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Mar 25th, 2012
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Apparently hunting hogs is bad , you can only control them through trapping . Here we go . . . #7556525 07/15/19 01:25 PM
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https://www.westplainsdailyquill.ne...da821d6-a4ba-11e9-9b7e-97c960175b5a.html

I canít say I agree with their assessment - I know pigs scatter when shot and assume a new sounder but whether they be orphaned or widowed as part of the new group, it doesnít matter as they all die the same when hunters pressure them.

Granted trapping IS effective and perhaps the terrain and topography make it difficult to hunt

BUT

I can see a particular group of rule makers taking this inch and running a mile with it , especially when all the facts arenít published about what theyíve tried on the property and why trapping is better for that area.

In my opinion BOTH hunting and trapping are still the best approach

Iíve never thought that just because you werenít blood related to the alpha sow that youíd not enter the area to dine with fellow swine - who is managing that within the sounder ? Grandma !?!?!


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Re: Apparently hunting hogs is bad , you can only control them through trapping . Here we go . . . [Re: Pig_Popper] #7556535 07/15/19 01:33 PM
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if a person REALLY got serious about trapping and lowering the population of hogs, he could build a large trap capable of doing it. I have seen pictures of large traps made from cattle panels with a guillotine type door made from a 4x8 piece of plywood. If you had that type of trap, you could fairly easily coax a whole sounder inside at one time. The larger the door, the easier it is to get hogs in.

Re: Apparently hunting hogs is bad , you can only control them through trapping . Here we go . . . [Re: Pig_Popper] #7556553 07/15/19 01:46 PM
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I don't think the public will be on board with no hog hunting on public land to benefit private land ownership and continued private land hog hunting........


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Re: Apparently hunting hogs is bad , you can only control them through trapping . Here we go . . . [Re: Old Stony] #7556564 07/15/19 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Stony
if a person REALLY got serious about trapping and lowering the population of hogs, he could build a large trap capable of doing it. I have seen pictures of large traps made from cattle panels with a guillotine type door made from a 4x8 piece of plywood. If you had that type of trap, you could fairly easily coax a whole sounder inside at one time. The larger the door, the easier it is to get hogs in.


Totally agree !

But how have they (L-A-D foundation) proven that hunting makes what you say (a well designed and big trap) more difficult to employ or not successful ?

Scenario 1:

A large sounder of all blood relation awakes from their bedding area, on the schedule for the day is to eat and poop and make more babies. An hour into their day the whole sounder (in theory) is watering up at Ole Salís stock tank and Salís grandson pops Peter Porker IV (cause he was born with 13 siblings, 6 of which were boars) right in the melon.

The hogs scatter but all run back the way from where they came. At this point I suppose they have a couple of choices right....

A) Assume Peter is just funniní And go back to Salís water hole and investigate that strange pop that made him sleep

B) do a headcount of the sounder and continue about their day, eating / pooping / making babies

C) return to their bedding area and make funeral arrangements for Peter Porker IV

Iím betting the farm, these animals regroup and continue to other known feeding locations (one of which is the trap). Just because a hunter shot a sounder member doesnít make them less inclined to continue being pigs I.e entering the trap

Oh and along the way they encounter a new young boar who is crying that the loud day thunder took his mommy and daddy away over at Janieís junkyard.

They invite him to take position #16 in line (Peterís old spot) and he accepts hoping that his original sounder members will someday reappear.

When this group arrives at the trap , having read the article in the original post I suppose the sounder is going to convince the new young boar to stay outside the trap despite him being hungry and afraid just because hunters marked his family ?

I really canít make this up - just trying to pencil in some details around the articleís primary reason for banning hog hunting to make for more effective trapping...

From the article: ďeradication has only begun to be successful in recent years in areas where hunting has been prohibited. Shooting individual hogs scatters the packs and greatly interferes with efforts to trap entire family groups.Ē


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Re: Apparently hunting hogs is bad , you can only control them through trapping . Here we go . . . [Re: Pig_Popper] #7556625 07/15/19 02:51 PM
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Hunted on a place overrun by hogs. It was about 800 acres. We ran 3 box traps, shot hogs on sight and put snares on every fence crossing we could find. It was really effective and the most effective method were the snares. However, snares are indiscriminant killers, they killed a lot of things they weren't intended to both good and bad.


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Re: Apparently hunting hogs is bad , you can only control them through trapping . Here we go . . . [Re: Pig_Popper] #7556705 07/15/19 04:21 PM
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Well, all I know is that since I starting hunting several properties, the amount of damage on those properties has dropped considerably and the landowners are happy about that. I have three landowners who have used trappers in the past. I have replaced them.

I also know that all methods will fail so long as there are properties where hunting/trapping is not allowed to occur and you can bet that will be over huge areas of the state.

From what I have read of the success of trapping up in Missouri and Kansas is that they are so effective, they are catching more and more hogs each year while at the same time claiming that the population is in decline. Now I am no mathemagician, but I don't see how the population is in decline if they are catching more and more each year. Seems to me like if you you are catching more and more each year, then the population is actually growing despite the trapping efforts.

There seems to be a lot of hocus pocus and playing fast and loose with populations assessments. NOBODY has a fricking clue as to how many feral hogs there are in any state. Texas was thought to have had 2 million hogs back in 1997 http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=0pZaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=IksDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6915,5481655&dq=texas hog population 2 million&hl=en By 2011, it was thought we had between 1.9 and 3.4 million hogs with a growth rate of roughly 20% per year (18-21%). https://feralhogs.tamu.edu/2011/05/agrilife-today-busting-feral-hog-myths/

So, we were thought to have had close to 2 million in Texas in 1997. In 2005, IIRC correctly, it was determined that we had 2 million hogs and again that number shows up in 2007 with the hogs doing $52 million in damages. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-09-28-4083606463_x.htm (Sorry, this link is dead). That wasn't a lot of growth since 1997, LOL The good folks at A&M estimate 18-21% annual growth after all the current insults to the population such as hunting, vehicle collisions, disease, etc.

Think about it. If we were at 2.0 million in 2007 and we had the lower end of 18% growth
2008 2.36 million
2009 2.78 million
2010 3.29 million
2011 3.88 million
2012 4.57 million
2013 5.4 million
2014 6.37 million
2015 7.52 million
2016 8.87 million
2017 10.47 million
2018 12.35 million
2019 14.58 million hogs in Texas today. That would be the low estimate, but nobody is saying we have that many. Why?

So there are folks who are involved with studying the Texas hog population who either can't count or can't estimate appropriately because the numbers they keep giving us don't add up when you look back at what they have provided us in the past...and these are some of the experts who want to implement the proper measures to control the population. How do they know what is proper or even reasonable if they don't even really know how many they are dealing with in the first place?

Now, I fully understand the concept of population sample counts and then estimation based on habitat carrying capacity assessments. These are statistical procedures by which a small amount of known data (sample counts) can be extrapolated over huge areas. Got it. The problem is that somewhere in the process, there information is bogus. Either their actual counts are not truly representative of the areas that they are sampling or that their carrying capacity estimates don't actually match the actual carrying capacity of the environment. Either way, I don't think they have a valid clue as to the population that they are trying to address.


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Re: Apparently hunting hogs is bad , you can only control them through trapping . Here we go . . . [Re: Pig_Popper] #7556814 07/15/19 06:20 PM
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They just want us to believe poison is the only logical way

Re: Apparently hunting hogs is bad , you can only control them through trapping . Here we go . . . [Re: Double Naught Spy] #7556827 07/15/19 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy

From what I have read of the success of trapping up in Missouri and Kansas is that they are so effective, they are catching more and more hogs each year while at the same time claiming that the population is in decline. Now I am no mathemagician, but I don't see how the population is in decline if they are catching more and more each year. Seems to me like if you you are catching more and more each year, then the population is actually growing despite the trapping efforts.


I could see it being either way.

Proposition 1: They are simply getting better at catching hogs is what they are saying. 'Reducing' the number of hogs present (total population) but in error presenting it as having reached the point of capturing hogs faster than the total population can reproduce. ( true decline).

It doesn't necessarily mean the population is growing (though it probably is), it just means they are being more successful at catching the present population and their 'hope' is that at some point they would reach the tipping point (capturing/killing) hogs faster than they are being replaced (reproduced or migration).

In the context of eradication....it would be no different than if I wanted to remove all the Crappie from my fish pond so the Bass could thrive.

Say... the first year I fished with artificial lures and caught a good number of fish. But knew instinctively that the number taken would nearly be replaced the following spawn. So next year I switch to live bait (minnows) and start catching fish like gang busters.

I could rightfully claim (its an assumption really) that I had the population on the 'decline'. But until I catch enough of them that I am taking them out of the pond faster than they can make more....then I haven't achieved my goal. I would need to bring in more fishermen (read more traps for hogs) or find an even better bait (method). Eventually, I would expect to be rid of them....or nearly so and in the process (perhaps abruptly) see a sharp decline in my catch near the end.

Proposition 2:

There really are MORE hogs...despite previous efforts to control them and Officials have been fooled into thinking they are getting better at trapping them when in fact the hogs are simply more numerous than before (more hogs competing for the same resource) so you catch more hogs.

I don't find that explanation to be as plausible (though possible up to a point). Having trapped and hunted hogs for right at 30 yrs. now.

A particular property (area) will only support so many hogs (local or transient). Generally there is only so much water, food supply and bedding areas (necessities). If saturated...any additional hogs would need to spread out.

I've no doubt that Wildlife Managers in States with budding populations are having to 'learn' control techniques. But they aren't dummies.

It sounds as if they have already discovered that 'hunting pressure' has a LOT to do with hog feeding patterns and how alert they are to potential dangers. I'm inclined to agree that trapping will be easier on properties where the hogs are not constantly being bumped, shot at or otherwise greatly disturbed.

Having said that....IF the State is going to take on the responsibility of reducing the numbers of hogs on public land they better pull out all the stops and make a grand effort of it. Trapping can be an effective method....but no single method will prove successful and no combination of methods will either... unless done on a large and serious scale.



Last edited by flintknapper; 07/15/19 06:39 PM.

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Re: Apparently hunting hogs is bad , you can only control them through trapping . Here we go . . . [Re: Pig_Popper] #7556873 07/15/19 07:30 PM
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I don't see it going either way as I have been following the story. As a group, the Missouri experts/officials are delusional. They killed 9365 in 2018, 6561 in 2017, 5358 in 2016 via trapping and aerial hunting.
https://www.news-leader.com/story/n...i-feral-hogs-problem-hunting/2705988002/

Isn't that ironic. They think hunting hogs causes them to spread more, yet they employ helicopter hunter. Hmmm.

MDC reported 10K hogs in 30 counties in 2018
http://www.northamericanwildlifeandhabitat.com/missouri-wild-hog-crisis.html

Hunting on public lands was outlawed in September 2016

In 2015, they thought they had 10,000 hogs...
https://www.joplinglobe.com/news/lo...79e10f2-9d20-5ffc-839e-13c5d4603353.html

In 2010, they thought they had 5000-10000 hogs.
https://www.agweb.com/article/missouris_feral_hog_issue_is_a_matter_of_wording_193644/

Somehow, they have killed more than double their population in less than 4 years and still have the original amount. That is pretty impressive.

However, I like this quote best...
Quote
ďRight now, we donít know the feral hog population in Missouri and have no way to estimate the number,Ē

https://www.agweb.com/article/wild-pig-wars-controversy-over-hunting-trapping-in-missouri/

However, from the same article, the hog population estimate for the state is at 20,000-30,000 hogs, half of which are believed to be in Mark Twain National Forest. They cite this information...
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd536458.pdf

So do they really know what is going on and how well they are actually doing? Apparently not.

If they could actually show real changes in population, I might be impressed with their claims about how good the program is. The only numbers they can show are how many hogs they killed. They can't agree on how many they even have.


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Re: Apparently hunting hogs is bad , you can only control them through trapping . Here we go . . . [Re: Pig_Popper] #7556880 07/15/19 07:44 PM
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This reminds me of one of those ludicrous hog hunting shows from a few years back. You know the ones where they say "that's a 300 lb hog we have here" and two people lift it and toss it easily into the back of the truck.

Anyway this old women was saying the hogs were aggressive and going after her when she left her front porch and she couldn't make it to her car. They call the hog hunters from TV to come out and take care of the hogs. Where do the hunters go, to the back of the property. They use their dogs pin a big sow and kill her. Next morning they tell the little old lady her hog problems are over. My wife said why didn't they sit on the front porch with a couple of cold ones and shoot them? For most of America watching they're thinking wow, that's pretty easy to get rid of the hogs. For those of us in Texas and throughout the south it's total nonsense but I guess it makes for good TV.

One of my neighbors a few miles down from me who owns 8000 acres did two helicopter shoots last summer and winter. The first one at the end of Aug he took 187 hogs and 12 coyotes. He did another one in Early Dec and took 308 hogs and no count on coyotes. Within a few weeks my buddy who lives across the street from him started seeing pigs again. Now their right back to where they were.

I'm not sure hunting or trapping can take care of the problem by it's self or together and I dang straight don't want poison anywhere near my ranch. It seems to me you can rid more hogs with helicopter shoots than both trapping and hunting together. Yes, at $750 an hour which is what they charge in my neck of the woods is a tad expensive but it seems to kill more hogs.


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Re: Apparently hunting hogs is bad , you can only control them through trapping . Here we go . . . [Re: Pig_Popper] #7556919 07/15/19 08:22 PM
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If the Ranchers want to pay for the helo and gas - Iíll bring the weapon and ammo to help them out.

Seems like a reasonable agreement , pity that all the legalities and risk for the Ranchers make this a non-starter.

Good points made by all, Iím still not seeing how hunters are diminishing the eradication effort.


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Re: Apparently hunting hogs is bad , you can only control them through trapping . Here we go . . . [Re: Pig_Popper] #7557223 07/16/19 12:44 AM
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From one of the links DNS provided:

"Look at the terrain in many places where vehicles canít even get access to trap. However, the man with a dog gets in and heís a valuable tool to shoot hogs. Bottom line, there is room for everyone to play a role in this and we all should be working together. Dog hunters are good people and theyíre not transporting hogs and they constantly help people kill hogs in areas where boot leather is required, despite the rap they frequently take.Ē

^^^^^

Maybe this is true in Missouri. Possibly in certain parts of Texas.....but I can tell you with no fear of argument that 'Hog Doggers' are directly responsible for the sudden population explosion/spread of Feral Hogs in every county in Deep East Texas. Starting about the mid 80's all through the 90's they made concerted efforts to bring hogs into areas where they were not a problem before. Solely for the 'sport' of running their dogs. It was all quite effective.

As for Hog Dogger's being "Good People"....you won't hear that touted much around here. "Good"/responsible hog dogger's where I live would be a pleasant surprise but very much a rarity.

I agree there are circumstances where only dogs would be effective. But keep in mind dogs ALWAYS spread out the hogs (free ranging hogs). Yes, 'good' dogs will catch a hog...maybe two from a group. The rest...head for the hills. On small properties you just end up sending them to your neighbor. All the while... the hogs become more alert to dogs. In no time....as soon as they hear the rattle of a tail-gate or God-forbid a dog bark...they are gone before the dogs can even be put on the ground. The dogs may or may not catch up to them...but for certain they are going to spread them out.

So...Hog Dogger's are forced to constantly search out new properties to run their dogs on. They don't particularly care if they have permission or not. They love to 'start' their dogs at wildlife feeders or baited out hog traps. Capitalize on your work. More often than not thwart your efforts to get hogs coming into the trap area.

Then its a special treat to have 2-3 hog dogs come wandering up to your house, hungry and thirsty from having been lost for 3 days, miles from where they were put down. IF you're lucky one of them will have a tracking collar and 'Bubba' will eventually come driving by or maybe there will be number to call. Don't waste your time or breath warning them to stay off your property or control their dogs. You wouldn't believe some of the responses.

Missouri would do well to avoid all of this. But ultimately it will come down to Wildlife Officials upping their efforts AND convincing hunters....this is NOT a species you want to have in your State for sake of your hunting pleasure. Once enough of a certain group decides they want them...then its game over (just like Texas).


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Re: Apparently hunting hogs is bad , you can only control them through trapping . Here we go . . . [Re: Pig_Popper] #7557243 07/16/19 12:55 AM
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I can say for certain that the hog population has decreased dramatically in the past 6 years on our lease. It wasnít uncommon 5-6 years ago to see 40-60 hogs in the wheat fields and to see 15-20 at your feeders. Now itís rare to see a sounder at your feeders or the fields. I have a sounder showing up now with 7-10 hogs and itís largest group I have seen in several years. A few people around us run traps, but not consistently and theyíre not very successful.

Re: Apparently hunting hogs is bad , you can only control them through trapping . Here we go . . . [Re: Pig_Popper] #7557407 07/16/19 04:35 AM
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Successful eradication where hunting is illegal is a direct result of nobody making money selling pig hunts.

When you can't cash in on pig hunting, you are left with a destructive animal that has no purpose, and at that point, SSS.


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