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MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP #7662081 11/14/19 08:47 PM
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Greg Offline OP
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Just getting into the game and need to purchase a scope. I will be using the scope on two different rifles for two different applications. I’m getting a Rem 700 5-r in 6.5CM that will be used for hunting and some of the THF rifle competitions. Shots on deer will probably be within 250 yards and I’m not sure how far the shots are at the THF matches.

I will also be mounting the scope on a 10/22 to use for the .22 matches coming up. Not sure how long those shots will be either.

My question is not just which you would choose, but why would you choose it. Is it kind of a Ford Vs Chevy type thing or is one better than the other? This will just be me shooting by myself and I won’t be having a spotter.

MOA or MIL

FFP or SFP

Thanks guys!

Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662110 11/14/19 09:16 PM
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Everyone screams FFP but that is if you intend to use your reticle for holds instead of dialing elevation and windage. I’ve owned many of both and have never used the reticle for holds. All that said, most of your more precise scopes will be FFP. My favorite scope that I’ve owned is FFP, not because of that but because of its unquestionable dialing accuracy vs price. SS 5-20HD.

Mil vs moa is a personal question.

Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662121 11/14/19 09:27 PM
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If starting out, 100%, go mils. It is more useful to use in the field and easier to learn with. I can shoot either moa or mils equally as good, but mils is an easier and more broad use for longer ranges.

I also prefer SFP. Almost all my scopes are SPF, but I do like FFP when needed. The main negative of a FFP and high magnification is it covers up a lot of real estate in the center cross hair on the target for precision shooting. It also makes the reticle smaller at low magnification. In SFP, it stays the same all the time. I use my NF scopes in 22x, 11x and sometimes 5.5x magnification for accurate holds. 22x the normal hash marks are .5 mils in size. At 11x they are 1 mil, and at 5.5x they are 2 mils wide. I know this and use this. It works for me, but not everyone can run a rifle and scope like that. FFP you don't have to worry about it. You just dial in the magnification you want, and your reticle is the same. That's the benefit. After that, it's up to you.



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Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662141 11/14/19 09:48 PM
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Scroll down and read Mil vs. MOA

http://www.precisionriflehunters.com/blog/

The "holds" that happen every shot, is windage. Even if one dials for elevation, hold for wind. Mirage gets so thick you have a blurry target, turn the magnification down. If you have an SFP scope, now that you turned down, a Mil is no longer a Mil, it is more than a Mil.

The reticle covers the target an equal amount at ANY magnification. A Mil is always a Mil, so thickness of reticle in front of target size also always stays the same

SFP adds math, MOA adds math, Mils are easier to use.


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Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662142 11/14/19 09:48 PM
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Go Mils if you are just starting out!! Life is 10x (pun intended) easier when doing the math on your wind.

As for SFP or FFP-- I made the leap to FFP-- I can turn on the illumination at low power if I feel the reticle is a bit too fine but hunting so far this year with both my FFP Nightforce scope I haven't had an issue down on 4x.

If you plan to hunt regularly with the rifle I would go FFP- too many times I've had situations where I wasn't at max magnification so my subtensions wouldn't be correct for holding over and there wasn't time to dial. FFP solves that problem completely.

Should you stick with SFP go get the scope Chad is talking about- Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x... they are dirt cheap now since the NX8 came out!

Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: wp75169] #7662145 11/14/19 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by wp75169
Everyone screams FFP but that is if you intend to use your reticle for holds instead of dialing elevation and windage. I’ve owned many of both and have never used the reticle for holds. All that said, most of your more precise scopes will be FFP. My favorite scope that I’ve owned is FFP, not because of that but because of its unquestionable dialing accuracy vs price. SS 5-20HD.

Mil vs moa is a personal question.


Thank's for your reply. You are the 4th person who has told me to buy that scope. Must be a sign. It's just so expensive. I really wish I could find a slightly used one, but can't see them anywhere. Is it really that much better than the SS 3-14X42 non HD? I'm finding those used around the $450-$550 mark and the new HD's I'm finding are $1250. As a novice shooter, do you think it's worth the extra $700 for 8mm's larger glass that is HD?

Also, if anyone see's a used SS 5-20HD, please send me a PM.

Thanks again!

Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: duckhunter175] #7662148 11/14/19 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by duckhunter175

Should you stick with SFP go get the scope Chad is talking about- Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x... they are dirt cheap now since the NX8 came out!


LOL...What's dirt cheap?

Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662152 11/14/19 09:54 PM
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I answered your PM, I guess I wasn't specific enough.

Forget about objective size, that is not why there is such a large money difference. SWFA "HD" means High Definition, and it really shows. I've got more time using the 5-20X HD than anyone else you will find. Weekly use since 2012. It is MUCH clearer than the 3-15X. And I have shot with that one on customer's rifles, it is a noticeable difference. Inside 400 yards, you probably won't see the difference. Past that, you certainly will. The 5-20X also has 10 a Mil elevation turret, the 3-15X has a 5 Mil. Just on my range, you will get to the second rev on a 5 Mil turret. With a 10 Mil turret, you're dialing past 1000 yards, and still not on the second rev. You will save money buying the right thing in the first place, trust me. And the right one, in these two, is the 5-20X HD.

Last edited by FiremanJG; 11/14/19 09:56 PM.

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Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: FiremanJG] #7662165 11/14/19 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by FiremanJG
I answered your PM, I guess I wasn't specific enough.

Forget about objective size, that is not why there is such a large money difference.


I know you did, and believe me I appreciate and value your input. That's why I asked you. I also know this is what you do for a living, so I'd expect you to invest more in your equipment than someone like me who is just getting started out. I posted it here because I also value other's opinions as well... maybe someone in the same situation as I am. This will be my second bolt action rifle...ever. I'm not balling like some of the guys on here and the extra $700 is a big chunk of change to me. If I could get by with the non-HD version and keep this whole rifle and everything that goes with it under $2g, I'd be all about it. That's pretty much my budget.

Thanks again for your help.

Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662169 11/14/19 10:18 PM
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You should get what you feel comfortable getting. Some believe in "buy once, cry once" and I'm one of those. That said, we don't all have that luxury.

Most people have this issue because they invest in the gun and then forget about the glass on top. Pardon the pun, but I call this "scope creep" eeks333

Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662178 11/14/19 10:26 PM
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Sounds like you've got most of your questions answered- this is a good start to do some reading too!

https://www.primalrights.com/library/articles/tag/optics

Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662187 11/14/19 10:35 PM
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Second focal plane with MOA turrets and Mil reticle. You get a little of everything. grin

Last edited by scottfromdallas; 11/14/19 10:35 PM.

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Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: duckhunter175] #7662195 11/14/19 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by duckhunter175
Sounds like you've got most of your questions answered- this is a good start to do some reading too!

https://www.primalrights.com/library/articles/tag/optics


Thank you. That's exactly what I need up

Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662229 11/14/19 11:40 PM
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here's another read on mil vs moa

[img]https://www.targettamers.com/guides/mil-vs-moa/[/img]


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Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662236 11/14/19 11:50 PM
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In the hunting world I find Ffp worthless until about 6x plus which luckily is where I begin. If you choose ffp make sure it’s illuminated

If night hunting go sfp

Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662252 11/15/19 12:01 AM
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For me Mil and FFP. Just easier


Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662299 11/15/19 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Greg
Originally Posted by FiremanJG
I answered your PM, I guess I wasn't specific enough.

Forget about objective size, that is not why there is such a large money difference.


I know you did, and believe me I appreciate and value your input. That's why I asked you. I also know this is what you do for a living, so I'd expect you to invest more in your equipment than someone like me who is just getting started out. I posted it here because I also value other's opinions as well... maybe someone in the same situation as I am. This will be my second bolt action rifle...ever. I'm not balling like some of the guys on here and the extra $700 is a big chunk of change to me. If I could get by with the non-HD version and keep this whole rifle and everything that goes with it under $2g, I'd be all about it. That's pretty much my budget.

Thanks again for your help.


I started hunting, then shooting far, then being able to hit animals far. So my recommendation is based on making hits on anything. Be it paper, steel, or hide. I've been down this road you're on, and so have many others on this forum. I can think of several members that would chime in and agree that you should just skip straight to the right scope at the start. You're going to end up there anyway, and it is cheaper to do it in the front.

I realize budgets, and I'll do all I can to keep someone inside theirs. Yet you have not said the 5-20 HD is out of the question, you've just asked what the extra cost is for. I'm trying to help that make sense.

I cannot remember how many times I've been one-on-one with someone at my range that was not having stellar results with their rifle scope. I hand them my rental rifle, with a really good scope on it, they step their way right down the range and say "well, this is much easier with good equipment".

Yeah, no chit. wink


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Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662354 11/15/19 01:58 AM
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Ok, my other post was in jest but here are two within your price range. Had to edit to remove a link because I think it is MOA/MIL.


https://www.natchezss.com/weaver-ta...le-33-9-6-8-fov-3-98-er-black-matte.html

https://www.samplelist.com/swfa-ss-3-15x42-tactical-rifle-scope-demo-a-9.html?___SID=U

I have the SWFA.

Last edited by scottfromdallas; 11/15/19 02:02 AM.

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Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662365 11/15/19 02:07 AM
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Here is another. The pic make is look like it's MOA turrets but it could be an error. Fireman probably knows if this is the correct model. The price is good.


https://www.natchezss.com/burris-xt...-g2b-mil-dot-reticle-ff-matte-black.html


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Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662381 11/15/19 02:17 AM
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Isn’t there always 5-20HDs on the samplelist for $8-900 including sunshade, caps, and throw lever?

Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: scottfromdallas] #7662409 11/15/19 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by scottfromdallas

Here is another. The pic make is look like it's MOA turrets but it could be an error. Fireman probably knows if this is the correct model. The price is good.


https://www.natchezss.com/burris-xt...-g2b-mil-dot-reticle-ff-matte-black.html



Pretty sure Burris got the memo a long time ago, and know better than to make a scope where the turrets don't match the reticle. The specs say .1 Mil adjustments.

I've been thinking about this very scope for my LR-308. It is a very good scope. I had one for review and they didn't ask for it back for a year. I have not a single bad thing to say about it, and it has much better glass clarity than the SS 3-15X.


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Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: FiremanJG] #7662418 11/15/19 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Originally Posted by Greg
Originally Posted by FiremanJG
I answered your PM, I guess I wasn't specific enough.

Forget about objective size, that is not why there is such a large money difference.


I know you did, and believe me I appreciate and value your input. That's why I asked you. I also know this is what you do for a living, so I'd expect you to invest more in your equipment than someone like me who is just getting started out. I posted it here because I also value other's opinions as well... maybe someone in the same situation as I am. This will be my second bolt action rifle...ever. I'm not balling like some of the guys on here and the extra $700 is a big chunk of change to me. If I could get by with the non-HD version and keep this whole rifle and everything that goes with it under $2g, I'd be all about it. That's pretty much my budget.

Thanks again for your help.


I started hunting, then shooting far, then being able to hit animals far. So my recommendation is based on making hits on anything. Be it paper, steel, or hide. I've been down this road you're on, and so have many others on this forum. I can think of several members that would chime in and agree that you should just skip straight to the right scope at the start. You're going to end up there anyway, and it is cheaper to do it in the front.

I realize budgets, and I'll do all I can to keep someone inside theirs. Yet you have not said the 5-20 HD is out of the question, you've just asked what the extra cost is for. I'm trying to help that make sense.

I cannot remember how many times I've been one-on-one with someone at my range that was not having stellar results with their rifle scope. I hand them my rental rifle, with a really good scope on it, they step their way right down the range and say "well, this is much easier with good equipment".

Yeah, no chit. wink


I can appreciate all your saying. And you are right, I never told you my budget or that the 5-20 HD is out of the question. A new one @1250 is out, but I would jump on a slightly used one for $800-900. With the gun and the TT trigger I'm at $1005, and I'd like to stay right at $2k all in. Thanks again for your help. I'm really looking forward to getting into a new hobby!

Originally Posted by wp75169
Isn’t there always 5-20HDs on the samplelist for $8-900 including sunshade, caps, and throw lever?


Seems like they have a ton of swfa scopes on there, so maybe I just need to wait a few weeks and one might pop up. I'll go ahead and get the gun and everything else now, and wait and see what I can find. Thanks!

Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662461 11/15/19 03:15 AM
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Black Friday is coming

Prices listed can usually be better but you have to call

Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: scottfromdallas] #7662491 11/15/19 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by scottfromdallas

Here is another. The pic make is look like it's MOA turrets but it could be an error. Fireman probably knows if this is the correct model. The price is good.


https://www.natchezss.com/burris-xt...-g2b-mil-dot-reticle-ff-matte-black.html



I really like this scope. Also just read a great review from Sniper Central. It gets me in the game and leaves a little extra for a bipod and some other goodies. I like that it has a zero stop and is illuminated as well. I think I'm gonna go for it. Thanks Scott! And thank you all for your help!

Re: MOA or MIL & FFP or SFP [Re: Greg] #7662495 11/15/19 04:00 AM
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Greg, you will use it at these .22 matches and I will be there. I will be using an XTR 4-20x FFP mil and damn near everyone will be shooting mil so if something screws up or your dope is slightly off we can call it in mils. MOA and second focal have a place and I have a few but they are on dedicated rifles. My XTR was $1,100 so that is a frigging steal


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