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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: HandgunHTR] #7638394 10/21/19 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by HandgunHTR
As for the comment about tracking deer shot with a .223, I have actually spent more time tracking deer wounded with 30-06s or 7mm Rem Mags than with any of the smaller chamberings.


Let's be honest, that's most likely because those calibers have a much longer legacy of being used to hunt deer.

Still, I agree there's plenty to be said for the fear of excessive recoil being a longstanding culprit of shots gone awry.

Last edited by Texas Dan; 10/21/19 10:37 PM.

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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: Texas Dan] #7638452 10/21/19 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Originally Posted by scalebuster
If you can’t kill a deer with a 223 at a 100 yards sitting in a blind with a rest you shouldn’t be deer hunting.


I would say the same for anyone who hasn't fired at least 50 practice rounds since last season but that's a debate for another day.

I'm sure others are out there thinking I should have added another 50 or so rounds to that number.




I shoot way less than 50 practice rounds a season. Normally less than 5 practice rounds a season. sometimes its zero practice rounds.

Its not hard to shoot a scoped centerfire rifle at normal deer hunting ranges.


Once you have it down you don't have to shoot 2 1/2 boxes of shells a year at targets to become proficient.


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: txtrophy85] #7638497 10/22/19 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Once you have it down you don't have to shoot 2 1/2 boxes of shells a year at targets to become proficient.


"As far as I can tell there are maybe three types of hunters/shooters out there. The one percent that have a natural talent with the long gun, the 98 percent that have to practice, and perhaps the one percent that are just plain lucky."

Watching the reactions of those within that 98% group who refuse to practice can be very entertaining...




Last edited by Texas Dan; 10/22/19 12:12 AM.

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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: Texas Dan] #7638582 10/22/19 01:14 AM
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We have come up with an interesting way to settle this debate both within our group and at the deer lease.

The last time we had this debate come up, we decided that if the 223 shooter could shoot 10 out of 10 in a 3" circle at 100 yards, taking up to 15 minutes to do it, he could take it to the stand. If not, break out a more traditional hunting caliber.

As they say, placement.......

I made the same challenge when the beer got too much and guys started claiming they could kill a deer at 400 yards - I bet them $100 they can't hit 10 out of 10 into a 6" target at 400 yards with whatever gun they want to use. I have only had 2 guys take me up on it and they both lost.

Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: TXRobTRX] #7638620 10/22/19 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by TXRobTRX
We have come up with an interesting way to settle this debate both within our group and at the deer lease.

The last time we had this debate come up, we decided that if the 223 shooter could shoot 10 out of 10 in a 3" circle at 100 yards, taking up to 15 minutes to do it, he could take it to the stand. If not, break out a more traditional hunting caliber.

As they say, placement.......

I made the same challenge when the beer got too much and guys started claiming they could kill a deer at 400 yards - I bet them $100 they can't hit 10 out of 10 into a 6" target at 400 yards with whatever gun they want to use. I have only had 2 guys take me up on it and they both lost.


Thanks for sharing.

The intention of my OP wasn't to throw stones or make light of anyone, but to remind us our egos can sometimes write checks our bodies cannot cash.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: Texas Dan] #7638635 10/22/19 01:56 AM
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I've been doing this for a couple of years now (like 50), and have taken Texas whitetail with, if memory serves, 13 calibers (from .218 Bee to .416 Rigby).

I've lost precisely ONE deer in all that time. Happened to be with a .223. I took a marginal shot and was rewarded with a marginal hit (imagine that!). A cartridge with more a$$ in it's britches would have solved that particular problem, but the fault was mine...NOT the cartridge.

It truly doesn't take that much to kill these deer. Place a decently constructed bullet into something closely approaching the right spot and everything will likely work out fine.

If it's legal and you can hit with it, take it hunting. If you can't hit with it, well...there's always golf. Or mahjong.

Mark

Last edited by 218 Bee; 10/22/19 01:59 AM.

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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: Texas Dan] #7638702 10/22/19 02:59 AM
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How does a .218 work on whitetail?

I have a buddy who for years used a .222 and only shot for the neck.

I think since then he has gotten a more mid range caliber.


I’m in the middle on hinting guns. I’ve killed a pile of deer with a .22-250 but IMO it’s a niche gun not a general hunting rifle. I don’t break out the .300 on whitetails either. I like a good sporter rifle in .270, 7mm-08, .308, 6.5 CM and the like for general hunting. I will admit however that a hot-rod like a .257 wby is a lot of fun


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: Texas Dan] #7638710 10/22/19 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Once you have it down you don't have to shoot 2 1/2 boxes of shells a year at targets to become proficient.


"As far as I can tell there are maybe three types of hunters/shooters out there. The one percent that have a natural talent with the long gun, the 98 percent that have to practice, and perhaps the one percent that are just plain lucky."



I agree 100% that getting proficient in handling and shooting a gun is paramount. And practice is always a good idea, however in normal deer hunting scenarios it’s not hard to get ready for that type of shot.

In the field practice, off sticks, in field positions is what really separates the men from the boys. IMO, if you wanna burn shells, once you have confirmed zero get off the bench and shoot from a bipod, sticks and from a sitting field position.


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: txtrophy85] #7638715 10/22/19 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
How does a .218 work on whitetail?

I have a buddy who for years used a .222 and only shot for the neck.

I think since then he has gotten a more mid range caliber.


I’m in the middle on hinting guns. I’ve killed a pile of deer with a .22-250 but IMO it’s a niche gun not a general hunting rifle. I don’t break out the .300 on whitetails either. I like a good sporter rifle in .270, 7mm-08, .308, 6.5 CM and the like for general hunting. I will admit however that a hot-rod like a .257 wby is a lot of fun



I used the .218 when I was a kid and that was what Daddy put in my hands! It works about as well as you'd expect a 46 grain hollow point at 2800 fps to work...keep your shots a) close and b) away from as much bone as possible...

The Triple Deuce used to be a hot ticket for a lot of ranchers in the Hill Country. A bunch of those old Germans knew how to shoot and weren't rattled about seeing a buck in their crosshairs.

I'm happy to hunt with just about anything; I just have to be mindful of limitations. Especially mine! cool

Mark


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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: Texas Dan] #7638733 10/22/19 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Time to heat things up a couple weeks before the general season opener. Besides, maybe the discussion will result in fewer unfriendly confrontations on Opening Day.

Why would someone believe the cartridge on the far right would an acceptable alternative to the one on the far left for harvesting white tailed deer?


Why would someone start a thread like this? But I digress ....

Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: HandgunHTR] #7638782 10/22/19 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by HandgunHTR
I would wager that over 95% of Texas whitetails are killed within 200 yards and I would also bet that most are killed within 100 yards. Conventional wisdom states you only need around 1000 ft-lbs of energy to fully penetrate a whitetails chest cavity with a good expanding bullet. Therefore, with anything more than a 30-30 is pretty much overkill. Why would you spend more money on ammo and deal with increased recoil and blast if you don't have to?


Yes, 1000 ft-lbs is the number most often quoted as the minimum kinetic energy needed to ethically kill a deer. That makes the effective range of the .223, as well as the 30-30, to be no more than 100 yards.

Still, just like those who feel expensive optics are also a must have, there is likely some merit in having a little overkill to account for margin of error.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: Texas Dan] #7639169 10/22/19 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Originally Posted by HandgunHTR
I would wager that over 95% of Texas whitetails are killed within 200 yards and I would also bet that most are killed within 100 yards. Conventional wisdom states you only need around 1000 ft-lbs of energy to fully penetrate a whitetails chest cavity with a good expanding bullet. Therefore, with anything more than a 30-30 is pretty much overkill. Why would you spend more money on ammo and deal with increased recoil and blast if you don't have to?


Yes, 1000 ft-lbs is the number most often quoted as the minimum kinetic energy needed to ethically kill a deer. That makes the effective range of the .223, as well as the 30-30, to be no more than 100 yards.

Still, just like those who feel expensive optics are also a must have, there is likely some merit in having a little overkill to account for margin of error.


I do not really subscribe to the 1000 ft-lbs. Ever notice how the gun scribes often quote it but then some of those same writers will go hunt and kill moose with a 44 mag handgun? A 44 Mg handgun has well under the 2000 ft-lbs they claim is needed for a moose. And under their claims for deer.

Does using a smaller less powerful cartridge limit your choices for distance and shot placement? Of course it does but does that mean if one learns and knows those limits that they are not effective? Heck no. I have killed deer with quite a few "too small" cartridges and never lost one that I have shot at with any of them 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, 223, 25-20, 256 Winchester Mag, 30 Carbine are a few that come to mind.


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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: kmon11] #7639211 10/22/19 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kmon1
Does using a smaller less powerful cartridge limit your choices for distance and shot placement? Of course it does but does that mean if one learns and knows those limits that they are not effective? Heck no. I have killed deer with quite a few "too small" cartridges and never lost one that I have shot at with any of them 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, 223, 25-20, 256 Winchester Mag, 30 Carbine are a few that come to mind.


You have to keep in mind your audience includes those who feel strongly that no more than four or five practice shots, taken sometime between seasons, is all it takes to be proficient with a deer rifle.

Last edited by Texas Dan; 10/22/19 09:32 PM.

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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: Texas Dan] #7639233 10/22/19 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Originally Posted by kmon1
Does using a smaller less powerful cartridge limit your choices for distance and shot placement? Of course it does but does that mean if one learns and knows those limits that they are not effective? Heck no. I have killed deer with quite a few "too small" cartridges and never lost one that I have shot at with any of them 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, 223, 25-20, 256 Winchester Mag, 30 Carbine are a few that come to mind.


You have to keep in mind your audience includes those who feel strongly that no more than four or five practice shots, taken sometime between seasons, is all it takes to be proficient with a deer rifle.


You know, I can't fix the above situation. Folks that feel as you describe above are (in my book) a high probability to put an off-center hole in their quarry REGARDLESS of what caliber they've chosen. And if their fieldcraft skills match their marksmanship, they aren't (unless very lucky) very likely to find their cripple.

I've dealt with enough of these wizards over the years to also know that they've got all the answers and I waste my breath talking to them. All I can do is wish 'em luck, watch which way the head and go the other direction!

Mark


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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: Texas Dan] #7639407 10/23/19 12:51 AM
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One thing I also wonder is people talk about shot placement as though they are not capable of making a less than perfect shot.

I’ve killed a lot of game and I’ve made some questionable shots In my day and probably will again

Last edited by txtrophy85; 10/23/19 12:52 AM.

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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: txtrophy85] #7639456 10/23/19 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
One thing I also wonder is people talk about shot placement as though they are not capable of making a less than perfect shot.

I’ve killed a lot of game and I’ve made some questionable shots In my day and probably will again


Nah, if you’re worth a damn everything is one shot and DRT. Every time. rolleyes


Originally Posted by Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: txtrophy85] #7639457 10/23/19 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
[quote=Texas Dan]
I would say the same for anyone who hasn't fired at least 50 practice rounds since last season but that's a debate for another day.

I'm sure others are out there thinking I should have added another 50 or so rounds to that number.




I shoot way less than 50 practice rounds a season. Normally less than 5 practice rounds a season. sometimes its zero practice rounds.

Its not hard to shoot a scoped centerfire rifle at normal deer hunting ranges.


Once you have it down you don't have to shoot 2 1/2 boxes of shells a year at targets to become proficient.[/quote

Originally Posted by txtrophy85
One thing I also wonder is people talk about shot placement as though they are not capable of making a less than perfect shot.

I’ve killed a lot of game and I’ve made some questionable shots In my day and probably will again


So, you do not see a correlation here?


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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: J.G.] #7639480 10/23/19 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Originally Posted by txtrophy85
[quote=Texas Dan]
I would say the same for anyone who hasn't fired at least 50 practice rounds since last season but that's a debate for another day.

I'm sure others are out there thinking I should have added another 50 or so rounds to that number.




I shoot way less than 50 practice rounds a season. Normally less than 5 practice rounds a season. sometimes its zero practice rounds.

Its not hard to shoot a scoped centerfire rifle at normal deer hunting ranges.


Once you have it down you don't have to shoot 2 1/2 boxes of shells a year at targets to become proficient.[/quote

Originally Posted by txtrophy85
One thing I also wonder is people talk about shot placement as though they are not capable of making a less than perfect shot.

I’ve killed a lot of game and I’ve made some questionable shots In my day and probably will again


So, you do not see a correlation here?


There’s a helluva lot more to getting clean kills in the field than range time.
Range training is kinda like practicing on the CPR dummy. It’s helpful and you’ve got to learn the basics, but beyond that it’s really just fun and games when the andrenaline isn’t up and nothing’s on the line. There is no substitute for being in the field - learning how to put yourself in position for the shot and making it when the chips are down.

“Training is 10%, doing it for real for a long damn time is 90%.”

3 guesses as to who said that. smile


Originally Posted by Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: txtrophy85] #7639485 10/23/19 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Originally Posted by scalebuster
If you can’t kill a deer with a 223 at a 100 yards sitting in a blind with a rest you shouldn’t be deer hunting.


I would say the same for anyone who hasn't fired at least 50 practice rounds since last season but that's a debate for another day.

I'm sure others are out there thinking I should have added another 50 or so rounds to that number.




I shoot way less than 50 practice rounds a season. Normally less than 5 practice rounds a season. sometimes its zero practice rounds.

Its not hard to shoot a scoped centerfire rifle at normal deer hunting ranges.


Once you have it down you don't have to shoot 2 1/2 boxes of shells a year at targets to become proficient.


Originally Posted by txtrophy85
One thing I also wonder is people talk about shot placement as though they are not capable of making a less than perfect shot.

I’ve killed a lot of game and I’ve made some questionable shots In my day and probably will again


I shoot at least 250 rounds through any rifle before I will take it into the field after game. I typically shoot over 2000 rounds per year. I realize that that number doesn't even come close to the numbers that some of the guys who post here are putting up, but for me, with my work schedule, it is a lot.

Also, I have not lost a deer in over 15 years.

Oh, and it isn't due to me being "not capable of making a less than perfect shot". It is that I have absolute understanding of my rifle/load and my ability to shoot it and I take the shots I know I will connect with.

Last edited by HandgunHTR; 10/23/19 01:55 AM.

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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: J.G.] #7639489 10/23/19 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Originally Posted by txtrophy85
[quote=Texas Dan]
I would say the same for anyone who hasn't fired at least 50 practice rounds since last season but that's a debate for another day.

I'm sure others are out there thinking I should have added another 50 or so rounds to that number.




I shoot way less than 50 practice rounds a season. Normally less than 5 practice rounds a season. sometimes its zero practice rounds.

Its not hard to shoot a scoped centerfire rifle at normal deer hunting ranges.


Once you have it down you don't have to shoot 2 1/2 boxes of shells a year at targets to become proficient.[/quote

Originally Posted by txtrophy85
One thing I also wonder is people talk about shot placement as though they are not capable of making a less than perfect shot.

I’ve killed a lot of game and I’ve made some questionable shots In my day and probably will again


So, you do not see a correlation here?



Not really. You can shoot all you want and its certainly helpful to gain skills, but its impossible to accurately mimic actual hunting scenarios.

I can shoot a bow really well and shoot often in my backyard. put three arrows into the end of a soda can easily. and last week I made a less than awesome shot on a deer. So the practice theory goes out the window. adrenaline does really funny things to otherwise normal people


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: txtrophy85] #7639502 10/23/19 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85


Not really. You can shoot all you want and its certainly helpful to gain skills, but its impossible to accurately mimic actual hunting scenarios.

I can shoot a bow really well. put three arrows into the end of a soda can easily. and last week I made a less than awesome shot on a deer. So the practice theory goes out the window. adrenaline does really funny things to otherwise normal people


Bowhunting is SO much harder in the field than in practice than the same division in gun hunting. No amount of drilling a target can prepare you for the buck staring you down at mid-draw.

I'm not certain the same is true with a gun. After enough years it becomes tough to miss even without preseason practice.

Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: HandgunHTR] #7639511 10/23/19 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by HandgunHTR
Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Originally Posted by scalebuster
If you can’t kill a deer with a 223 at a 100 yards sitting in a blind with a rest you shouldn’t be deer hunting.


I would say the same for anyone who hasn't fired at least 50 practice rounds since last season but that's a debate for another day.

I'm sure others are out there thinking I should have added another 50 or so rounds to that number.




I shoot way less than 50 practice rounds a season. Normally less than 5 practice rounds a season. sometimes its zero practice rounds.

Its not hard to shoot a scoped centerfire rifle at normal deer hunting ranges.


Once you have it down you don't have to shoot 2 1/2 boxes of shells a year at targets to become proficient.


Originally Posted by txtrophy85
One thing I also wonder is people talk about shot placement as though they are not capable of making a less than perfect shot.

I’ve killed a lot of game and I’ve made some questionable shots In my day and probably will again


I shoot at least 250 rounds through any rifle before I will take it into the field after game. I typically shoot over 2000 rounds per year. I realize that that number doesn't even come close to the numbers that some of the guys who post here are putting up, but for me, with my work schedule, it is a lot.

Also, I have not lost a deer in over 15 years.

Oh, and it isn't due to me being "not capable of making a less than perfect shot". It is that I have absolute understanding of my rifle/load and my ability to shoot it and I take the shots I know I will connect with.


I’ve had my main big game rifle since I was 15 - I’m 55 now. I’ve taken dozens of deer, dozens of hogs/predators plus pronghorn, elk, moose, bear, mountain sheep, mountain goats over the last 45+ years. I grew up in the woods.

I check my rifle’s zero each year. That’s it. I do know my limitations and don’t take LR shots on game. I prefer to just get closer. I do shoot a fair amount in the field at hogs and predators in the offseason. I prefer hunting to shooting and actually being in the field to being at the range.

Here’s my sight-in target for this year:

[Linked Image]

I haven’t lost a big game animal since I was 17.

I might lose one next week, but it won’t be my rifle’s fault and it won’t be because I need more shooting practice. The most likely culprits would be adrenaline or fatigue.



Originally Posted by Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: txtrophy85] #7639514 10/23/19 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Not really. You can shoot all you want and its certainly helpful to gain skills, but its impossible to accurately mimic actual hunting scenarios.


That is 100% FALSE.


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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: J.G.] #7639515 10/23/19 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Not really. You can shoot all you want and its certainly helpful to gain skills, but its impossible to accurately mimic actual hunting scenarios.


That is 100% FALSE.


No, it’s not.


Originally Posted by Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: A picture is worth a thousand words [Re: TrophySites] #7639547 10/23/19 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by TrophySites
Originally Posted by txtrophy85


Not really. You can shoot all you want and its certainly helpful to gain skills, but its impossible to accurately mimic actual hunting scenarios.

I can shoot a bow really well. put three arrows into the end of a soda can easily. and last week I made a less than awesome shot on a deer. So the practice theory goes out the window. adrenaline does really funny things to otherwise normal people


Bowhunting is SO much harder in the field than in practice than the same division in gun hunting. No amount of drilling a target can prepare you for the buck staring you down at mid-draw.

I'm not certain the same is true with a gun. After enough years it becomes tough to miss even without preseason practice.


That was my original point I was trying to make

But I also stated even with practice you can still duff a shot.


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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