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Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: Old Rabbit] #7695758 12/22/19 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Rabbit
Originally Posted by SnakeWrangler
Originally Posted by Pootie
Can you imagine the number of pictures the biologist would get to look at!

I don’t personally see that as a bad thing..... 2cents

Place a reasonable fee on each request say $25. I watched a really narrow buck go from an 8 to a 12 with trash for 3 years before it disappeared. I would gladly payed to get an exemption tag. He was well within his ears on the outside of his rack and I had him at 17 yards several times as he came in to check down wind of a bow hunting setup feeder.


Might improve awareness of AR concerns. +

Everyone is overworked already. -

$25 (reasonable) fee would IMO cut down the #s. If no downside (fee) I could see they could be inundated with photos both legit and illegit.

Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: Pootie] #7695810 12/22/19 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Pootie
Originally Posted by Old Rabbit
Originally Posted by SnakeWrangler
Originally Posted by Pootie
Can you imagine the number of pictures the biologist would get to look at!

I don’t personally see that as a bad thing..... 2cents

Place a reasonable fee on each request say $25. I watched a really narrow buck go from an 8 to a 12 with trash for 3 years before it disappeared. I would gladly payed to get an exemption tag. He was well within his ears on the outside of his rack and I had him at 17 yards several times as he came in to check down wind of a bow hunting setup feeder.


Might improve awareness of AR concerns. +

Everyone is overworked already. -

$25 (reasonable) fee would IMO cut down the #s. If no downside (fee) I could see they could be inundated with photos both legit and illegit.


But, consider the volume of field data they would be collecting and being paid to receive it.

I think it would be a tremendous value to them as to what is happening in the field. If they get 50 or 5000 applications it would help them better understand how their policy is truly affecting the herd. We already know it is improving the age of the herd....just an opportunity to monitor unintended consequences... 2cents

As I stated before, keep it a simple process and $25 is clearly inexpensive enough to weed out a lot of BS requests....

We should start a petition to TPWD....


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Milf does the trick.

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Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: Dalroo] #7696584 12/23/19 01:38 PM
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Like I said before I just work with Ibex trying to better them. I would think with AR's you are trying to do the same. 10 years ago the top Ibex is what I raised. I saw that Nubian type Ibex were bringing way more money than the Persian type I had. I started buying pure bred Nubian Ibex and breeding them to my Females. Every year selling the older females. Now 10 years later my Ibex look like the lower picture. WT I would think be the same. You want the better Bucks breeding the females. You are not going to change the genetics by letting narrow antlered Bucks keep breeding the Does.

Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: RJH1] #7696712 12/23/19 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RJH1
^^^Yep^^

Antler restrictions are dumb. In no way does it increase the "quality" of the deer herd, just the age of the worse bucks. Then like Don said above you end up removing the better bucks. And you will end up taking them out of the herd earlier. If you have a good deer that is going to hit 20 wide at 4.5 YO but makes 13 at 2.5, he is getting shot and taken out of the herd at 2.5. However if you have a crappy deer that don't make 13 till 4.5 he is in the gene pool 2 more years than the good deer. AR is backwards thinking if keeping quality deer in the herd is the goal.


This would only be true if you killed every 13 inch plus buck in your pasture, which is why there are bag limits.
And it does increase the quality of the bucks by the way, and it's up to the hunter to ease up on being trigger happy and letting some deer walk to achieve their real potential.
Beware that some posting on this topic don't hunt in AR counties, and have no first hand knowledge, and are giving only opinions.

Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: Jimbo] #7696722 12/23/19 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Jimbo
Originally Posted by RJH1
^^^Yep^^

Antler restrictions are dumb. In no way does it increase the "quality" of the deer herd, just the age of the worse bucks. Then like Don said above you end up removing the better bucks. And you will end up taking them out of the herd earlier. If you have a good deer that is going to hit 20 wide at 4.5 YO but makes 13 at 2.5, he is getting shot and taken out of the herd at 2.5. However if you have a crappy deer that don't make 13 till 4.5 he is in the gene pool 2 more years than the good deer. AR is backwards thinking if keeping quality deer in the herd is the goal.


This would only be true if you killed every 13 inch plus buck in your pasture, which is why there are bag limits.
And it does increase the quality of the bucks by the way, and it's up to the hunter to ease up on being trigger happy and letting some deer walk to achieve their real potential.
Beware that some posting on this topic don't hunt in AR counties, and have no first hand knowledge, and are giving only opinions.

Killing every narrow antlered buck that you have in your pasture and letting the better bucks live to breed is probably what needs to be done. And no I do not live in a AR county but have raised animals for a long time and have stayed a Holiday Inn Express.

Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: Dalroo] #7696748 12/23/19 05:07 PM
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I hunt both AR and non-ar counties. Age is the key to either. If you notice ARs are in counties with the most hunting pressure and in areas where people are known to practice "if it's brown, it's down". If people would take a little more time to learn how to judge a deer on the hoof and not feel the need to kill a buck every year there probably wouldn't be an AR discussion. The same antlers can grow in both places but they need time.

Central Texas Bucks 20 acres ARs county with trigger happy neighbors
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South Texas Bucks 8200 acres management minded hunters. No ARs
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Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: Dalroo] #7696804 12/23/19 06:11 PM
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Some bucks make AR's their first year. Some bucks will never make AR's.

My parents live in a AR county with a lot of smaller tracts of land that get hunted. There is a big costal field across the road and its not uncommon to see 40 or 50 deer in it. Before AR's there wouldn't be a single buck or maybe one or two spikes in the mix. After ar's there is a mix of buck in there. In my mind the main accomplishment of AR's is putting a no kill sing on at least some part of the buck herd every year. In those areas of heavy pressure and land segmentation I think it is the only thing that keeps them from all being shot.


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Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: hook_n_line] #7696923 12/23/19 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by hook_n_line


South Texas Bucks 8200 acres management minded hunters. No ARs
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[Linked Image]


What does this represent of the 8200 acre "management minded place" Hopefully their cull list?


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Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: Jimbo] #7697103 12/24/19 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimbo
Originally Posted by RJH1
^^^Yep^^

Antler restrictions are dumb. In no way does it increase the "quality" of the deer herd, just the age of the worse bucks. Then like Don said above you end up removing the better bucks. And you will end up taking them out of the herd earlier. If you have a good deer that is going to hit 20 wide at 4.5 YO but makes 13 at 2.5, he is getting shot and taken out of the herd at 2.5. However if you have a crappy deer that don't make 13 till 4.5 he is in the gene pool 2 more years than the good deer. AR is backwards thinking if keeping quality deer in the herd is the goal.


This would only be true if you killed every 13 inch plus buck in your pasture, which is why there are bag limits.
And it does increase the quality of the bucks by the way, and it's up to the hunter to ease up on being trigger happy and letting some deer walk to achieve their real potential.
Beware that some posting on this topic don't hunt in AR counties, and have no first hand knowledge, and are giving only opinions.


Age doesn't increase the quality of deer, only genetics. And if people can be coaxed to not kill every 13 inch plus in their pasture, they could also be coaxed to kill inferior deer and let better deer walk. In that way they would be leaving the better genetics in the herd and could remove the lesser ones. The only thing AR does that actually kinda helps is letting deer get some age on them, but AR in no way effects the genetics of the herd, other than the possibility of keeping lower quality deer in the herd (the ones that will never make the AR requirements), and allowing better animals to be shot.

Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: Dalroo] #7697354 12/24/19 07:37 AM
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We hunt in a non AR county, majority of bucks on camera are 1-3 years old (most being between 1-2), very rare that you find one on camera older than that and if you do, its at night time and you would need some luck to get him in the day time. I think AR, on the purpose of our place, would make it so the bucks could get bigger and get another year or 2 before they would be taken. I agree it might lead to having some taller narrow ones, but its hard for me to take a "mature" buck, since they don't ever make it that far in life. I don't think AR is for every place and every county and believe age will increase the quality of deer on our place.

Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: RJH1] #7697425 12/24/19 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by RJH1
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Originally Posted by RJH1
^^^Yep^^

Antler restrictions are dumb. In no way does it increase the "quality" of the deer herd, just the age of the worse bucks. Then like Don said above you end up removing the better bucks. And you will end up taking them out of the herd earlier. If you have a good deer that is going to hit 20 wide at 4.5 YO but makes 13 at 2.5, he is getting shot and taken out of the herd at 2.5. However if you have a crappy deer that don't make 13 till 4.5 he is in the gene pool 2 more years than the good deer. AR is backwards thinking if keeping quality deer in the herd is the goal.


This would only be true if you killed every 13 inch plus buck in your pasture, which is why there are bag limits.
And it does increase the quality of the bucks by the way, and it's up to the hunter to ease up on being trigger happy and letting some deer walk to achieve their real potential.
Beware that some posting on this topic don't hunt in AR counties, and have no first hand knowledge, and are giving only opinions.


Age doesn't increase the quality of deer, only genetics. And if people can be coaxed to not kill every 13 inch plus in their pasture, they could also be coaxed to kill inferior deer and let better deer walk. In that way they would be leaving the better genetics in the herd and could remove the lesser ones. The only thing AR does that actually kinda helps is letting deer get some age on them, but AR in no way effects the genetics of the herd, other than the possibility of keeping lower quality deer in the herd (the ones that will never make the AR requirements), and allowing better animals to be shot.

It was NEVER intended to influence genetics........its sole purpose is to help young bucks get to middle age or older.....and the proof speaks for itself.........buck quality in areas like east Texas has increased dramatically. I remember before the rule change you would here things like......bucks in east Texas will never grow antlers like other parts of the state because of nutrition, genetics.........turned out to be bs They just needed AGE!


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Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: redchevy] #7697428 12/24/19 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by redchevy
Originally Posted by hook_n_line


South Texas Bucks 8200 acres management minded hunters. No ARs
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


What does this represent of the 8200 acre "management minded place" Hopefully their cull list?


It's really just to compare what I see in the AR county i hunt to the Non-AR county I hunt. I've been able to speak to the small track owners around me and show them what the deer on the big lease look like vs our small tracts. 8200 acres with only 14 very selective hunters on it are able to grow big deer working together. Looking at the pictures can you honestly tell which ranch they might come from without comparison? Now some of our small tract people are getting the "picture". Most of the management deer on that big place are monsters somewhere else. As far as ARs go look at any of the pictures and try to judge the width of the antlers. Even the narrow tall racked deer from Central Texas is wider than 13 inches and is pushing 15. I know this because we keep measurements of spread, age and weight, total score not so much unless it is just exceptional. The average 2.5 year old deer on either place can be 8" to 13" wide. Average 3 year old is around 13" to 15" wide. Most 4 year old deer are 15" wide. The general rule of thumb that an alert mature deer is 13" between his ears is for people who don't have the patience to judge a deer on all features and combine them. We have deer selected every year that come out as management bucks. They are mature and at age 5 they are wider than 13" We've seen deer go under 13" after 8 years and everything but their knees look like a 3 year old. We went the route of "culling" but if you throw the age structure off then you really have a problem when you don't have any mature deer to harvest. Our biologist worked with us after the initial "cull" and said "Okay, now the numbers are right but the age structure is off. You should be taking more mature deer and get your hunters to quit thinking of 4 year and less deer as "culls" and let them age to see what they are at 5 or 6 when they hit their prime." He also said that one buck might breed 2 does a season and 4 if he's lucky due to the short time a doe is in estrus and how long he stays tied up with one doe. Does don't wait to be bred they are in season and out of season and are receptive for a short time. One buck in a herd of 10 does won't breed them all and if there are other bucks around they will also keep him occupied during this important time. 5+ management bucks are taken before the rut. If we have a true trophy buck we try and get it after the rut and hope he got to breed. I'll take management bucks and does over a trophy any day until I see the one that really gives me the shakes. I don't hunt like I used to but I love to watch the deer come back year after year and when one come in that gives me the shakes I may just have to let a sharp stick fly. I'm hoping to get a good camera for Christmas so I can share some better photos with you all.

Last edited by hook_n_line; 12/24/19 01:43 PM.

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Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: Dalroo] #7698331 12/25/19 06:04 PM
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Nice looking bucks HnL.


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Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: Dalroo] #7701522 12/29/19 08:50 PM
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How many of you only shoot mature does?


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Re: Antler Restriction Ponderings [Re: Dalroo] #7701925 12/30/19 03:59 AM
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I took a deer 3yrs ago that was close, ended up being 12 7/8" inside, too close to gripe about IMO. Took it to the processor and never thought another thing about it. Until my phone rang a few days later and a GW was on the other end. He introduced himself politely and asked if did I mind if he took a sample from my deer to test for CWD. I gladly agreed, he said he'd call if anything looked wrong with the results, and we hung up.


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