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force fetch #7598831 09/05/19 04:49 PM
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I am looking for some training advice which I know is hard to do without a lot of background, but I am really either looking for either some encouragement that this has happened to others or maybe some general just try this.

I am just starting to work on force fetch and am following Freddy King. I have gone through hold and that has gone well and am now on to the ear pinch, which is where I am having some trouble, and am looking for advice. When I do the ear pinch my dog thinks we are playing (wrestling which she loves) more than getting the idea that it is pressure to do something. Has anyone else seen this, do I need to just stick with it and keep repeating the process, or do I need to try and change tactics?

Re: force fetch [Re: stnxfalk2] #7598841 09/05/19 05:03 PM
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Does your dog understand pressure on and pressure off? Ie compliance turns off pressure?

Re: force fetch [Re: stnxfalk2] #7598870 09/05/19 05:32 PM
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I preferred the toe hitch on my last two. Worked fine for mr.

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Re: force fetch [Re: stnxfalk2] #7598942 09/05/19 06:38 PM
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agree... try a toe loop. She won't think you are playing.

Re: force fetch [Re: stnxfalk2] #7599009 09/05/19 08:12 PM
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First off make sure obedience is solid.

You should be able to touch and pet your dog without her moving around.

Then when you've got that down and "hold" down you move to ear pinch.

So you should have a dog that will sit calmly and hold a bumper as you touch them and grab the ear.

The ONLY thing no matter what she does that releases pressure is the bumper in the mouth.

I don't care if she does five back flips you do not let go of the ear until the bumper is in the mouth.

"Sit"
Grab collar and ear
Pinch ear
"Fetch"
Get the Bumper in her mouth
Release pinch
"Good!" "Good!"
"Hold"
Pet and praise for good hold and especially when she starts to reach for and grab it.

Repeat

Remember you aren't teaching your dog to fetch on command with FF. You can teach a dog to fetch on command without FF. FF is teaching your dog how to learn from and respond appropriately to pressure.

Last edited by BradyBuck; 09/05/19 08:24 PM.
Re: force fetch [Re: stnxfalk2] #7599201 09/06/19 12:22 AM
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Toe hitch .. never had luck with ear pinch

Re: force fetch [Re: stnxfalk2] #7599314 09/06/19 02:42 AM
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I assume your dog is a retriever since you are following Freddy?

How many recommending toe hitch use it on Labradors?

Toe hitch is fine but ear pinch is used by 99% of retriever trainers including the best in the business.

Re: force fetch [Re: BradyBuck] #7599343 09/06/19 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by BradyBuck
I assume your dog is a retriever since you are following Freddy?

How many recommending toe hitch use it on Labradors?

Toe hitch is fine but ear pinch is used by 99% of retriever trainers including the best in the business.


My sweet Molly was a an incredible lab and I watched as a professional trainer here in DFW put her on a table, attach her to a cable and used a toe loop to FF her. Now this was probably 10 years ago, but that table is still at his facility because I saw it a few months back when I bought my new pup from him, so I assume he still uses it. Not sure if he still uses toe hitch or collar or ear pinch or what... maybe all 3... maybe it “depends”... but he used to for sure. I’m training this lab myself, but told him I’d prefer him to do the FF instead of me since I’m no expert and don’t want the dog to hate me.

As far as the “best in the business”...I don’t know about that. He has over 1250 AKC Hunt Test Titles including 268 AKC Master Hunter titles. He has qualified 80 dogs for the Master Nationals since 2000 and has placed 10 dogs in the Hall of Fame. I’d guess he probably ranks up there pretty high as one of the best in the business. He’s one heck of a good guy too!


Re: force fetch [Re: Greg] #7599373 09/06/19 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Greg
Originally Posted by BradyBuck
I assume your dog is a retriever since you are following Freddy?

How many recommending toe hitch use it on Labradors?

Toe hitch is fine but ear pinch is used by 99% of retriever trainers including the best in the business.


My sweet Molly was a an incredible lab and I watched as a professional trainer here in DFW put her on a table, attach her to a cable and used a toe loop to FF her. Now this was probably 10 years ago, but that table is still at his facility because I saw it a few months back when I bought my new pup from him, so I assume he still uses it. Not sure if he still uses toe hitch or collar or ear pinch or what... maybe all 3... maybe it “depends”... but he used to for sure. I’m training this lab myself, but told him I’d prefer him to do the FF instead of me since I’m no expert and don’t want the dog to hate me.

As far as the “best in the business”...I don’t know about that. He has over 1250 AKC Hunt Test Titles including 268 AKC Master Hunter titles. He has qualified 80 dogs for the Master Nationals since 2000 and has placed 10 dogs in the Hall of Fame. I’d guess he probably ranks up there pretty high as one of the best in the business. He’s one heck of a good guy too!


Your guy is really banking. At 268 master titles in 10 years, that's roughly 27 new master dogs per year. Not counting the ones from the previous year/s that he would have on his truck.

All BS aside, most pros use a table to ff, because its easier on the back. Most do not use a toe hitch anymore as dogs are more sensitive, and smarter than they used to be.

The best thing to do is get a pro to ff the dog, or watch one do it. Watching a video doesnt give you a good read on what the dog is doing and the amount of pressure needed to accomplish the task.

Robby

Re: force fetch [Re: Birdhunter61] #7599380 09/06/19 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Birdhunter61
Originally Posted by Greg
Originally Posted by BradyBuck
I assume your dog is a retriever since you are following Freddy?

How many recommending toe hitch use it on Labradors?

Toe hitch is fine but ear pinch is used by 99% of retriever trainers including the best in the business.


My sweet Molly was a an incredible lab and I watched as a professional trainer here in DFW put her on a table, attach her to a cable and used a toe loop to FF her. Now this was probably 10 years ago, but that table is still at his facility because I saw it a few months back when I bought my new pup from him, so I assume he still uses it. Not sure if he still uses toe hitch or collar or ear pinch or what... maybe all 3... maybe it “depends”... but he used to for sure. I’m training this lab myself, but told him I’d prefer him to do the FF instead of me since I’m no expert and don’t want the dog to hate me.

As far as the “best in the business”...I don’t know about that. He has over 1250 AKC Hunt Test Titles including 268 AKC Master Hunter titles. He has qualified 80 dogs for the Master Nationals since 2000 and has placed 10 dogs in the Hall of Fame. I’d guess he probably ranks up there pretty high as one of the best in the business. He’s one heck of a good guy too!


Your guy is really banking. At 268 master titles in 10 years, that's roughly 27 new master dogs per year. Not counting the ones from the previous year/s that he would have on his truck.

All BS aside, most pros use a table to ff, because its easier on the back. Most do not use a toe hitch anymore as dogs are more sensitive, and smarter than they used to be.

The best thing to do is get a pro to ff the dog, or watch one do it. Watching a video doesnt give you a good read on what the dog is doing and the amount of pressure needed to accomplish the task.

Robby


No BS.
His name is Dan Kielty and he owns marks-a-lot kennels. http://www.marksalot.com/
If you have run dogs in the area I’m sure you probably know him. Those numbers are straight from his website but since these things are recorded you should be able to confirm it if you want to. Let me know what you find out. Not sure if he is banking or not but he sure has one heck of a facility and he wins a lot of ribbons.

Re: force fetch [Re: stnxfalk2] #7599382 09/06/19 04:29 AM
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Yes, I know Dan K., and know those numbers are for longer than 10 yrs.

Robby

Re: force fetch [Re: stnxfalk2] #7599383 09/06/19 04:32 AM
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You mis read my post... I said he trained my dog about 10 years ago.

And I’m curious, Robby, what do you think has made dogs more sensitive and smarter in the last 10 years?

Re: force fetch [Re: stnxfalk2] #7599400 09/06/19 10:12 AM
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Plain and simple - breeding.

Training methods have evolved because of this as well.

Robby

Re: force fetch [Re: stnxfalk2] #7599428 09/06/19 11:40 AM
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Take a break from force fetch to shore up your obedience first. Things should go a bit smoother after that.

Last edited by Smokey Bear; 09/06/19 11:41 AM.

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Re: force fetch [Re: Greg] #7599430 09/06/19 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Greg
Originally Posted by BradyBuck
I assume your dog is a retriever since you are following Freddy?

How many recommending toe hitch use it on Labradors?

Toe hitch is fine but ear pinch is used by 99% of retriever trainers including the best in the business.


My sweet Molly was a an incredible lab and I watched as a professional trainer here in DFW put her on a table, attach her to a cable and used a toe loop to FF her. Now this was probably 10 years ago, but that table is still at his facility because I saw it a few months back when I bought my new pup from him, so I assume he still uses it. Not sure if he still uses toe hitch or collar or ear pinch or what... maybe all 3... maybe it “depends”... but he used to for sure. I’m training this lab myself, but told him I’d prefer him to do the FF instead of me since I’m no expert and don’t want the dog to hate me.

As far as the “best in the business”...I don’t know about that. He has over 1250 AKC Hunt Test Titles including 268 AKC Master Hunter titles. He has qualified 80 dogs for the Master Nationals since 2000 and has placed 10 dogs in the Hall of Fame. I’d guess he probably ranks up there pretty high as one of the best in the business. He’s one heck of a good guy too!




I guess I should start listing off all the big time pros with better stats that use ear pinch but that's not the point.

But just because, I'll drop the names Lardy and Farmer...

The point is that the OPs problem isn't going to be solved by simply going to the toe hitch which I believe will actually be more difficult for him.

Last edited by BradyBuck; 09/06/19 12:19 PM.
Re: force fetch [Re: BradyBuck] #7599452 09/06/19 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BradyBuck
Originally Posted by Greg
Originally Posted by BradyBuck
I assume your dog is a retriever since you are following Freddy?

How many recommending toe hitch use it on Labradors?

Toe hitch is fine but ear pinch is used by 99% of retriever trainers including the best in the business.


My sweet Molly was a an incredible lab and I watched as a professional trainer here in DFW put her on a table, attach her to a cable and used a toe loop to FF her. Now this was probably 10 years ago, but that table is still at his facility because I saw it a few months back when I bought my new pup from him, so I assume he still uses it. Not sure if he still uses toe hitch or collar or ear pinch or what... maybe all 3... maybe it “depends”... but he used to for sure. I’m training this lab myself, but told him I’d prefer him to do the FF instead of me since I’m no expert and don’t want the dog to hate me.

As far as the “best in the business”...I don’t know about that. He has over 1250 AKC Hunt Test Titles including 268 AKC Master Hunter titles. He has qualified 80 dogs for the Master Nationals since 2000 and has placed 10 dogs in the Hall of Fame. I’d guess he probably ranks up there pretty high as one of the best in the business. He’s one heck of a good guy too!




I guess I should start listing off all the big time pros with better stats that use ear pinch but that's not the point.

But just because I'll drop the names Lardy and Farmer...

The point is that the OPs problem isn't going to be solved by simply going to the toe hitch which I believe will actually be more difficult for him.


The OP said he was having issues and asked for suggestions. He quickly got 3 people that said toe hitch has worked for them. Then you discredit us all and say nobody uses that anymore? I point out that someone does and has a pretty good record with doing it. Then I get told I’m BS? What? I don’t appreciate that one bit! I’m not BS’ing anyone. That’s why I pointed out Dan’s accolades. And instead of saying oh hey Greg, my bad... I misread your post about the 10 years thing, I get called out. Not everyone uses ear pinch only.

I also disagree that professionals use a table to save their backs... I was told they use a table to take the feet away from the dog. It gives them control over the situation and the dog so they aren’t trying to hang on to a dog by the ear as he does 5 backflips like you talk about some people having to deal with. I also don’t think dogs have all of a sudden become soft and smarter over just the past 10-20 years. People have been breeding dogs a long time to try and get the best traits out of them.

To the OP, I’m sorry for where this thread has gone but I don’t appreciate being told I’m BS. Welcome to the forum... there are different ways to train dogs and I don’t think there is just one right way.



Last edited by Greg; 09/06/19 01:12 PM.
Re: force fetch [Re: Greg] #7599463 09/06/19 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Greg
Originally Posted by BradyBuck
Originally Posted by Greg
Originally Posted by BradyBuck
I assume your dog is a retriever since you are following Freddy?

How many recommending toe hitch use it on Labradors?

Toe hitch is fine but ear pinch is used by 99% of retriever trainers including the best in the business.


My sweet Molly was a an incredible lab and I watched as a professional trainer here in DFW put her on a table, attach her to a cable and used a toe loop to FF her. Now this was probably 10 years ago, but that table is still at his facility because I saw it a few months back when I bought my new pup from him, so I assume he still uses it. Not sure if he still uses toe hitch or collar or ear pinch or what... maybe all 3... maybe it “depends”... but he used to for sure. I’m training this lab myself, but told him I’d prefer him to do the FF instead of me since I’m no expert and don’t want the dog to hate me.

As far as the “best in the business”...I don’t know about that. He has over 1250 AKC Hunt Test Titles including 268 AKC Master Hunter titles. He has qualified 80 dogs for the Master Nationals since 2000 and has placed 10 dogs in the Hall of Fame. I’d guess he probably ranks up there pretty high as one of the best in the business. He’s one heck of a good guy too!




I guess I should start listing off all the big time pros with better stats that use ear pinch but that's not the point.

But just because I'll drop the names Lardy and Farmer...

The point is that the OPs problem isn't going to be solved by simply going to the toe hitch which I believe will actually be more difficult for him.


The OP said he was having issues and asked for suggestions. He quickly got 3 people that said toe hitch has worked for them. Then you discredit us all and say nobody uses that anymore? I point out that someone does and has a pretty good record with doing it. Then I get told I’m BS? What? I don’t appreciate that one bit! I’m not BS’ing anyone. That’s why I pointed out Dan’s accolades. And instead of saying oh hey Greg, my bad... I misread your post about the 10 years thing, I get called out. Not everyone uses ear pinch only.

So I’ll call BS too... professionals don’t use a table to save their backs... they use a table to take the feet away from the dog. It gives them control over the situation and the dog so they aren’t trying to hang on to a dog by the ear as he does 5 backflips like you talk about having to deal with.




I don't use a table and i teach my dogs to sit before I FF so i don't deal with the "backflips" as I stated as hyperbole.


IMO the toe hitch is not the answer. Your one example can be met with many many other just as successful or more successful trainers who do not use toe hitch. Your one example doesn't make it the answer for this situation.

There are a lot of advantages to ear pinch especially for a guy doing it for the first time. It's much easier to guide and control your dog and much easier to gauge how much pressure you are using.

Re: force fetch [Re: BradyBuck] #7599471 09/06/19 01:20 PM
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I never said it was THE answer for the situation. The OP asked for suggestions and he got some. He said his dog thought it was play time and wrestling with him. Me, and two others simply gave him another method to try. I’m done.

Re: force fetch [Re: Greg] #7599519 09/06/19 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Greg
I never said it was THE answer for the situation. The OP asked for suggestions and he got some. He said his dog thought it was play time and wrestling with him. Me, and two others simply gave him another method to try. I’m done.



And I suggested that it's not the method but that other things are involved.

I stand by my assessment...

Re: force fetch [Re: stnxfalk2] #7599553 09/06/19 03:01 PM
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Thank you everyone for the advice. I know there is more than one way to skin a cat I was just looking for some suggestions from the knowledgeable folks here who have been doing the way more than me.

Re: force fetch [Re: stnxfalk2] #7599578 09/06/19 03:32 PM
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OP, i’m Taking the high road here and going to avoid any pissing contests. Hopefully I can help. Toe hitch or ear pinch will work. I like ear pinch because you have more control over the dogs head. With all four fingers under the collar grasp it firmly. Lay the dogs ear on the collar next to your pointer finger. Use the thumb to apply pressure. That should give you a better control of the dog and give you control of its head. A foundation of solid obedience will alleviate the dog rodeo you are experiencing. There is nothing magic about a table but it is favored by many who train a lot of dogs for the convenience it provides. A lot of dogs, including all of mine are force fetched on the ground or even on tailgates.

Good luck with your training.


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Re: force fetch [Re: stnxfalk2] #7599594 09/06/19 03:53 PM
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I guess I could add some more detail as well. I think obedience is good, but I am sure not as good as others. She sits well on the table and even with an ear pinch does not move her body. If I just do hold with her she holds objects well and at lest understands what the word means. She holds and I can tap the object and she will not release until I tell her to. When I do the ear pinch I hold until the object is in her mouth, but she immediately wants to spit it out and try to grab my hand, the whole time the tail is wagging as if she is enjoying it.

Re: force fetch [Re: stnxfalk2] #7599613 09/06/19 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by stnxfalk2
I guess I could add some more detail as well. I think obedience is good, but I am sure not as good as others. She sits well on the table and even with an ear pinch does not move her body. If I just do hold with her she holds objects well and at lest understands what the word means. She holds and I can tap the object and she will not release until I tell her to. When I do the ear pinch I hold until the object is in her mouth, but she immediately wants to spit it out and try to grab my hand, the whole time the tail is wagging as if she is enjoying it.


If she spits it out, immediately apply pinch again, "fetch" bumper in mouth, release, use your hand to keep the bumper in and say "hold". Keep at it and look for small instances where you can praise.

I can't say without laying eyes on the dog but might need to apply more pressure.

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Simultaneous
1 ear pinch and “fetch” command.

2 As the dog accepts the bumper simultaneously relinquish the pressure and give the “hold” command. Maintain position with the ear. The moment it spits the bumper repeat steps one and two. Timing needs to be spot on.

A couple comments that may help initially:
1 Obedience needs to be such that when you give your dog a command it complies until released.
2 Initially help the dog by clinching the muzzle when giving “hold” command so it understands.
3 What you are experiencing is normal for just starting force fetch.
4 Keep sessions to less than 10 minutes a day.
5 Be patient and don’t raise your voice. Don’t lose sight of the fact that you are teaching.
6 You are not trying to submit the dog. You are teaching it to make a correction go away by complying with a known command.

Hopefully there is something in that that will get you off high center.


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Re: force fetch [Re: Greg] #7600024 09/07/19 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Greg
Originally Posted by Birdhunter61
Originally Posted by Greg
Originally Posted by BradyBuck
I assume your dog is a retriever since you are following Freddy?

How many recommending toe hitch use it on Labradors?

Toe hitch is fine but ear pinch is used by 99% of retriever trainers including the best in the business.


My sweet Molly was a an incredible lab and I watched as a professional trainer here in DFW put her on a table, attach her to a cable and used a toe loop to FF her. Now this was probably 10 years ago, but that table is still at his facility because I saw it a few months back when I bought my new pup from him, so I assume he still uses it. Not sure if he still uses toe hitch or collar or ear pinch or what... maybe all 3... maybe it “depends”... but he used to for sure. I’m training this lab myself, but told him I’d prefer him to do the FF instead of me since I’m no expert and don’t want the dog to hate me.

As far as the “best in the business”...I don’t know about that. He has over 1250 AKC Hunt Test Titles including 268 AKC Master Hunter titles. He has qualified 80 dogs for the Master Nationals since 2000 and has placed 10 dogs in the Hall of Fame. I’d guess he probably ranks up there pretty high as one of the best in the business. He’s one heck of a good guy too!


Your guy is really banking. At 268 master titles in 10 years, that's roughly 27 new master dogs per year. Not counting the ones from the previous year/s that he would have on his truck.

All BS aside, most pros use a table to ff, because its easier on the back. Most do not use a toe hitch anymore as dogs are more sensitive, and smarter than they used to be.

The best thing to do is get a pro to ff the dog, or watch one do it. Watching a video doesnt give you a good read on what the dog is doing and the amount of pressure needed to accomplish the task.

Robby


No BS.
His name is Dan Kielty and he owns marks-a-lot kennels. http://www.marksalot.com/
If you have run dogs in the area I’m sure you probably know him. Those numbers are straight from his website but since these things are recorded you should be able to confirm it if you want to. Let me know what you find out. Not sure if he is banking or not but he sure has one heck of a facility and he wins a lot of ribbons.


Robby is not a pro but he actually does “win lots of ribbons.” Like seriously wins them. Dan earns ribbons. Robby wins them. Big difference.

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