Discussion Topic:

It seems like there is more pressure on the birds and causing them to change habits. Not just here in N TX, but reading waterfowl surveys for KS, MO, IL, AR, LA and hearing/reading reports for CO, OK, and TX. All of this info has the same overall theme; Too much Pressure. Birds spreading out or congregating on refuges, using different habitat, going nocturnal to feed, etc...

Anyone else seeing/hearing the same?

I always hear that we should push season back, but that won't do anything in reality except hurt breeding success. Studies have been done that show pair bonding starts as early as December and really starts to flourish in January. These studies have also shown that once pair bonding has occurred, if for some reason, a mate is lost that it is harder to find another mate and be successful in breeding. Which all of that hurts the overall population, obviously. That's why the Federal Frameworks won't allow hunting past end of January. There are some that believe we are hunting too late, from a pair bonding/breeding success rate, as it is now.

What's y'alls thoughts to reduce pressure on the birds, if you believe there is too much pressure?



Here's some ideas:

-Shorten overall season days to 30/45 days. Have 2 splits that last 12 days each, same split structure as we used to have in North Zone and currently have in South Zone, except to have 2 in lieu of 1 split.
-Reduce limit to 3/4 birds in conjunction with shorter season
-Allow non-huntable refuges to be hunted. On a rotation basis, possibly. Don't think it's a good idea to allow open hunting on the refuges as they need a 'safe space', but rotate and allow them to be hunted 1-2 days/week.


I really believe that shorter season, reduced bag limit, and multiple splits would enhance the overall quality of hunting. Personally, I would take that over what we've been experiencing. My log books and observations are showing that duck hunting has been on the decline for the last 8yrs or so. We've had all sorts of different weather in that time span, so while weather is a factor I don't believe it to be the 'end all be all'. The biggest change I've seen is more pressure on the birds. Shorter seasons with multiple splits would allow the birds to be more rested, less pressure on them, and quality of hunting would improve.

What do y'all think?

This is far and away the best year duck hunting I have had here in North Texas. While I have had better days hunting in years past, this year the birds were more consistent and allowed for hunting earlier in the season when my water usually doesn't hold birds. With that being said I try to rotate and typically won't hunt the same spot more than once a week.

Leonardo, I'm not basing this on just my hunting this year. It is a trend I have been seeing for the last 8yrs or so and reading/talking to people throughout the Central and MS flyways. This year my birds per man average is higher than its been in 5yrs....have hunted less this year, but have had some good hunts. Can't really base the above on 1 season, though.

I would bet you are hunting ponds around N TX area? This year the pond hunting has been better than the last few years. I believe that's due to the reservoirs not having the food and lots of pressure. My deer lease tanks have been good for limits of gadwall/wigeon all year as well and earlier than normal.

Just some thoughts and things to ponder on...

I think you make some good points.

I would be okay with a 40 day/4 duck season, and here's why.
In that state of waterfowl discussion they had, the biologist paraphrased a study that was done. People are happy with 1 duck, they're happier with 2, and even happier with 3. Once they get to 4 ducks, they're pretty elated, but after that, the happiness doesn't go up much. Also, a lot of hunters hunt for limits these days instead of the memories, bonding, etc. So if you drop the limit to 4, you're going to have a lot more happier people since it's an easier goal to obtain. And if it is 4 birds instead of 6, a lot of people will probably be more selective with what they shoot.

Pressure has definitely changed birds. If you dont think so, go to your public hunting spots a week after season closes and see what happens.

Mud motors have been a cause to that pressure change too when you're talking about hunting flooded timber. Those surface drive motors are loud, and would you want something like that constantly buzzing through your bedroom. If you're out and about, listen to the difference of an outboard compared to a surface drive. An outboard comes in and fades out. A surface drive can be heard from a lot farther away, and the fact that every tom, dick, and harry have one, well it adds up.

We also just had the post down below about scouting. The correct way is to drive, listen, sneak in. A lot of people are just going to roar through everything, jump birds, and say they found them. Those birds are now up, and they've been jumped 3 times already, how many times are they going to stay there before they say screw this and move somewhere else.

I think doing a draw type hunt on the refuges would work too. You only allow it for 2 weekends and only a certain amount can hunt. Birds need safe places to go to, but pushing a few around here and there isn't a bad idea IMO.

Technology has made it easier for dumber people to get to more ducks. Scouting is easier, and boats can get you anywhere now. Other than that, hunters are hunting and ducks are surviving, not much has changed in a long time I don’t think

Didn’t they just add one of the split weeks onto the front of the season? So, we start a week later but only have a one week split at the end of November?

I think that works fine, and is kind of a six of one, half dozen of the other, when compared to a two week split in the middle in the context of helping bird numbers.

For us old timers numbers are up. These are the good old days. Designating waterfowl resting areas in prime habitat off limits to hunting and stopping shooting hours at noon are tried and true measures to help keep birds in areas with the habitat to sustain them. The biggest thing is putting money into habitat improvement in your region rather than bitching about those who improve habitat within their regions.

In my area, Rock Island TX, the pressure has increased every year. I think this is a major reason for the lack of birds the last two years. We have plenty of birds on opening days, but afterwards, they dwindle. In our area many have come nocturnal feeding at night and going, I think, to many of the gravel pits in our area to roost during the day. This is because of the pressure. We are also located adjacent to a duck club who have so many members I think they get frustrated and sky blast. We are talking about hundreds of shots per hunting day. Also, when I was younger there were rest areas for the birds. Some of the outfitters would flood some os their rice or fallow fields and designate them as refuges. Now it seems, on our prairie, every body of water is hunted. Lack of birds is also attributed to changing farming practices and a weaker migration. Jut my thoughts.

You are correct. I didn't intend for my sole experience to negate your position or research. Just to show how one persons experience may lead to another persons better experience in a different manner. Doesn't mean anything needs to be done.

some of my thoughts

Don't let guides shoot ducks while guiding clients. Did you know its illegal for a guide to keep fish/a limit of fish in Texas while guiding clients. Only the clients can keep fish. Why should ducks/waterfowl be any different. The purpose of the guide is to put the clients on birds not for them to become a paid hunter.

I want to see the industry do a better job of promoting ethics and values. Studies show that young hens are most susceptible to spinning wing decoys. Thats fine. There are two options, outlaw spinning wing decoys or limit there use. Or what i think the better option is to promote and encourage hunters to take drakes. You don't have to shoot everything just to make a pile. its ok to go home a few ducks less than to shoot some hens just to "limit". you don't go shoot a young doe when your looking to fill the freezer. Hate to say it but a lot of duck hunters don't even eat the ducks they harvest. so other than ego does it really matter if you don't limit.

I want to see the surface drive industry start working on making their units quieter.

i'm open for opening up refuges for 3-5 hunting weekends a season for a select number of hunters. make it a draw system, $10 a hunter, the lucky hunters picked get to go hunt.

[quote=2flyfish4

I want to see the surface drive industry start working on making their units quieter.

[/quote]

I think that's possible too, look what Honda did with generators.
And it's not even the exhaust really, those motors are just loud to begin with.

Naaa, just global warming.

In the last 30 years, most Texas outfitters have either quit or moved north to oklahoma, Missouri and kansas.
Oklahoma and kansas is where the birds are now. They have liberal limits, plenty of public, more food, better weather and lots of days to hunt. Them 3 states are the ones with the most birds shot. Period.

yep, and i still stand by what i said in that post. I use to own a 23hp long tail. didn't have the speed as the SD but was just as loud. I still think the manufactures could do us duck hunters a favor by trying to make their SD quieter. several WMA's have put hp limitations in place to cut out the SD and airboat crowd. I think arkansas tried doing something as well a few years ago but theirs was based on decibel rating.

I think we can be our own worst enemy at times

Ain't nobody making surface drives quieter. The motors they buy are used for mowers mud motors are a fraction a very small fraction of the amount of motors sold.

It's not as much the noise that I feel like is a problem.

Let's go back 20 years. Me and my best bud would go out in his 12 foot flat bottom with a 25 Yamaha. We'd see a couple hundred birds at the back of a grass flat. The next morning we'd be up stupid Early paddling wading pushing and pulling that boat across a big grass flat through stumps mud etc.


Today 20 year old me runs through said grass flat pushing up those birds. They don't ever get relaxed and they won't be there tomorrow. Sound doesn't matter if you're pushing birds so you can see how many are back there.

Leonardo,

Didn’t take it that way at all.

Was just saying this year, for me, as well has been better hunts than the last couple years. I’m not basing my original post on this year alone though.

Every year someone, somewhere is having a great season while someone somewhere else is having a poor season. I’m just seeing and hearing an overall trend.

Thanks for sharing your insight!

Noise isn’t the problem. For the ducks, anyways.

Except I am hearing the same thing from OK and KS this year.

Lots of complaining about bird numbers and poor hunts from KS south. Lots of guys I talk to up there say the same thing I am saying.

I’m not looking at the pic whore guides that are piling up 3-4 groups worth of birds to post a 5 man limit. I know for a fact one of the more popular guides, at least see them recommended often. does this. Hunted with them last year. After each hunt the guides would take all the birds from the 20+ hunters and pic out the best 5-6 man limit and post to FB. Have heard several others doing this too.


Not as many pics from those guys this year either.

2flyfish4,

You make some great points that I agree with. Guides shouldn’t be able to take a limit. Mud motors need to be quieter too.

I run a mud motor and will be going to a much quieter exhaust as soon as I can afford it.

8-10yrs ago it wasn’t a problem as there weren’t many mud boats running around. Now everyone has one and jumps up birds constantly.

I’m going to scout in the morning and will be using the binoculars as much as possible so as not to disturb the birds.

IMO, there are a ton of groceries just below the freeze line on refuges north of us. Thus someone's previous post about Guides shutting down and moving north.

I did make it to the Pan Handle first weekend of Dec and was amazed of the birds I saw. Probably because of the hard freezes up north in October. Buddy's wife was in Montana. The day after she left they had 3 foot of snow cover up that state.

I believe we don't focus enough on the factory (breeding grounds in Canada) thus you see a reduction on Pintails for example.

And this -

And this if you're open to looking at data -



The bottom line is ducks that migrate south are few and not like it used to be. The end result is the few we get are spread out. If you're lucky enough, you tank are in that flight path, thus you've had a great season.

If the spot you hunt isn't there, you SOTL.

As for pressure, the lake I typically hunt has not had any real pressure. For example, in 2008, you'd find trucks parked on the side of the road. No spots in the parking lot.

Today, 2019 - 2020, if you have 4 or 5 trucks there, you have the max showing up that day. Groceries are plentiful, except on Lake Granger, yet there are no birds.

Why?

We don't get all the birds migrating.

I'm all for limits reduced to 3 and no more shooting after 12pm.

Why shouldn't someone who has a license and a federal stamp not be able to shoot ducks? That's a ridiculous statement.

Do you say the same for fishing guides? It’s already that way for them.

Yes I do say The same for them. Why shouldn't someone be able to shoot or catch their daily limit.

Yep I figured that wouldnt be a popular opinion of mine. Some of the reasons I feel this way. 1. You pay a guide to put you on birds not for them to be a paid hunter. A fishing guide is licensed why cant he take a limit of fish on guided trips? If the law applies to fishing I think it should apply to waterfowl and all game animals/fish. 2. It will cut down on all the fly by night social media guides that are "guiding" only to help fund their new surface drives. I've always thought guiding needed to be better regulated in texas, guides need to go through background checks, CPR and basic first aid training, and limit licensed guides per body of water or county depending on what that said area can handle harvest wise. Guides/outfitters should report to the state every year their clients harvest. Think of the data that would provide. Guide x who is the only licensed guide on x lake has years of data and for some reason it is showing a decline in duck harvest. Isnt it easier to regulate or come to a conclusion of causes if you have hard data like that. This is common practice in other states when it come to fish and game. In texas all you have to do is go buy a guide license from Walmart and start a facebook page and now your a guide.

What someone pays their guide to do ie "pay your guide to put you on birds" is between the customer and the guide not the state or federal government and the guide.

That's coming from a guy that doesn't like guides. I sure wouldn't pay a guide to drag me around on public. But pretending stopping a guide from shooting birds will make a difference in the quality of duck hunting... Come on.

I agree and see what your saying.

There are alot of great guides who give back through du and delta chapters, 4h, chamber of commerce and their local communities.

There are also alot of guides who do it just to fund their sd rigs, they move in from out of state to hotspots like arkansas only during duck season to guide hunters and make money bc that is all it's about to them. Maybe if those guides cant shoot birds it would cut back on the guides who only take.

Again, why the state says fishing guides cant do it, but hunting guides can I'm an not sure. But I do think it should be uniform. Will it make that much difference in the quality of hunting. Maybe, maybe not

The best quote that says it all was someone on the Migratory Birds forum."I'm in Idaho and still shooting Blue Wing teal" (I paraphrase)

I stated taking detailed species counts on our little club of potshooters about 4 years ago...360, 320, 410 total ducks last three years (last year was crazy with 150 BWT) (NOTE: these stats do not include teal season). This year as of today we have 95 ducks with only 9 BWT.

My opinion this year for our lease is simple. Biggest issue was the quote above. No sustained cold weather north of us forced enough ducks down here to south texas. Why come south when it's warm, not iced over at all and food is available? Great Lakes are only 10% ice covered right now (google it), I saw a quote that in March last year it was 90% ice overed. We had only one freezing day (day meaning some hours overnight) the whole year and that was in November down here.

Our 2nd biggest issue on our lease was lack of food as they did not plant rice like last year, but without ducks this impacted us less IMHO...and good news is they are getting ready to plant rice all around our lease for next year.

I don't think human hunting pressure impacted our numbers much at all. Look at the yearly hatching reports. Good hunting.

Not so fast there Sir! Your statement isn't correct. To take folks on public waters for any compensation one must go through a series of training to get a Captain's license. During that school they undergo training for CPR, First aid, background checks..... It isn't an easy license to obtain. Then they are subject to drug testing at the whim of the coastguard. To get a Captain's license isn't just a bullsmack ordeal. So far as more state regulation, why? Why would you ask the state to get more involved in any of our private lives. Have a problem with a boat title and go ask TPWD for help. That is about as smart as asking a fox to take care of your chickens. So far as a guide not being allowed to take his limit, I don't agree with that at all. Who are you, who is the gov, who is anyone to tell another man he can't have the same rights as anyone else. Let me spin it. What if it was my buddy who got effed up in the sandbox. About all he can do socially is hunt and fish. He relies on what the money and the game he brings home to support his family. You really wish to tell a man that gave so much that he can't shoot a limit just like the rest of the men sitting next to him. I think not Honcho!

As to the guides hunting.. Fellows, if the guides didn't shoot on certain trips where his clients can't shoot they would not get any birds. They help with cripples. Would you rather the clients bang away crippling birds or have a guide back them up? The guides we have hunted with always put their guns down after they determine we can shoot. If they leave the blind after a downed bird that sailed they will take their gun in case. Would you rather he not have a gun to dispatch the bird if found alive? It is between you and the guide if he hunts let's leave it that way..

Honestly I dont care if a guide shoots a limit or not. No need to further discuss. As regards to a captain's license that is true on the coast but not freshwater lakes. I would be in favor of any guide, tour guide, hunting, fishing guide that is running a vessel on public water with paying clients to have to obtain a captain's license.

I do have a question that I havent seen brought up and it's a two part question. First, are the duck numbers being reported by the usfws accurate? Are they telling us we have more ducks than what we really have. And the second questions is are harvest numbers being reported accurately? Why do we report HIP 8 months after the season. Why do we just report total duck numbers and not individual species numbers? Even further broken down to the sex of the bird.

Really I think an app or a website to go to and report numbers to the usfwsafter every hunt would be beneficial. I keep a running log of all birds I harvest and my group harvest. Total bag, number of every species and sex of every bird, date, location, water levels, etc.

I think that would provide much needed additional information on how many ducks we are taking, how many of a specific species, if that species can withstand that harvest rate, if we are taking to many hens, etc.

If we could report duck harvest daily and was linked to a location it would show some incredible data. You could see how everyone across the country is doing and watch how harvest rates go up and down based on weather patterns, hunting pressure or other factors

I can honestly say if I had to link up my harvest report with where I was hunting I would lie 99% of the time assuming that was public knowledge that anyone could open up an app and say well look they're shooting ducks down in this area.


I do agree the harvest report being 8 months later it's probably not real accurate. I also agree that we are probably not getting honest numbers in the surveys it does not appear that way to me anyways but I could just be wrong we don't see everything being down here in Texas

I wouldnt want location being public, or really any of the numbers being public, just data for the usfws to use to get better data on duck harvest.

I believe all wmas in texas require a harvest log to be submitted after your hunt.

I guarantee the hip info is wrong. I can't remember the amounts so I just make them up. It's a dumb [censored] program.

Regarding Oklahoma, at least our hunting there, worst in many years up in Northwest Oklahoma. Birds just never made it down. Mallards were way down. In Texas, my numbers were up - but I hunted more. Had good shoots on both openers and a few good days in between. But lots of poor days. I tried a hunting club for the first time, won't be rejoining. They had a few good big water properties, but they were always crowded and hunted hard, even with rest days on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday. I did some hunts around Eagle Lake - poorest I have seen it there ever. My brother won a free hunt down near Port Aransas, so I tagged along. I was surprised we did not even kill our red head limit. Though I did get a nice mature bufflehead in full winter plumage for a mount.

The internet:


DU: Raises $1.88B specifically for the PPR with the Wetlands for Tomorrow campaign, says "Hold our beer and watch this", raises additional $2.34B for PPR with Rescue Our Wetlands campaign.

Also the internet:

It's kinda ironic isnt it. On one hand we know the healthier the ducks return to their breeding grounds the more successfull they will be with raising a brood of chicks. But in the other hand we dispise any cause, reason or factor that may prevent us from making piles.

Surface drives are not the problem and I disagree they are to loud. They are louder than outboards though. Guys making modifications is what makes them really loud. I've been sitting in my boat the last 2 years on a Friday morning sipping coffee at dawn and watch a couple thousand birds come in...a few hundred yards away...knowing dam well the opener tomorrow morning I better be somewhere else....and I don't listen to my gut instinct only to be there and watch a pathetic morning evolve. Guys running up amongst the birds scouting are THE reason the birds are gone the next morning.....not the dam loudness of their motors. That said one can get the birds up and still have a great hunt the next day but you better be about the only one getting them up the day before.

Guides shooting with the clients....yawwwwn, next.

And just think about this....all we need is about 5% more birds and maybe just 3% or 4% coming south than whats came the last 2 years, and everyone will be throwing an end of the season party.

This season was my worst, last year was before this season. But I made bad decisions last year and was to busy this year with work and a new house.

I think things will get better its just human nature for some to go off after a bad year or 2.

I can't expect birds to migrate south when most of the temperatures this season were in the 50's & 30's since November. Spent 10 days in Kansas during the middle of December and had 1 morning in the mid 20's. Without snow cover and plenty of open water to the north, why would the birds push south with more options available with where they are currently at.

Our Kansas hunts in late November were near shirt sleeve weather. 38-40 in the morning up to 60 in the afternoon. Well educated birds that didn't decoy in the morning and came in after shooting time in the evening. This wasn't a good year for us but we didn't hunt that much. I'm looking for a boat for next year. It is hard to scout from a kayak when you need to motor in about 2 miles. It's even harder to get there before everyone else.

2 seasons in a row I have been asked by the USFWS to do a harvest survey. Last year they just wanted numbers and species, a log of sorts. This season, they asked me to send in a wing from each duck I harvested and also wing tips and tail feathers of geese. They did not ask for species info. Apparantly they store these wings and feathers until spring then they use them to determine Species, age and sex of the birds harvested. They will send me the data afterwards. Kind of cool.

I'm assuming that they ask a certain number of hunters to partake in these types of surveys in each region. This would give them a "snapshot" of the bird harvest. Obviously not super accurate but it would give a good ballpark when you compile enough of the numbers...

I also assume this is where they get some data to predict bird numbers....

So you're saying a guide is shooting birds for a client?
Did you know that is shooting a group limit and that's illegal?

I completely understand them taking their gun to take care of a cripple that sailed.

For an outfitter to be completely safe though, guides should not hunt with their clients. It exponentially decreases the chances of them getting jammed up by the feds.

Personally, I don't want a bird that I didn't shoot. I like to shoot my own birds with no discretion, so I'm not a fan of group hunting.
If I suck at shooting that day and you've already got your six, relax, take pics, etc, but you best not be trying to fill my limit. And if I have mine and you don't have yours, you now have someone to retrieve your downed birds, to take pics, and call if you want me to.

Since you did the wings this year, you will be asked to do it again for the next 2 years. At least that's how it worked when I and some fellow hunters were selected. After the 3rd year they will send you a letter saying 3 years in a row is all they can do with a single hunter in order to keep the surveys somewhat random. It was interesting that in a span of 5-6 years 5 hunters (including myself) out of my family/friend group of 10 hunters were selected.

IMHO, I don't think there as many ducks making it all the way to us. In 2012-14 I hunted west of Priddy, tons of ducks. 2015-16 I hunted N of Lk Brownwood, lots of ducks the first year, not as many the second year. 2017-18 I hunted Mullin, decent the first year, almost a bust till late season in 2018. This year, I was back at Lk Brownwood. We didn't really hunt till December and it was terrible. First years we had lots of Mallards and a few Gads. This year we had Mallards one weekend, the rest were Gads and female Spoonies.

Bird population is in decline overall. We can all play a part.


https://www.npr.org/2019/09/19/762090471/north-america-has-lost-3-billion-birds-scientists-say


Duck and geese hunters are actually doing a good job.

But, we keep hearing about Record numbers of waterfowl and well above LTA population....the duck numbers are a farce. I am more inclined to believe the article you have posted than USFWS surveys

I don't disagree with lackluster migration, i.e. birds not making it down. What is really bothersome to me is the lack of the photo migrators. Wigeon, Gadwall, Teal, etc...migrate more so on the length of day than weather. Mallards are definitely only going as far as they have to.

We don't have the Ag in the N TX region to hold mallards like we used, so it is understandable and the weather has to be right. The 'early' or, photo migrators, are the ones that should be here. These are what I've seen decline the most over the last 8yrs or so. And that isn't from weather not pushing them down as we've had weather some of those years.

Pressure on the birds has increased in that time span though. I have a group of about 8 different lakes that I have hunted for the last 20yrs. Until about 8yrs ago, I would see 1-2 other groups the ENTIRE season. Just a couple years ago, on the season opener, there were about 10 trailers in the parking lot for a lake that has maybe 2-3 spots to hunt. Pressure on those lakes has increased 10X and the birds aren't there like they used to be.

Well in that article it states that Duck numbers have increased. So there is that

Wonder what the laxing of some of these laws will do to duck populations
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.com/amphtml/trump-targets-migratory-birds-why-083000717.html

There are a lot of birds protected under that act that do not need protected egrets water turkeys crows. That is an outdated treaty that needs to be rewritten