large part is important too so you don't have neighbors shooting everything up and the deer can age.

What I am saying is in a LF situation you cant control genetics in any way, so control for age, mouths to feed, ratios, maximize nutrition, and your antler phenotype should get about as good as it can get, given good weather. Drought conditions will obviously dictate more to antler expression unless a good supplemental feed program is in place.

Deer management programs can have a benefit, but to think we are changing genetics or, more importantly, that we can see increases in antler size on a low fence native deer herd without addressing the above is simply pissing in the wind.

Well just for kicks I want all my does bred to that big old heavy antlered buck and will take my chances on the resulting fawn crop being above average.

Sorry buckeye you need to read again. What I typed is “the bulk” and that is correct, unless your age structure is skewed toward young bucks. Those mature deer on average will breed 2-4 does each. Genetics are dominant and recessive genes and arithmetic.

In DMP pen it works great, LF you are luck if he breeds two does

Sorry buckeye you need to read again. What I typed is “the bulk” and that is correct, unless your age structure is skewed toward young bucks. Those mature deer on average will breed 2-4 does each. Genetics are dominant and recessive genes and arithmetic.

Likewise a buck fawn born late in the season will possibly never catch up to its age cohort even if he has superior genetics, simply due to biology, weather stress, and season stress. Those poor bucks will always be catching up to early drop buck fawns.

Actually I think it was Dr. Krolls study showed that by age 4 a early born fawn and a late born fawn had almost no difference in the size of their head gear. His study was more focused on if you could predict a deers potential based on his first set of antlers though. Basically the answer was no because there were way to many variables that factored into a deers first rack and one of the biggest was when the deer was born. His study was free range deer also.

You lost me when you typed "TA&M Kingsville".

Research has also shown there are prolific breeders and slow and steady breeders. On average, over the life of a LF native texas buck, it will sire around 9 bucks, give or take a few. For some bucks, this comes in a flurry of a bunch for a couple years and then it burns out and can't continue. For some bucks this is slow and steady over many years.

We all hope that great buck is out there breeding and passing on all that good genetics. Way too many variables to even worry about it.

In DMP pen it works great, LF you are luck if he breeds two does

We had two very pronounced set of genetics on our place before the anthrax hit. Wide main frame 10-12's with no kickers and tall and heavy with split brows, G2's, and G3's.

There were few and far between of anything else and absolutely zero spikes to be seen.

Low fence deer that stayed on our property or an adjacent property that was not allowed to be hunted. So long story short I 100% believe our breeder bucks passed on their genetics well.

Not a buyer, I call I find it surprising that you so easily dismiss 50% effect by known bucks in the herd even if you throw out the other 50 the doe brings to the equation........

"One of their biggest bucks was sired by a scrawny 120" mature buck." Doe likely had a big influence here. Imagine how much bigger that offspring would have been if that same doe had been covered by a robust, mature 20 inch ten pointer.

It's the internet. For every study out there there is another contradicting the research results. To each his own. Just do what works for you.

So this post just bites at me from a biological standpoint. Mainly because most bucks that are fawned in an area go through a process called dispersal where around age 1.5-2.5 they leave, and don’t come back. This has been verified across many states through many studies. It just happens.

Who stays? Mainly the doe. A few bucks will stay, but the buck dispersal range is anywhere from 1-10 miles, rarely even more. So unless your place is ginormous or HF, the more likely scenario is your doe passed on that trait. Or your neighbors bucks that hit your doe during the rut.

Just one more example of why this study doesn’t work with a HF population and whyHF genetics can be more “controlled” even without explicit breeder pens. The deer don’t follow normal behaviors and dispersal goes to nothing and you don’t have to worry about your neighbors “infecting” their bad genetics into “your” herd.

Base on the info you provide the flaw I see is making assumptions for the buck sired before it reaches maturity in an ideal environment population and forage being the primary driver to fully express the genetic potential of the sired buck.

"For sure, but then you get away from the LF nature of the study and start talking breeding pens...we all know breeding pens work and can create some absolute monster deer. We see them on nearly every HF game ranch for a reason." This is definitely an unwarranted assertion. Nowhere did I get away from LF and into breeding pens. Our place is technically low fence and has no (zero) breeding pens.

"BUT, the conditions of the study were to mimic LF native deer herd. In that herd, they found almost all the bucks did some breeding, not just the big strong massive deer. That presumption (only the biggest and strongest deer breed nearly all the doe) is just false and it is probably the reason some folks have issue with this study. When you start with a faulty assumption about actual deer behavior, you will make a faulty conclusion. Real deer behavior is real deer behavior. As soon as we manipulate a doe breeding with a mature 20 pointer, then we are not allowing deer behavior to happen and it is man made behavior. I am sure you understand my point here." Of course all male deer attempt and are successful at breeding does - no kidding. Too many does come in estrus for 24 hours or so and at the same time. The bigger bucks just cannot breed them all. That is exactly why you cull out the inferior herd members so they do not pass along their undesired genetics. When a doe gets in heat, she will get covered by whichever buck is closest to her - that is what happens in nature. They do not look for the biggest rack of horns or best body, they look for who is available. If one is not available, another's genes get passed on. Who is available is determined by proximity, strength and those bucks hunters allow to survive.

"And again, you are making the point for the study by what you said...the doe had a big influence here. Now, please tell me, how do we identify which doe are the ones that will create big influences? If you can do that in a LF native deer population, you have a blank check written for ya." Exactly, I could not have said it any better. Without ear tags (and we don't have any) you can only control the buck to doe ratio. Keep your numbers in line. I think it was Al Brothers who said that is the 1st step of any management process.

you might not be able to completely decide who breeds who, but you can help to decide who does not breed who.

you might not be able to completely decide who breeds who, but you can help to decide who does not breed who.

Generally our younger bucks carried no obvious trait to distinguish them on a yearly basis so yes they may leave, but we have tracked returning mature deer on our place from the day we started. Even collected pictures from the previous group and not only do we see the same bucks every year, but they're often seen in only certain portions of our ranch or the "sanctuary" next to us.

We acquire pretty sold data for nearly 50K acres around us and these few ranches have identical genetics as us and this has been the case for the better part of 20 years.

My million dollar question: Why do we suddenly have spikes or inferior younger bucks showing up when this has never been the case on our place or anyplace close to us? Anthrax has changed things that I do not understand