I do believe we are talking about a relatively small number of bucks. I biologist issued permit for a specific buck should be easy. If you can demonstrate a well documented buck through photographs the biologist can make the call. No different the MLD permits. They would have to be applied for. Another tool for people who want to truly manage their herd...

Seems pretty cut and dry to me

Can be very simple....doesn't have to and should not be a complex bureaucratic process.

And for the record I strongly support antler restrictions and live in a restriction county. They clearly have improved the herd in our area.

I am no expert on WT. But having wrote before on my experience in raising Ibex there would seem to be a way for some to be able to try to curb the narrow antler gene. Year after year of letting those bucks breed is only going to make the situation worse. I know if I would let the worse Billies breed the females pretty soon I would be out of business. Maybe for a few years the AR's should be that only bucks with less than a 13 inch spread could be taken. I also realize that the Does are half of the problem. If folks would every year during that time only shoot the oldest Does every year that would get them out of the pool. There also seems to be a problem in those AR counties with the ability to raise Deer. What is that problem? I know around here there are more Deer than ever before. Is the problem predators, parasites or people?

Cars, poachers, and predators in that order....

Yes, I would gladly agree with a "one buck - any buck" season every so often as a way to remove these older, narrow-racked deer.

Still, my first preference would be a system where biologists could send via email, tags that could be used after hunters have presented them with photo evidence of a specific buck that should be harvested.

Don, in a lot of areas I've hunted, we don't have 25% the number of deer per acre you guys have down south.

What is the fine for shooting a 12 7/8" inside spread buck?

From my perspective, state deer managers want more deer taken out of most areas than are actually harvested. Crop farmers certainly do.

Just come across this article about a Texas hunter getting hit with a $53,000 fine for poaching 5 elk and a deer. That is a righteous fine!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...officials-say/ar-BBYdgsh?ocid=spartanntp

What would happen is a lot of immature bucks hitting the ground.

Antler restrictions are not hurting the herd or propagating a trend to narrow racked bucks because immature bucks breed. These narrow racked mature bucks y’all are referring to are not the only bucks doing the breeding, therefore they are not influencing the genetic pool anymore than normal.

Even under a high fence scenario, culling mature deer isn’t gonna change anything. Culling younger deer with poor antler characteristics does.

1.) It’s a pretty good indicator and I would stick with it. Obviously every deer isn’t the same tip to tip but if you could tell that difference from a distance you wouldn’t be asking this question. If it’s too dark and you need to use his ears to judge don’t shoot it.

2.) Hopefully I wouldn’t shoot a deer with that close of a spread in an AR county. I’m like you and would err on the side of Caution. If he was really close, depending on where I was, I’d call the GW. If he was way shy and I made an mistake, depending on where I was, no telling what I’d do.

3.) Maybe some depending on the GW. I’ve met plenty and have come to realize they are just like humans. Some are nice, some are mean, some are funny, some are way too serious, some hate people, some like people.

4.) Your probably right and he may never be legal. You’ve got to remember the law wasn’t made for people that watch their deer and pay attention to what a good mature deer looks like regardless of spread. Sounds like you know your deer and what a mature one looks like. I’d like to think it was made to keep the knuckle heads from shooting anything with antlers and I think it has been pretty effective.

5.) You might be right but I’d love to see the pictures if you’ve got them. It sounds like he may be one of the hunters this rule was made for. It would be nice if the law was you couldn’t shoot a buck younger than 4. Unfortunately that would be a hard one to enforce.

Ouch...he deserved ever penny in my opinion....

I wasn’t fond of AR at first, but I’ve come around. The only thing I would change is some leniency for kids. 5 years ago I took my then 10 year old son hunting hoping he would get into it. He was really excited to go and after a couple of hours a mature 8 walked out that was about 12 1/2. I wouldn’t let him take the shot and he was clearly upset. He never stepped foot in a deer blind again. We have to find a way to get young hunters excited and in the field because we’re all getting older and the number of hunters in Texas are dwindling. If we don’t find a way to get young hunters involved, we could eventually lose what we love. Taking that first deer could have made a difference. And at the time, our county didn’t have a doe season.

Maybe a solution is to make legal bucks 13+” or at least 8 pts. That would allow hunters to cull some of the inferior bucks. Idk. Just a thought.

I will have to disagree. Every year the best bucks, those with over a 13" spread are taken. That leaves maybe some younger deer that will turn out good but it leaves all the less than 13" older deer to breed. The best bucks may have a chance to do some breeding but it leaves the inferior bucks to the majority of it. I can not see where this type of management is in the future going to help the overall WT quality.

^^^Yep^^

Antler restrictions are dumb. In no way does it increase the "quality" of the deer herd, just the age of the worse bucks. Then like Don said above you end up removing the better bucks. And you will end up taking them out of the herd earlier. If you have a good deer that is going to hit 20 wide at 4.5 YO but makes 13 at 2.5, he is getting shot and taken out of the herd at 2.5. However if you have a crappy deer that don't make 13 till 4.5 he is in the gene pool 2 more years than the good deer. AR is backwards thinking if keeping quality deer in the herd is the goal.

Leaving inferior deer can indeed be problem.
The group that moved off our lease when we took over 12 years ago were all eat up with being trophy hunters. The bragged that no mature trophy was allowed to see another year. They were seeing less trophies than they did and blamed it on the surrounding leases. The problem is they were not culling inferior deer and shooting a doe was like turning in your man card. They were the "gotta get a buck" crew with no idea of management.
We would see 30 does a sitting and were shooting 6-10 year old deer that wouldn't score 110". (Clearly part of the problem was overpopulation). It took eight years of serious killing to get that place in shape.

Yep. Game cameras help pre-determine whether to shoot or not, usually. During the rut you may have 'new' bucks come in though. I'm a fan of ARs but I do have a couple of bucks past their prime that cant be shot. Not interested in going MLD.

I think with technology today it wouldn't be difficult to set up a system to email trail cam pics to area biologist to get a exception to the rule tag to print out....east Texas bucks the last few years prove there's more positive to the rule than negative IMO.

Can you imagine the number of pictures the biologist would get to look at!

You are a dog breeder. You have a pen with 10 females in it. They are a certain breed. There is a certain time the females will come into heat. Also in this pen you have 3 purebred whatever type the females are and one mongrel. You sell all the purebred males before the females are ready to breed and only the mongrel is left to breed the females. What is the outcome?

I don’t personally see that as a bad thing.....

Place a reasonable fee on each request say $25. I watched a really narrow buck go from an 8 to a 12 with trash for 3 years before it disappeared. I would gladly payed to get an exemption tag. He was well within his ears on the outside of his rack and I had him at 17 yards several times as he came in to check down wind of a bow hunting setup feeder.

Do you really think that all over 13" bucks get killed? There's plenty of big bucks left to breed. I'm not convinced that culling really has any positive impact on the deer herd.

Yes, I would gladly agree with a "one buck - any buck" season every so often as a way to remove these older, narrow-racked deer.

Still, my first preference would be a system where biologists could send via email, tags that could be used after hunters have presented them with photo evidence of a specific buck that should be harvested.
[/quote]


What would happen is a lot of immature bucks hitting the ground.

Antler restrictions are not hurting the herd or propagating a trend to narrow racked bucks because immature bucks breed. These narrow racked mature bucks y’all are referring to are not the only bucks doing the breeding, therefore they are not influencing the genetic pool anymore than normal.

Even under a high fence scenario, culling mature deer isn’t gonna change anything. Culling younger deer with poor antler characteristics does. [/quote]
I will have to disagree. Every year the best bucks, those with over a 13" spread are taken. That leaves maybe some younger deer that will turn out good but it leaves all the less than 13" older deer to breed. The best bucks may have a chance to do some breeding but it leaves the inferior bucks to the majority of it. I can not see where this type of management is in the future going to help the overall WT quality.[/quote]
Do you really think that all over 13" bucks get killed? There's plenty of big bucks left to breed. I'm not convinced that culling really has any positive impact on the deer herd.[/quote]
Isn't only taking Bucks with over a 13" spread actually kind of a reverse culling? With that type of culling I actually see a negative impact on the Deer herd.