As I was sitting in the stand watching rutting bucks last weekend, I was thinking about the AR rules, and curious if others might share their experiences/thoughts.

1) We have a lot of bucks that are close, but I tend to err on the side of caution, and went several years without shooting at a buck for this reason. Outside the ears is a good indicator of being legal, but how "true" is it? Any other rules of thumb others here use to gauge inside spread? Especially in low light situations?

2) Say you see a buck that you gauge to be legal and shoot, only to find once it is down that it is just shy of 13" - maybe 12 3/4, 7/8, etc. What should you do? Or better yet, what would you do?

3) Say you shoot a "just shy of legal" buck in an AR County. Any latitude from TP&W? Seems like there should be, but also see how they can't make exceptions for some and not others. Curious if anyone here has ever had that conversation with a warden?

4) I passed on a very mature 8 point a week ago. Big bodied deer, roman nose, and lots of mass on his antlers, but not an especially tall rack and not outside ears. When I was glassing him, based on his body and antler mass, I was close to shooting, but really think he might have been sub-13" To me, at that age, he had pretty much maxed out on just how wide his antlers will ever grow, and may never be legal. Am I wrong?

5) Conversely, neighbor shot a much younger 8 pt with very little mass, but it measured 14" inside and given another few years, I think it would have grown into a very nice buck. Not faulting him for shooting, just pointing out that the small 8 pt he shot would have ultimately become a better breeder in the herd than the mature 8 pt I passed. Am I wrong?

Not trying to debate the law, I understand why it is needed, but would appreciate other's opinion and experiences.

1. you have to remember that the rule of thumb is outside the ears when in an alert posture. So, if the deer is relaxed, then outside the ears may actually be 15 or 16 inches. Also, a large bodied Buck may have bigger ears than a smaller Buck. I think a lot of mature Bucks that some people pass on are well past the 13" rule, but people are afraid to shoot and break that law.
2. I have not had that issue pop up yet. If it did, I probably would not go report myself, much like I would not go report myself for running a red light.
3. If it were truly a mature buck, I would hop that there would be some latitude. If not, I would argue it in court for sure.
4. refer to answer 1. Are you sure he wasn't legal?
5. Yep, this is part of what is wrong with ARs. But how else would we be able to get more bucks growing older before getting shot? Just saying you can't shoot a buck until it is 3.5 or 4.5 years old would be unenforceable.

1. On most older bucks, ear wide is wider than legal and sometimes by a good margin. There are some bucks out there that are 15" between the ears. I would think it is almost always true. The question becomes 'how good a look do you have, and where do you think 'outside' is? When in doubt, let 'em walk. I've seen a lot of ground shrinkage on deer killed right at the end of legal light.

2. I try to target mature bucks. In 40 years I have never seen one at our place in Mills County that wasn't at least 13" wide. IMO the law is not trying to protect antler size so much as it is age. If I shot a 5.5+yr old buck that was 12 1/2" wide I'm going to tag him and mark the 13" box on my license. At the point I encounter the warden we can have a conversation about it. However, we have a lot of deer and it would have to be both mature and pretty spectacular in points and mass for me to say 'He's either legal or close enough' and pull the trigger.

3. It's going to depend on the age of the deer and the mood of the warden but I think there would be some latitude, such as driving 78 in a 75 with DPS. I have not had that discussion with a warden, though. I suspect there are a lot of wardens with a black/white attitude, and some with a gray attitude. Judges too, you may get some leniency there that the officer didn't give.

4. I've seen some bucks add 1-2" in width in a given year; I've also seen them lose that much. It's hard to say if your buck would add or not. Given that age and description I wouldn't bet on it, but if he's 12.25" now he could easily be 13.125 next year.

5. I have no problem with a person shooting a legal deer that they are happy with. I will applaud the harvest, help load him, take a picture, and be happy for the hunter. However, it grinds my gears when someone shoots a young buck like that and then talks out the other side of their mouth about 'We don't have any big bucks where I hunt'. Yeah, and you never will if you keep killing immature deer.

I enjoy running trail cams and believe they can help you prepare for making AR decisions. If I was in an AR county I would hang a ruler/yardstick etc. on my feeder leg, feed pen fence etc. for reference in judging deer pre season and it would help recognize deer on the run etc.

I would try and get a good idea of the ear tip spread in the area.

If I shot one that was under, I wouldn't be happy about it, but I don't turn myself in when my speedometer creeps up to 85 mph or when I roll through a stop sign either. We home process our deer from start to finish.

If I was to get checked id fess up to it and be at the wardens mercy.

Since the TPWD handbook recommends using the 'Alert Ears' method to help determine inside spread...any Warden/Judge/JP should be willing to consider all aspects of the situation.

Of course, the wording leaves 'wiggle room' for the prosecution ...since the 'Alert Ears' method is presented only as a 'guide' and not the 'standard'.

We can only hope that most Wardens would exercise their discretion in cases where the inside spread is very close. But I can say with every confidence... IF it goes to court...a Judge/JP is going to side with LEO nearly every time.

From the TPWD handbook:

Pelosi would tell you that you have to shoot it in order to see how wide it is.

I have a friend that grew up in Lufkin & moved back about 12 years ago. He will tell you the AR have made a change for the positive for the most part. There are some flat out hosses coming out of east Texas the past few years.Think the brown it's down mentality is slowly losing speed.. I imagine there is more than few older deer pushing 13" taken every year but its nice to see them getting some age on them.

IMHO I would recommend "If in doubt...... let him walk. There is good chance he will be bigger next year.

Also, I truly believe in " ground shrinkage " .....how many of us have seen horns , get excited, take the shot and when we get to it it is not the monster we thought?

My general opinion of AR is that is a good thing. I have owned my place 39 years and before AR I seldom saw bucks 13+. Since this county has become AR I started seeing bigger and more bucks. They seem to get bigger every year. This year I have seen 4 nice bucks. Also seeing lots of border line bucks. I have reached a point in life where I won't be shooting anything unless it is a personal best or close.

They're not perfect (but what is) but have definitely increased hunter opportunities for taking nicer bucks.

hah

While i understand the 13+ rule and the thought behind it in letting the buck mature. What gets me is the spike tag. My preference would be instead of 2 buck tags only have 1 tag to use on any deer i choose to tag.

I've hunted AR counties for several years, probably over 10 yrs to be exact and I've seen that where I hunted they work in increasing the number of deer and a bonus of allowing bucks to get some age on them rather than having their productive years cut short.
There are three camps on this.
The first are those that have gotten on a lease for a year or two, and feel that AR's are unfair and that they have spent good money to hunt and shoot the deer they feel entitled to shoot, and go to wringing their hands on possibly passing on a buck they felt would have, or would have not made it, and missing "their" chance at filling a tag.
Then you have those who swear AR's have not helped and have caused many narrow racked bucks to breed and pass on their narrow buck trait.
Those that feel that way should apply for MLD tags and AR's are only part of their problems with their deer herd.
Others, me included, have seen the long term effect AR's have had, and the positive results over a long period of time.
There are those who will never be convinced and they can make good arguments to back up their case, but I can only speak for myself, and I say AR's are not the cure all, and more thought of where and how AR's are applied, and with more flexibility by TPWD would go a long way to improve the concept.
I for one don't think TPWD wants to change anything, and I'm sure they don't want to open that can of worms.

You'd see a lot of people going back to shooting young bucks if that was the case. Yes, they'd only be able to shoot one, but I bet there are some people out there now that aren't getting a buck every year because they're too lazy to hunt enough to kill a 13" deer. We're slowly getting over 'it's brown, it's down' and 'gotta get a buck'. 1 any-deer tag would take us right back there.

The fact that some deer will never develop a wide rack has been the biggest learning point for me. Saw a buck once a hunter shot that fell 1/2 inch below the minimum. He shot it because he couldn't believe a buck that big and with so much mass in its antlers could not make the 13-inch minimum. I saw the buck myself and the diameter of the antlers at their bases must have close to two inches.

That was my point in the original comment about the buck I passed. He had very good mass at the bases, but just just not much length or width. I may have been pleasantly surprised, but feel confident he would have been shy of legal. Either way, someone else may get a shot and take it or maybe he grows just a bit wider between now and next season. Not in a hurry on my end, and more about the hunt than the shot.

The "spirit" of the AR's has always been to allow the bucks with good potential to live at least to their third year. Unfortunately, the TPWD hasn't found a way that allows hunters to take bucks that have reached that age without having to judge the width of their rack.

As it stands now, a hunter who takes a buck that has reached that age or older but has rack that's less than 13-inches wide is taking an illegal deer.

We have found that ear tip to ear tip on most the bucks we have shot is around 15" but we still always look to be outside the ears to follow the "better safe than sorry" logic. That being said we are now MLD for the first time this year and though we now have an established quota of deer to kill we can shoot whatever we want. Overall I like the AR rules it definitely saves younger bucks and increases the odds of seeing a big one. It does make bucks like this frustrating though lol.

people always focus on the 1 mature deer that doesent make AR's and ignore the hundreds that do make maturity because of AR's

The ones that do will be hunted while the ones that don't will stay in the gene pool....

and does carry 50% of the genetics so that’s the wild card.

So your saying we should go back to a 90% yearling buck harvest, because that was the right way to manage?

That buck that is hunted and harvested at 4 bred for 3 years. It’s not like he didn’t get a chance to spread his seed.

Not saying that at all....but I think there should be a way to cull clearly mature bucks that have oddball racks....

Unfortunately joe hunter has a hard time aging deer and antler restrictions is the most basic catch all that most hunters can understand abide by.

It’s proven that culling for quality is pretty ineffective on most low fence places so leaving the minority buck that will never make AR’s is pretty much a drop in the bucket in regards to gene pools anyway.

It’s not like these places are going to be overrun with 12” wide mature bucks of things continue to go the way they are going

Deer that will make AR’s can and do breed prior to being 13” wide thus ensuring the appropriate amount of their genetics are spread.

Deer do the majority of breeding at 3 & 4 years of age

I think the antler restrictions are awesome. As long as there are biologists managing the herd and changing them as needed.

I would expect a few years of minimum width restrictions followed by a few years of first tag required a spike or forkhorn, and regionally managed vs statewide.

I believe that TPWD has been progressive in their thinking but change is slow because everything in government is hampered by some type of arbitrary, beurocratic process.

Also, you probably well know, without antler restrictions most bucks won't see 2 years of age in most regions. Antler restrictions are necessary and should be cyclic

How would you write that into law that would make the law clear?