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Dove season opener/Opinions needed #7599220 09/06/19 12:53 AM
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Roo Offline OP
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To start off I was issued a citation this past weekend for "Hunting dove with aid of vehicle." I don't think I was in the wrong but I wanted to get some of your guys opinions and if you had any information that could clarify this situation any better, it would be greatly appreciated.

To set the scene, My brother-in-law, myself, and a friend were hunting in said field (partially plowed field with wild sunflowers). My brother-in-law decided to walk to the other end of field, some 500 to 600 yards and hunt on the north end of field. My friend and I were hunting on southwest side of field where we had parked the pickup whenever we first arrived at field. After watching where the majority of birds were flying over field, over by where my brother-in-law was, we decided to drive pickup to north end of field instead of walking to north end and then having to walk back to truck. We arrived at north end of field about 75 yards from where my brother-in-law was and I killed the truck, maybe 3-5 seconds after we pulled up my brother-in-law was yelling "Dove!" Alerting us that there was a dove flying towards us about to fly over us flying from north to south. This dove came from the north of us from the pasture (mesquite trees and cedar trees) so there is no question that we did not flush this bird. My friend and I step out of the truck, myself on the driver side probably two to three steps from truck, and I raise my gun but never fire a round at said bird. My friend steps out and walks towards front of truck where he fires two shots over front end of truck (bird flys off). Shortly after a game warden comes from south end of field and while walking up says "That was your one unlucky dove." I thought he was just saying that because the bird was still flying, to which I said, " That's not the first one." He replied "Don't tell me that," and I didn't understand why. I thought he was just talking about our lousy shooting or lack thereof, but instead he issues us a citation for "hunting dove with aid of vehicle."

I could understand getting a citation if we were shooting out of the vehicle or using the vehicle to flush birds but all we did was get out of the vehicle and start hunting.

This is my first citation regarding hunting and would just like some clarification.

I have read the laws in the Outdoor manual as well as on the U.S. fish and wildlife service where the law states:

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Motorized vehicles. You cannot hunt migratory game birds from or by means, aid, or use of any motor vehicle, motor-driven land conveyance, or aircraft (if you are a paraplegic or are missing one or both legs, you may hunt from a stationary car or other stationary motor-driven land vehicle or conveyance).

Outdoor Annual
It is UNLAWFUL to: hunt from or by means of motor vehicles or aircraft of any kind (including stationary) except paraplegics and single or double amputees of legs may hunt from stationary motor-driven conveyances;
use motor-driven land, water or air conveyances or sailboats to concentrate, drive, rally or stir up any migratory game bird;


I don't understand how what we did would be any different then if you just arrived at your field, hunting lease, etc., and stepped out of the vehicle and began hunting.

Any comments would be appreciated and if you know of anyone that has ran into this before feel free to post.

Thanks

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7599228 09/06/19 01:09 AM
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Please don't look for legal advice on the internet. Please consult an attorney.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr


"Whitetail Deer are extinct because of rifles with telescopes mounted on them." - My 11th Grade English Teacher
Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7599235 09/06/19 01:20 AM
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sounds like he may have been watching you for some time

standing outside the box and looking in, not hard to understand

personally I do kind of question the need for a citation and not a warning,

always two sides to every thing

chalk it up as lesson learned


Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting.......holy kaka.....What a Ride!
Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7599240 09/06/19 01:24 AM
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Sounds like a BS citation to me.

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7599251 09/06/19 01:41 AM
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No idea on legality, but think you raise a valid question on when, after exiting a vehicle, is it no longer an infraction. 30 seconds? A minute? 10? IMHO - it seems that once a hunter is no longer in contact with the MV/ATV/UTV it is no longer providing aid, if in fact it was not originally being used to flush birds from the field. Maybe he simply didn't like y'alls looks?


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Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7599266 09/06/19 01:54 AM
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That sounds like you could argue that pretty easy

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7599296 09/06/19 02:22 AM
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I think if you unload, drive the truck to wherever you are going, and then reload after you stop, there’s no arguing it. By your description it sounded like you just stepped out and started shooting and that’s what he did not like.

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Heisman25g] #7599303 09/06/19 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Heisman25g
I think if you unload, drive the truck to wherever you are going, and then reload after you stop, there’s no arguing it. By your description it sounded like you just stepped out and started shooting and that’s what he did not like.


As opposed to doing what? If you aren't stirring birds up or sitting on the tailgate what is the infraction?

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7599322 09/06/19 02:48 AM
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As I read it, they got out of the truck and started shooting. Maybe that is what he didn’t like. I’m just thinking out loud here, but if you get out and then load up and then start shooting, it can’t even be argued that the vehicle aided you.

I’m just trying to figure out what the GW didn’t like. Def sounds like a tough ticket

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7599333 09/06/19 03:00 AM
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Roo, if you are in Wilbarger County as stated in your profile...check with a man by the name of Hardage who lives just North of town. He will be happy to point you in the direction of an attorney and share his tell of going to court. For the past number of years he took out an ad in the newspaper on the dove opener just to jab at the game wardens.

If it is as you say, you may do okay in court. However, there's always three sides to every story so I look forward to hearing the outcome.

Good luck to all involved.


Searching the world over for the perfect Chile Relleno.
Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: HOF] #7599351 09/06/19 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by HOF
Roo, if you are in Wilbarger County as stated in your profile...check with a man by the name of Hardage who lives just North of town. He will be happy to point you in the direction of an attorney and share his tell of going to court. For the past number of years he took out an ad in the newspaper on the dove opener just to jab at the game wardens.

If it is as you say, you may do okay in court. However, there's always three sides to every story so I look forward to hearing the outcome.

Good luck to all involved.


Luckily the 3rd side flew away. grin

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7599391 09/06/19 06:51 AM
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First I assume this was not a public field you were driving across or it would be obvious. Looking at the outdoor annual which is just a summary of the code it states two things. "hunt from or by means of motor vehicles....." and "use motor-driven land, water or air conveyances or sailboats to concentrate, drive, rally or stir up any migratory game bird". If your citation reads with aid rather than from, it is probably the "by means" or "stir up" part that is the reason not because he thought you were shooting from the truck or if he saw you hunting from a tailgate. Though it may not have been your intention, intent likely does not matter. What the Warden saw probably looked like the truck is what got the bird that was shot to fly for you or your hunting partners. That citation would be more common with someone using a boat to rally waterfowl.

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Sniper John] #7599458 09/06/19 12:48 PM
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It’s definitely the “stir up” part. I
Originally Posted by Sniper John
First I assume this was not a public field you were driving across or it would be obvious. Looking at the outdoor annual which is just a summary of the code it states two things. "hunt from or by means of motor vehicles....." and "use motor-driven land, water or air conveyances or sailboats to concentrate, drive, rally or stir up any migratory game bird". If your citation reads with aid rather than from, it is probably the "by means" or "stir up" part that is the reason not because he thought you were shooting from the truck or if he saw you hunting from a tailgate. Though it may not have been your intention, intent likely does not matter.

I would think intent would matter. That is the spirit of the regulation, to stop those purposely trying to stir up birds. I’m mean the field I hunted last weekend was huge, had tons of hunters and trucks in it, trucks constantly coming and going all morning, Am I suppose to stop shooting and wait till field has no trucks driving around? Even the GW spent all morning driving around checking hunters kicking up birds.

Heck when you are duck hunting, 9 o’clock mallards are from other boats kicking up birds headed back to the ramp. Are you suppose to stop shooting in these situations?

I understand “intent” is not in the reg, they purposely leave that out or attorneys would game that, but a GW writing a citation without seeing intent is BS.

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7599479 09/06/19 01:28 PM
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When you go on a guided hunts, the helpers will circle the field bringing water and snacks to the clients. The GW are there or know there is a hunt taking place and it is no issue then... Probably been on 20 of these corporate style hunts and no tickets given unless another law was broken. And they do scare up birds if they are in the path on the outside perimeter. Did you drive through the middle of the field ever?

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Txduckman] #7599510 09/06/19 02:24 PM
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Txduckman besides when I parked the truck the only time I drove in field was to drive around sunflowers, you couldn’t drive on the edge of the field on part of it because it is grown up with brush so you had to drive in field.

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7599531 09/06/19 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Roo
Txduckman besides when I parked the truck the only time I drove in field was to drive around sunflowers, you couldn’t drive on the edge of the field on part of it because it is grown up with brush so you had to drive in field.


He probably didn't like you driving through them, so depending on his vantage point he probably assumed you jumped those birds out of the field.

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7599539 09/06/19 02:54 PM
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ask for a court date and explain your circumstances.. I would think that if you stopped...turned off the truck... had to load the guns..walk out in front of truck...and shot a bird that not using a vehicle...Ive seen guys drinking beer on a parked truck....truck off..sitting on tail gate shooting birds get tickets...I guess it all up to the judge interpretation....

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7599677 09/06/19 05:45 PM
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First remember this ticket is just a "money grab" citation....the government needs the revenue.

I'd fight it in court and let the judge know I am never paying the ticket based on ethics/values....I did not do anything wrong. He/she will probably dismiss it.

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Guy] #7599700 09/06/19 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Guy
It’s definitely the “stir up” part. I
Originally Posted by Sniper John
First I assume this was not a public field you were driving across or it would be obvious. Looking at the outdoor annual which is just a summary of the code it states two things. "hunt from or by means of motor vehicles....." and "use motor-driven land, water or air conveyances or sailboats to concentrate, drive, rally or stir up any migratory game bird". If your citation reads with aid rather than from, it is probably the "by means" or "stir up" part that is the reason not because he thought you were shooting from the truck or if he saw you hunting from a tailgate. Though it may not have been your intention, intent likely does not matter.

I would think intent would matter. That is the spirit of the regulation, to stop those purposely trying to stir up birds. I’m mean the field I hunted last weekend was huge, had tons of hunters and trucks in it, trucks constantly coming and going all morning, Am I suppose to stop shooting and wait till field has no trucks driving around? Even the GW spent all morning driving around checking hunters kicking up birds.

Heck when you are duck hunting, 9 o’clock mallards are from other boats kicking up birds headed back to the ramp. Are you suppose to stop shooting in these situations?

I understand “intent” is not in the reg, they purposely leave that out or attorneys would game that, but a GW writing a citation without seeing intent is BS.



I agree, but your reading too much into me using the word intent. When it is done on purpose and cited for, realize more often than not the GW and judge will hear something like is "My intent was not to stir up birds" for my hunting partner, clients, etc. I just happened to be driving across the field or lake at the time". If you Dove hunt over a baited field that you did not know was baited you obviously did not intend to hunt a baited field. Not knowing it was baited will not work as a defense. If you accidentally shoot a blue shouldered Shoveler during Teal season and the game warden sees it, your lack of intent is not going to work as a defense either. Despite intent if it looks like it was intentional to the GW, that defense is just not going to work very often. The poster said his intent was not to stir up birds and did not feel the bird shot was stirred up by his truck and I have no reason not to believe him, but I predict the JP will side with what the GW saw or thinks he saw. It's a tough break.

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: BDB] #7599868 09/06/19 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BDB
First remember this ticket is just a "money grab" citation....the government needs the revenue.

I'd fight it in court and let the judge know I am never paying the ticket based on ethics/values....I did not do anything wrong. He/she will probably dismiss it.

Good luck with that if it ever happens to you.


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Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7599872 09/06/19 09:39 PM
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Roo I didn't review the law (*the actual law) but if you choose to go to court you can ask the judge to dismiss. Tell your side of the story. If the judge asks the GW if that's how he saw it and the GW says yes, then the judge might just dismiss. Your other option is to just pay the fine.

Remember how much you paid for my legal advise LOL


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Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: decook] #7599873 09/06/19 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by decook
Originally Posted by BDB
First remember this ticket is just a "money grab" citation....the government needs the revenue.

I'd fight it in court and let the judge know I am never paying the ticket based on ethics/values....I did not do anything wrong. He/she will probably dismiss it.

Good luck with that if it ever happens to you.


If you with not paying a citation from a GW are you able to get a hunting license the following year? Kind of like in college when you have unpaid parking tickets from on campus you can't register for classes in the upcoming semester.

Last edited by Herbie Hancock; 09/06/19 09:42 PM.
Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: BDB] #7600135 09/07/19 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by BDB
First remember this ticket is just a "money grab" citation....the government needs the revenue.

I'd fight it in court and let the judge know I am never paying the ticket based on ethics/values....I did not do anything wrong. He/she will probably dismiss it.

I would not recommend going before a judge to explain that you do not intend to respect the law based on your personal ethics. Not likely a winning strategy.

Re: Dove season opener/Opinions needed [Re: Roo] #7600152 09/07/19 03:32 AM
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I think Sniper John hit it right with the comparison to a boat jumping ducks. You can't drive your boat into a raft of ducks and start blasting. If you are motoring, forward motion from the motor has to stop before you can shoot.
Commenters keep mentioning loading guns. The OP didn't mention loading guns. If the passenger was riding in the truck with a loaded gun, jumped out as soon as it stopped, and shot over the hood, I could understand that being a ticket.
Commenters keep mentioning other trucks. But it is one thing if someone drives their truck in the field and flushes doves that then fly toward other hunters. It is a very different thing if YOU drive a truck through a field, flush a dove, and then YOU shoot at it from right next to the truck. I know. OP says he didn't flush the bird. But probably the warden couldn't see that. The warden saw a truck driving, a guy jump out, shots fired. Ticket.
The miscommunication is sad, unfortunate. But I never joke with game wardens, and I never assume I know what they mean if it is ambiguous. If a warden said "That was one lucky dove," I would reply: "I'm sorry, officer, I don't know what you mean."
I would appear before the judge with a polite, respectful explanation of what happened. Explain your situation clearly. I could see it getting dismissed.

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