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Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: TexasUplander] #7656955 11/09/19 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuckw

I personally wish the entire state had antler restrictions for WT!


The whole state doesn’t need the AR restrictions. Some area actually have 3 buck counties.


Still looking for a S Texas quail lease spot.
Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7656956 11/09/19 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by QuitShootinYoungBucks
Originally Posted by sig226fan (Rguns.com)
I thought a few years of Antler Restrictions was going to cure all of this, and there would be plenty of nice deer in every age range? All they need are a few years.... what has it been now, 15?

There should be tons of 4.5-7.5 year old bucks out there now. grin bolt


That I know of, hunters have taken at least 10 deer so far this year in Mills County over 140, including several over 150 and a 165. 20 years ago there would have been 2-3 for an entire season and many years there wasn't a single deer that broke 140.


Exactly right. We used to own 800 acres in Goldthwaite (Mills County) back then and I did a lot of hunting on that property. A 110-120 class deer back then was considered pretty good. Lots of deer, but not good quality. Turkey out the Wazoo...though.



I can see where it might help in counties with a decent herd to start with; however the rules which came with the "automatic kill every spike" bonus tag, has decimated North/east counties that didn't have the numbers to begin with; Even TPWD admits it was limited data, and on purpose do not have data sets in the last 7-10 years

We'll never have anything but anecdotal information from the guys at the gas station/coffee shop until there's a check in system;

Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7656999 11/09/19 08:31 PM
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It was a pretty morning for sure. Not too cold (about 33°F) here.

Saw five bucks and two Does. One got past me very early. Walked straight across the old logging road and into the brush before I could get a good look at it, but judging by the body size...an actual mature deer. Then had a small 8 point show up at 7:30 (plenty of light by then), took a few pics. Then at 9:00 a.m. I had 3 bucks come by in the span of about 20 minutes.

A tall, narrow 8 (not legal), another 8 with a busted off G3 (also too narrow) and the last one (legal but not what I am looking for) I didn't get a picture of it, because he caught me opening the plexiglass window on the blind. He just locked in on the blind and stood there. I was holding the window half open with my right hand and looking at the buck though my binoculars with my left. This went on for several minutes, me not moving. Finally, he just didn't like the situation and slowly eased off into the brush.

So at least the deer were moving. But that's also the problem this time of year...the bucks are 'moving/traveling' and you don't have long to size them up...if you hunt in wooded areas like I do.

I was in my Daughter's stand this morning and it is situated about 200 yds. inside the wood-line from the pasture. The deer feel comfortable back in the woods and in the evenings especially...they will 'stage' there an hour or so before sundown before venturing out into the pastures at dark.

The area I have the stand in..is a natural funnel due to terrain features. We are typically only looking at about 150 yds. of woods with a 90°-120° angle of view. So its's asking a lot to get any particular buck to walk through it. I have shooting lanes carved out...but you have to stay alert (see video below).

Anyway, no mature bucks yet for me...but its early in the season still. I'll just watch the tall, skinny, young bucks until something better comes along. I always enjoy my time in the woods...no matter what shows up.




Attached Files IMG_0806 (800x600).jpgIMG_0800 (800x600).jpgIMG_0780 (800x600).jpg
Last edited by flintknapper; 11/09/19 08:37 PM.

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Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7657323 11/10/19 03:39 AM
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Here’s one from a few years ago.
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Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7657448 11/10/19 02:03 PM
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I have never understood the fascination on the amount of exposed bone on a buck's head. The excessive obsession with antlers will eventually lead to the non-hunting public turning against us. They can and have voted to pass laws in other states that have seriously impacted hunting. And with the number of displaced liberals moving here from CA, you would be a fool to think it will not eventually happen here.

I think you should be able to tag any buck you want. Cant eat the antlers.


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Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7657460 11/10/19 02:19 PM
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I don't believe there's any question that antler restrictions have given hunters and perhaps even many biologists an education on antler development. IMO, it's easy to see how the antler width will vary between bucks that are the same age, much like people grow to different heights. And just like people, the antlers on a given buck grow thicker once the width has reached its full potential. It's something that hunters were never able to see for themselves when any buck was legal for harvest.

I'm also of the opinion that AR's may provide hunters with an education on high-grading and whether or not AR's can impact the genetic makeup of deer in a given area. An overabundance of bucks with tall and narrow racks would be clear indication that both of these are in fact valid assumptions.

The photo below that I ran across in one of the deer hunting rags works well as describing my thoughts. IMHO, anyone who believes the buck on the left will eventually develop a rack that's as wide as the buck on the right is dreaming.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Texas Dan; 11/10/19 02:32 PM.

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Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7657829 11/10/19 09:45 PM
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While I've read many articles that explain how antlers grown for pedicles that are a part of the skull. I've yet to read any studies that cover the variances in how pedicles can be positioned in the skull. Like the eyes in a human which vary in their spacing, you would think the angling of pedicles could vary in deer. If this is true, these differences would explain why some bucks develop racks that grow in a more upward direction than other bucks.

Although the author doesn't address this in the article at the link below, the photos do seem to show that bucks always develop racks that carry roughly the same ratio of height to width.

Link

Last edited by Texas Dan; 11/10/19 11:11 PM.

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Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7658244 11/11/19 04:15 AM
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If you want legal deer let them live until they are 5 years old.
Most of the pics on this post are young deer.

Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7658281 11/11/19 05:38 AM
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Tall but narrow buck in Houston County

Last edited by Ringtail; 11/11/19 05:39 AM.
Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: Ringtail] #7658435 11/11/19 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ringtail
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Tall but narrow buck in Houston County


Good example.

You are about 60 miles West of me...but I have the same thing here...increasingly.


Spartans ask not...how many, but where!
Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7658517 11/11/19 04:04 PM
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I am in Denton County and on our place we have a narrow fork horn problem. We have a very big very old buck that is a heavy narrow fork horn that I have had in my scope the last three years and can not kill him because of ARs. The other day I had a yearling walk through with a very similar rack as his. We need to kill them both but can not because of ARs. I think the rules are a net positive, we are low fenced with brown and down neighbors so with ARs the bucks at least get to be three before they are shot. I sure would like to be able to take out undesirable characteristics like our wonky buck though!

Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: BassBuster1] #7658523 11/11/19 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BassBuster1
I am in Denton County and on our place we have a narrow fork horn problem. We have a very big very old buck that is a heavy narrow fork horn that I have had in my scope the last three years and can not kill him because of ARs. The other day I had a yearling walk through with a very similar rack as his. We need to kill them both but can not because of ARs. I think the rules are a net positive, we are low fenced with brown and down neighbors so with ARs the bucks at least get to be three before they are shot. I sure would like to be able to take out undesirable characteristics like our wonky buck though!


It's a problem that could be easily addressed through the technology that is now available to most hunters.

When you get a photo of an older buck like the one above that won't meet the AR's, send it your local TPWD biologists so that he can review the photo and send you an email approving the harvest. If he feels the buck for some reason doesn't satisfy the "spirit" of the AR's, he/she will reject it. Keep the email on your smartphone as proof should you need to show it to a TPWD officer.

Last edited by Texas Dan; 11/11/19 04:13 PM.

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Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7658560 11/11/19 04:37 PM
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Sometimes it's hard being me! But somebody has to do it.
Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: Texas Dan] #7658592 11/11/19 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Originally Posted by BassBuster1
I am in Denton County and on our place we have a narrow fork horn problem. We have a very big very old buck that is a heavy narrow fork horn that I have had in my scope the last three years and can not kill him because of ARs. The other day I had a yearling walk through with a very similar rack as his. We need to kill them both but can not because of ARs. I think the rules are a net positive, we are low fenced with brown and down neighbors so with ARs the bucks at least get to be three before they are shot. I sure would like to be able to take out undesirable characteristics like our wonky buck though!


It's a problem that could be easily addressed through the technology that is now available to most hunters.

When you get a photo of an older buck like the one above that won't meet the AR's, send it your local TPWD biologists so that he can review the photo and send you an email approving the harvest. If he feels the buck for some reason doesn't satisfy the "spirit" of the AR's, he/she will reject it. Keep the email on your smartphone as proof should you need to show it to a TPWD officer.


I was not aware that was an option...kind of seems weird that they would make exceptions to a law on a case by case basis. I will try to get some photos of him for sure. I have only seen him once each of the last three seasons and then saw what I think is his son opening day this year.

Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: BassBuster1] #7658613 11/11/19 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BassBuster1
I was not aware that was an option...kind of seems weird that they would make exceptions to a law on a case by case basis. I will try to get some photos of him for sure. I have only seen him once each of the last three seasons and then saw what I think is his son opening day this year.


Not an option at this time. I was only suggesting it as a way for TPWD biologists to use current technology to apply their knowledge beyond their MLDP efforts.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7658615 11/11/19 05:19 PM
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This weekend I watched a small 5 point "basket" rack getting interested in some does. His body size was small as well as his rack. 2 other legal but young deer were not interested in does yet at all. I really wish that I could cull that small old basket rack!! I saw an old buck come to the processing plant that had a tall forked antler inside the ears on one side and the other antler was freshly broken off half way up, lol. SPIKE!

Last edited by bronco71; 11/11/19 05:23 PM.
Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7658629 11/11/19 05:28 PM
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The only way to circumvent Atler Restrictions is to become MLDP.

A GW or TPWD biologist cannot give you permission to break the law.

Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7658783 11/11/19 08:06 PM
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Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: QMC SW/EXW] #7658874 11/11/19 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by QMC SW/EXW
I have never understood the fascination on the amount of exposed bone on a buck's head. The excessive obsession with antlers will eventually lead to the non-hunting public turning against us. They can and have voted to pass laws in other states that have seriously impacted hunting. And with the number of displaced liberals moving here from CA, you would be a fool to think it will not eventually happen here.

I think you should be able to tag any buck you want. Cant eat the antlers.


Screwm, about time for cowboys and leftist scum anyway! I hunt horns so I can spend more time in the field hunting. Just because you are not a serious hunter does not mean the rest of us have to be like you. Bending over for the leftists is not the way to deal with them, might be what you are used to but I plan on making every one of them uncomfortable as possible.

Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7658930 11/11/19 10:18 PM
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What is most concerning is that if high-grading is slowly happening and hunters are shooting the width out of the herd, the only way the TPWD will become aware of it is through the MDLP. With this being a more limited cross section of the total harvest, you would think the vast majority of these deer with tall and narrow racks are being seen by hunters who have no means to report them. After all, they're obviously not going to show up with one at a TPWD Reporting Station.

You have to keep in mind that earlier AR's based on points did lead to high-grading in the state of Mississippi. Because points have been the more traditional way to score a rack, it became the first AR approach adopted by the state's Wildlife Commission. Allowing hunters to take bucks with four or more points worked completely backward from the desired goal because it opened the door for hunters to take young deer with the best potential while forcing them to leave the lesser bucks alone. I have to believe it was the failure of Mississippi's Four-point Rule that played at least a partial role in the TPWD adopting rules based on spread. Mississippi has since tossed the Four-point Rule and now follows one based on inside spread or main beam length.

A change in the current TPWD AR's that would allow hunters to take ANY buck with a minimum main beam length might be another way for hunters to take these older deer with tall and narrow racks.

Last edited by Texas Dan; 11/11/19 10:43 PM.

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Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: Texas Dan] #7658958 11/11/19 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
What is most concerning is that if high-grading is slowly happening and hunters are shooting the width out of the herd, the only way the TPWD will become aware of it is through the MDLP. With this being a more limited cross section of the total harvest, you would think the vast majority of these deer with tall and narrow racks are being seen by hunters who have no means to report them. After all, they're obviously not going to show up with one at a TPWD Reporting Station.

You have to keep in mind that earlier AR's based on points did lead to high-grading in the state of Mississippi. Because points have been the more traditional way to score a rack, it became the first AR approach adopted by the state's Wildlife Commission. Allowing hunters to take bucks with four or more points worked completely backward from the desired goal because it opened the door for hunters to take young deer with the best potential while forcing them to leave the lesser bucks alone. I have to believe it was the failure of Mississippi's Four-point Rule that played at least a partial role in the TPWD adopting rules based on spread. Mississippi has since tossed the Four-point Rule and now follows one based on inside spread or main beam length.

A change in the current TPWD AR's that would allow hunters to take ANY buck with a minimum main beam length might be another way for hunters to take these older deer with tall and narrow racks.



Always remember that TPWD started AR's with limited data, in only four counties. There are NO other harvest data since implementation, in any county, of relevant numbers. Some counties were placed under AR's with as few as SIX deer in the data sample for the county.

TPWD own contracted outside scientific review told them it was bad science, lacked relevant data, and had no way to gauge success other than anecdotal references.

Without check stations implemented it will NEVER have real data either way.

Dan is absolutely right about the high grading virtually destroying the herd in Mississippi.



3
Remember an old rancher once said "You get what you breed."

And I've said repeatedly, Ranchers don't routinely eat the herd bulls, and expect it to help the herd.



IF age alone was to help, then it has had 15 years to make a major difference. Taking 3 years off without hunting deer would have a better and faster approach to aging the deer herd.


And allowing the decimation of ANY spike any time in an AR county, is detrimental in counties without vast herds to thin out.


I'd love to see the 2nd spike tag in Foard County.... love it. And AR's wouldn't matter, the bad deer out there are more than 13 inches

Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: flintknapper] #7658966 11/11/19 11:01 PM
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Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: rickt300] #7659041 11/12/19 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by rickt300


Screwm, about time for cowboys and leftist scum anyway! I hunt horns so I can spend more time in the field hunting. Just because you are not a serious hunter does not mean the rest of us have to be like you. Bending over for the leftists is not the way to deal with them, might be what you are used to but I plan on making every one of them uncomfortable as possible.


Well good for you, you hunt horns. Cant you do that without ARs? Wouldn't that still allow you to spend more time in the field? Seems to me that doing away with ARs would be right up your alley. As to the "serious hunt" bs I will put my hunting experience up against you any day. I have taken 94 deer, 25 elk, 17 pronghorn, 3 black bear, 2 bighorn sheep, a mountain goat, 4 bison, countless hogs and have been to Africa 5 times. Can you beat that record? Yeah I didn't think so.

Bottom line, and you may be too blind to see it, hunting has been put on the ballot in several states and it is always the trophy aspect that causes it. ignorance of that fact is dangerous. Hunt horns all you want but talk up the meat part of the equation if you want to prevent the clowns moving in from passing laws that you won't like. I watched them do just that very thing in my native CO. They moved in and we lost our right to trap and most of the bear hunting. By the time we figured out what they were up to the laws were already passed. Read and heed.

Last edited by QMC SW/EXW; 11/12/19 12:24 AM.

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Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: QMC SW/EXW] #7659130 11/12/19 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by QMC SW/EXW
Originally Posted by rickt300


Screwm, about time for cowboys and leftist scum anyway! I hunt horns so I can spend more time in the field hunting. Just because you are not a serious hunter does not mean the rest of us have to be like you. Bending over for the leftists is not the way to deal with them, might be what you are used to but I plan on making every one of them uncomfortable as possible.


Well good for you, you hunt horns. Cant you do that without ARs? Wouldn't that still allow you to spend more time in the field? Seems to me that doing away with ARs would be right up your alley. As to the "serious hunt" bs I will put my hunting experience up against you any day. I have taken 94 deer, 25 elk, 17 pronghorn, 3 black bear, 2 bighorn sheep, a mountain goat, 4 bison, countless hogs and have been to Africa 5 times. Can you beat that record? Yeah I didn't think so.

Bottom line, and you may be too blind to see it, hunting has been put on the ballot in several states and it is always the trophy aspect that causes it. ignorance of that fact is dangerous. Hunt horns all you want but talk up the meat part of the equation if you want to prevent the clowns moving in from passing laws that you won't like. I watched them do just that very thing in my native CO. They moved in and we lost our right to trap and most of the bear hunting. By the time we figured out what they were up to the laws were already passed. Read and heed.



Gentlemen....if you guys want to argue merits and methods....please start your own thread before you get this one locked. Thank You. Flint.


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Re: A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows [Re: TexasKC] #7659213 11/12/19 03:14 AM
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The one if he came to my stand would probably be taking a dirt nap. Don't see those around where I am much.

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