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Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better #7627304 10/08/19 04:55 PM
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Texas Dan Offline OP
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While much time is sometimes spent discussing high-end rifles, scopes, and ammo, there are those who like to remind us that production techniques are so good that even today's low-end equipment performs exceptionally well. Some might even go so far to say that you can find a $350 rifle that is just as accurate as one that costs two or three times as much.

With this being the first cool morning of the season, I just had to make a trip to the range to sling some lead. I decided to take my Savage .243 rifle and scope combo that I picked up at Academy last year as part of the free hunting license offer. If my memory is correct, I spent about $350 for the rifle, scope, and a Super Combo Hunting License. And because I like to compare the performance of different brands of ammo, I took several different factory loads as well.

The target below shows the results using Remington Core Lokt and Winchester Super X ammo, both of which can be had for less than $20 a box. Target distance was 100 yards.

Here's to the guys who don't mind being caught carrying an ugly Savage and that cheap, "green box" ammo. Besides, put a bullet in the right spot and it kills them just as dead.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Texas Dan; 10/08/19 05:00 PM.

"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: Texas Dan] #7627382 10/08/19 06:15 PM
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I agree, but you know that’s the wrong spot, right.

Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: Texas Dan] #7627420 10/08/19 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
While much time is sometimes spent discussing high-end rifles, scopes, and ammo, there are those who like to remind us that production techniques are so good that even today's low-end equipment performs exceptionally well. Some might even go so far to say that you can find a $350 rifle that is just as accurate as one that costs two or three times as much.

With this being the first cool morning of the season, I just had to make a trip to the range to sling some lead. I decided to take my Savage .243 rifle and scope combo that I picked up at Academy last year as part of the free hunting license offer. If my memory is correct, I spent about $350 for the rifle, scope, and a Super Combo Hunting License. And because I like to compare the performance of different brands of ammo, I took several different factory loads as well.

The target below shows the results using Remington Core Lokt and Winchester Super X ammo, both of which can be had for less than $20 a box. Target distance was 100 yards.

Here's to the guys who don't mind being caught carrying an ugly Savage and that cheap, "green box" ammo. Besides, put a bullet in the right spot and it kills them just as dead.

[Linked Image]


I haven't shot at Carter's Country in years.

Nice group. I have watched bone stock Savages outshoot custom rifles many times.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr


"Whitetail Deer are extinct because of rifles with telescopes mounted on them." - My 11th Grade English Teacher
Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: wp75169] #7627452 10/08/19 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by wp75169
I agree, but you know that’s the wrong spot, right.


This was my best grouping of the four (Remington, Winchester, Federal, and Hornady) loads that I shot this morning. Both the Federal and Hornady loads produced hits slightly right and left of center so I saw no need to adjust the windage. The height is about right for a 200 yard zero.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: Texas Dan] #7627455 10/08/19 07:28 PM
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I was just harassing you dan.

Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: Texas Dan] #7627466 10/08/19 07:46 PM
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Some of todays cheapo factory rifles shoot a lot better than what they cost.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: wp75169] #7627483 10/08/19 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by wp75169
I was just harassing you dan.


It was a good point because I've noticed how some loads will produce hits to the right and left of center while others stay on one side in the same rife and scope setting. I have no idea why but I've seen it with most if not every caliber I shoot.

Perhaps one of our more knowledgeable gunsmiths and/or reloaders will offer an explanation for it. And if there is a reason, other than shooter variance, I would bet it's worth knowing. No question ballistics is a science that runs wide and deep.

A quick search found an interesting thread in one of the shooter forums where the issue is discussed at length with many good observations being shared. No question it's something that can be often seen during a day at the range.

Why some bullets hit to the right or left when others don't

Last edited by Texas Dan; 10/08/19 08:21 PM.

"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: Texas Dan] #7627562 10/08/19 09:30 PM
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Ammo has come a long way in the last decade or so.

Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: Texas Dan] #7627670 10/08/19 11:44 PM
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And custom ammo does even mo' betta. bolt



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Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: Texas Dan] #7627835 10/09/19 02:33 AM
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Great shooting Dan.
I own a TC and Savage Axis. Both are great shooters. The Savage isn't much to look at but I'm not either.

Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: llbts1] #7627853 10/09/19 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by llbts1
Great shooting Dan.
I own a TC and Savage Axis. Both are great shooters. The Savage isn't much to look at but I'm not either.


Maybe that's why we don't mind owning ugly rifles. They match our looks.

Thanks.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: Texas Dan] #7629757 10/11/19 05:01 AM
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I am prefacing this by stating that I am just a shooter, not a manufacturer, but.

In my PERSONAL experience, I do not agree that today's rifles are better. Matter of fact I would argue the opposite. I think factory ammunition and reloading components have positively developed while rifle manufacturing has gone downhill. I believe this is why most folks discount granddads model 70 30-06 before even firing it.

Commonly, 2 inch groups were the norm, and the ammunition manufactures did not seem to care about precision. I think if you took grandpappy's old Win or Rem out to task with modern day handloads or even modern factory match ammo you would change your mind. Hell, just cycle a 30 year old Remington 700 action and pull the trigger and compare it to what you can get from a big box store. I would bet if you were blindfolded you would take the old one over the new one every day,

Now, I am not right of course, I just have an opinion. It's worth what it cost you. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything other than keeping an open mind.

I have yet to find a rifle that I could not get to shoot with handloading. Take that for what it is worth,


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Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: Texas Dan] #7629909 10/11/19 02:49 PM
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CSD, I would agree! A few years ago I did a load work up for 4 guys all on the same deer lease. They were having a "who shoots the tightest group" contest before deer season. I did a load work up on about 6 or 7 of their rifles. One of the guys had a 1970's model Rem 700 in 30-06 (funny you mentioned the same rifle). His older gun with standard wood stock shot groups in the .2's at 100 yards and a little over 1/2" at 200 yards. He won the contest. The other guys had some high end factory rifles that shot easy half moa and some sub half moa, but not as tight at the older rifle. I have seen this on several occasions. I would not hesitate to purchase an older Rem 1970's model rifle.

Also, the guys who started ADG brass (Atlas Dev Group) all worked at Remington. I spoke to them in length about this. They left Rem to start their company. The main reason he said was the lower quality expectations that Remington wanted. They would purposely make a lower quality product to increase profits. They (the ADG guys who worked at Remington) would try to do things to make a better product but were told often that it increased cost or increased the time to make it. They were intentionally trying to not make a better product to keep up profits on all aspects of production. I think this is happening more and more these days with the bigger companies.



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Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: Texas Dan] #7629935 10/11/19 03:14 PM
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Quality may have multiple perceived meanings.

To some the pretty hard wood stock and shiny bluing rugged gun is quality.

To another a synthetic stock matt finish.

With results like FiremanJG had with the low cost ruger on one of his last posts, the savage axis, and the tc rifles are having I don't think it is hard to make an argument that very reasonably priced rifles that shoot as good or better than many of yesteryear did abound.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: redchevy] #7629954 10/11/19 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by redchevy
Quality may have multiple perceived meanings.

To some the pretty hard wood stock and shiny bluing rugged gun is quality.

To another a synthetic stock matt finish.

With results like FiremanJG had with the low cost ruger on one of his last posts, the savage axis, and the tc rifles are having I don't think it is hard to make an argument that very reasonably priced rifles that shoot as good or better than many of yesteryear did abound.


Much of it is about the ammo. Nearly every gun out there is going to be consistent shot to shot unless something is loose or you heat it up. By that I mean the barrel is the same (even if there's a burr, etc., it's there for every shot), the chamber measures the same, the stock and trigger are the same. You should be able to tune a load that will work at least under 1.5" if not better. Yes there will be a few outliers that shoot 4" no matter what but those have big mfg flaws and should be sent back.


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Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: Texas Dan] #7629969 10/11/19 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas Dan
While much time is sometimes spent discussing high-end rifles, scopes, and ammo, there are those who like to remind us that production techniques are so good that even today's low-end equipment performs exceptionally well. Some might even go so far to say that you can find a $350 rifle that is just as accurate as one that costs two or three times as much.

With this being the first cool morning of the season, I just had to make a trip to the range to sling some lead. I decided to take my Savage .243 rifle and scope combo that I picked up at Academy last year as part of the free hunting license offer. If my memory is correct, I spent about $350 for the rifle, scope, and a Super Combo Hunting License. And because I like to compare the performance of different brands of ammo, I took several different factory loads as well.

The target below shows the results using Remington Core Lokt and Winchester Super X ammo, both of which can be had for less than $20 a box. Target distance was 100 yards.

Here's to the guys who don't mind being caught carrying an ugly Savage and that cheap, "green box" ammo. Besides, put a bullet in the right spot and it kills them just as dead.

[Linked Image]

the above results is what I have been saying for "well a long time"


hold on Newt, we got a runaway
Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: ChadTRG42] #7629975 10/11/19 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ChadTRG42
CSD, I would agree! A few years ago I did a load work up for 4 guys all on the same deer lease. They were having a "who shoots the tightest group" contest before deer season. I did a load work up on about 6 or 7 of their rifles. One of the guys had a 1970's model Rem 700 in 30-06 (funny you mentioned the same rifle). His older gun with standard wood stock shot groups in the .2's at 100 yards and a little over 1/2" at 200 yards. He won the contest. The other guys had some high end factory rifles that shot easy half moa and some sub half moa, but not as tight at the older rifle. I have seen this on several occasions. I would not hesitate to purchase an older Rem 1970's model rifle.

Also, the guys who started ADG brass (Atlas Dev Group) all worked at Remington. I spoke to them in length about this. They left Rem to start their company. The main reason he said was the lower quality expectations that Remington wanted. They would purposely make a lower quality product to increase profits. They (the ADG guys who worked at Remington) would try to do things to make a better product but were told often that it increased cost or increased the time to make it. They were intentionally trying to not make a better product to keep up profits on all aspects of production. I think this is happening more and more these days with the bigger companies.

What we'll never see are proprietary designs (machine drawings) with revision dates that include tolerances. One way to decrease cost on any machined product is to increase production without an increase in investment. Open up tolerances, you can run faster, and lower your AQL (acceptable quality level). Companies that are running on newer machines are at an advantage. Those machines can hold tighter tolerances and still run fast.


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Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: Texas Dan] #7629979 10/11/19 04:12 PM
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I bought a brand new TC Venture in 30-06 almost a year ago. I never fired a factory round through it. The absolute worst groups I got were just over an inch, and the load I settled on shot right at a half inch. I ended up selling it after the bolt stop broke (cheap pot metal) and it took TC three months to get me a replacement—and they still charged me for a part for a rifle that was 6 months old. Did it shoot? You bet. But the whole situation with the bolt stop just pi$$ed me off enough to not want the rifle anymore.

I also a a very early production Ruger American in 270 that I couldn’t ever get under 1.5” with.

I’m now using a 20 year old 700 that I got at a pawn shop for $150. I swapped the trigger for a timney and don’t see this one going anywhere anytime soon.

I think barrels and lock time are probably better on new rifles. Stocks and small parts have gone downhill IMO.


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Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: Texas Dan] #7630019 10/11/19 05:11 PM
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With the advent of synthetic stocks I think for repeatability they have gotten better. Ive never had an issue with any of the synthetic stocks I have, not eve the cheap ones. Although the first thing 90% of people do is curse them without shooting them because they are cheap crap and put something else on that they cant see an improvement with because they never shot it the way they came.

I want to know what pawn shop sells 700's for $150, I got money to spend.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: redchevy] #7630054 10/11/19 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by redchevy
With the advent of synthetic stocks I think for repeatability they have gotten better. Ive never had an issue with any of the synthetic stocks I have, not eve the cheap ones. Although the first thing 90% of people do is curse them without shooting them because they are cheap crap and put something else on that they cant see an improvement with because they never shot it the way they came.

I want to know what pawn shop sells 700's for $150, I got money to spend.


EZ Pawn on North 1st in Abilene, TX. It might be a Fuddy ought six though
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Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: Texas Dan] #7631213 10/13/19 08:37 AM
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remingtons made in china gun shoots better than remingtons made in usa gun



Re: Today's factory rifles and ammo have never performed better [Re: vanguard] #7632893 10/15/19 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by vanguard
remingtons made in china gun shoots better than remingtons made in usa gun

Originally Posted by vanguard
remingtons made in china gun shoots better than remingtons made in usa gun


Surely you jest.


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