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Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: StephensCnty308] #7552962 07/10/19 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by StephensCnty308
Originally Posted by stxranchman
These are my shot placement preferences. I have taken these shots with a .223, 6mm, .270 and a few with the .280. All with Remington ammo except the .280 is with Federal Premium. The slightly quartering to me angle is my preferred placement. The back legs drop out from under the deer and after they hit the ground, they never move again.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]





I hit a buck there the year before last hunting on a buddies family land down in Dilley.
It was not a shot I chose however he jerked and that’s where the bullet and you’re right his legs buckled and he laid there twitching for maybe a minute.

I have honestly thought about taking that shot again however I’ve never been a gambling person and stick to heart/lungs.

The learning experience from taking any shot/kill is to then gut and process the deer yourself. You then get to see exactly where you hit and what the damage was like. To see what to improve on or do exactly the same on the next shot. Once you take that shot a few times you can place that shot without thinking about it. I learned to do a necropsy from an in-the-field seminar where a deer shot was videoed way back in 1992. We then watched as the deer necropsy done to show shot placement, wound channel and other info that could be gained while cleaning a deer.


Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?[Linked Image]
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: stxranchman] #7552972 07/10/19 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by stxranchman
Originally Posted by StephensCnty308
Originally Posted by stxranchman
These are my shot placement preferences. I have taken these shots with a .223, 6mm, .270 and a few with the .280. All with Remington ammo except the .280 is with Federal Premium. The slightly quartering to me angle is my preferred placement. The back legs drop out from under the deer and after they hit the ground, they never move again.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]





I hit a buck there the year before last hunting on a buddies family land down in Dilley.
It was not a shot I chose however he jerked and that’s where the bullet and you’re right his legs buckled and he laid there twitching for maybe a minute.

I have honestly thought about taking that shot again however I’ve never been a gambling person and stick to heart/lungs.

The learning experience from taking any shot/kill is to then gut and process the deer yourself. You then get to see exactly where you hit and what the damage was like. To see what to improve on or do exactly the same on the next shot. Once you take that shot a few times you can place that shot without thinking about it. I learned to do a necropsy from an in-the-field seminar where a deer shot was videoed way back in 1992. We then watched as the deer necropsy done to show shot placement, wound channel and other info that could be gained while cleaning a deer.

That's great information. To the OP, my placement isn't that much different than STXranchman. THe first deer I opened up after making that shot was very revealing. Cavity FULL of blood. No damage to any major organs. A lot of the deer I have shot like this lietrally fold up. Sounds like you'll be shooting from a blind, which means you'll have a good rest and plenty of time. Practice it. If not now, try it on some does with no pressure. Or, put a 1" orange dot on a life size silhouette target where I or ranchman suggested. IMO most of the time someone goes for heart/lung, it ends up being lung only.


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: stxranchman] #7552989 07/10/19 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by stxranchman
These are my shot placement preferences. I have taken these shots with a .223, 6mm, .270 and a few with the .280. All with Remington ammo except the .280 is with Federal Premium. The slightly quartering to me angle is my preferred placement. The back legs drop out from under the deer and after they hit the ground, they never move again. I have been using all three of these shots since 1991.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]



these are my preferred shot placement for 99% of the bucks I have shot dating back into the early 1970s ...


"everyone that lives dies but not everyone who dies lived..."

~PMK~
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #7553122 07/10/19 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by AZ_Hunter_2000
Hunted in Alberta for whitetail and mule deer. I brought a 300 Win Mag. There was a huge difference in size between whitetail and mule deer from a body perspective.

I shot my whitetail just under 500 yards and he dropped like a ton of bricks.

My mule deer refused to die. After a very long stalk and popping up just over him, I shot him in the lungs at less than 20 yards. He tumbled down the mountain and was torn up more from the deadfall, got up and ran several hundred yards. He bedded down. Found him and he was still alive. Shot him in the lungs, again, at less than 10 yards. Gave him a few minutes and he still was not dead. Shot him point blank in the chest and he still took another minute to finally perish.

The moral of the story is this: animals will die when they die. Every animal has a different level of will to live. Using a magnum does not necessarily equate to a faster death.

The mule deer was very heavy bodied but no where near 300 pounds.
[Linked Image]

Do you have any other pic's of that big bodied mule deer? You're right about one thing, "magnum" alone means nothing without shot placement and the right bullet. At those very short distances it is likely that your bullet didn't open up and you punched small Ø holes in his lungs. Your whitetail that dropped at 500, what was shot placement? OP had a question, and my response was to make the point was to put emphasis on shot placement.



At short range bullets explode not fail to open.

And mule deer are a different tough I’ve seen several take a few shots to bring down, all well placed.


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: StephensCnty308] #7553124 07/10/19 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by StephensCnty308
Originally Posted by stxranchman
These are my shot placement preferences. I have taken these shots with a .223, 6mm, .270 and a few with the .280. All with Remington ammo except the .280 is with Federal Premium. The slightly quartering to me angle is my preferred placement. The back legs drop out from under the deer and after they hit the ground, they never move again.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]





I hit a buck there the year before last hunting on a buddies family land down in Dilley.
It was not a shot I chose however he jerked and that’s where the bullet and you’re right his legs buckled and he laid there twitching for maybe a minute.

I have honestly thought about taking that shot again however I’ve never been a gambling person and stick to heart/lungs.



Nothing is a gamble with that shot.

It’s almost foolproof with a proper caliber and good bullet.

My motto is: “ if it’s going on the wall, put it in the shoulder”. If I lose the meat on both shoulders so be it.



For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #7553391 07/10/19 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
I have shot my 2 biggest Mule Deer with 130gr. 270. Neither took more than a few steps before the DRT.

What bullet, and shot placement? I'm going out on a limb and betting it wasn't a lung shot, nor was it inside 20 yards with no chance for your bullet to expand.



That statement is totally incorrect. If a bullet is going to expand, it will do it even more at shorter distances (higher impact velocity). In most cases with those close shots it is over expansion and/or bullet fragmentation that is the problem, not under.


#FighttheNoise
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: txtrophy85] #7553396 07/10/19 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by StephensCnty308
Originally Posted by stxranchman
These are my shot placement preferences. I have taken these shots with a .223, 6mm, .270 and a few with the .280. All with Remington ammo except the .280 is with Federal Premium. The slightly quartering to me angle is my preferred placement. The back legs drop out from under the deer and after they hit the ground, they never move again.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]





I hit a buck there the year before last hunting on a buddies family land down in Dilley.
It was not a shot I chose however he jerked and that’s where the bullet and you’re right his legs buckled and he laid there twitching for maybe a minute.

I have honestly thought about taking that shot again however I’ve never been a gambling person and stick to heart/lungs.



Nothing is a gamble with that shot.

It’s almost foolproof with a proper caliber and good bullet.

My motto is: “ if it’s going on the wall, put it in the shoulder”. If I lose the meat on both shoulders so be it.




agree with you totally - that is my shot always - have not lost many in my 60 years of hunting


You can't fix stupid
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: StephensCnty308] #7553856 07/11/19 01:52 PM
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That is where I used to aim, but on my first safari, the outfitter didn't like it when I did that and strongly suggested that I aim for the heart on the next animal. His reasoning was that anything shot in the hear will die, but there is a risk of it not dying if you aim anywhere else, and for him, there will be a lot of time spent tracking it if it wasn't a heart shot. Since it was his ranch and I was paying him for his expertise along with the animals there, I listened and shot my next animal in the heart. It ran a short distance and died cleanly. That was in 1993, and I've aimed for the heart on every animal that I've shot since then. This is also why I don't feel caliber size is all that important as long as it's in the appropriate range for what you are hunting. 130 grain bullets and up are all going to give you the same results if you take out the animals heart. Bigger bullets allow poorer shot placement, but even a 200 grain bullet in the wrong spot can lead to lots of tracking and even losing the animal. Shot placement is by far the most important concern.

Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: StephensCnty308] #7553911 07/11/19 03:09 PM
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"bigger bullets allow poorer shot placement" - for me that is the key. I think I am a pretty good shot - however things happen - get bumped, deer moves at last second, etc. Therefore I prefer (especially on trophy animals) to go with higher caliber and bullet size to compensate for potential errors


You can't fix stupid
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: stxranchman] #7553912 07/11/19 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by stxranchman
I have used my Remington .270 with 130 grains Corelokts to kill Red Stags and Mule Deer in Alberta/West Texas all with high shoulder shots. The Mule Deer in Alberta field dressed well over 300 lbs. I used that rifle and ammo combo since it was all I had. I just made sure I put the bullet where it needed to go. If I had a larger caliber I might would have used it but I did not at the time. So I took what I had. I have used the same combo on WT and exotics here in Texas for years. My largest WT dressed 190 lbs. Take what you are comfortable shooting and have the most confidence in.



Amen.....a voice of experience.

Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: tlk] #7553913 07/11/19 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by tlk
"bigger bullets allow poorer shot placement" - for me that is the key. I think I am a pretty good shot - however things happen - get bumped, deer moves at last second, etc. Therefore I prefer (especially on trophy animals) to go with higher caliber and bullet size to compensate for potential errors



That's ridiculous. Larger calibers do not make up for bad shots, ever. I've watched big aoudad rams drop dead from a 95gr ballistic tip out of a 243, and run off never to be found from a misplaced 300RM.

Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: StephensCnty308] #7553915 07/11/19 03:17 PM
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This mule deer weight between 300-315 on cotton scales. Dropped him like a prom dress at 160 yds with a 7mm0i8 and 140 Accubond. High shoulder shot.

[Linked Image]

Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: StephensCnty308] #7553930 07/11/19 03:39 PM
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25-06 is more than enough gun for a whitetail.

Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: stxranchman] #7554137 07/11/19 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by stxranchman
I have used my .270 with 130 grains Corelokts t.


That is exactly what I used when I lived in Michigan.




LETS GO BRANDON
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: EddieWalker] #7554141 07/11/19 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by EddieWalker
That is where I used to aim, but on my first safari, the outfitter didn't like it when I did that and strongly suggested that I aim for the heart on the next animal. His reasoning was that anything shot in the hear will die, but there is a risk of it not dying if you aim anywhere else, and for him, there will be a lot of time spent tracking it if it wasn't a heart shot. Since it was his ranch and I was paying him for his expertise along with the animals there, I listened and shot my next animal in the heart. It ran a short distance and died cleanly. That was in 1993, and I've aimed for the heart on every animal that I've shot since then. This is also why I don't feel caliber size is all that important as long as it's in the appropriate range for what you are hunting. 130 grain bullets and up are all going to give you the same results if you take out the animals heart. Bigger bullets allow poorer shot placement, but even a 200 grain bullet in the wrong spot can lead to lots of tracking and even losing the animal. Shot placement is by far the most important concern.


what kind of animals were you hunting on Safari?


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: StephensCnty308] #7555122 07/13/19 04:51 AM
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Shot placement is everything until somebody starts talking about .223 for deer. I don't think you could ever have too much gun for anything. I also understand what it is to be sentimental for a favorite weapon, that could do what you need done, even though you have other tools better for the job. 300 win mag cheap insurance, .25-06 gives you a warm fuzzy feeling.

Why can't you just take both rifles? Pick a good load with a quality bullet (barnes? Partition? i don't know)for your favorite old rifle and see what they say after they see how well you shoot if. Only assuming they have to see you confirm your zero before you can shoot a animal up there.

Last edited by regularguy11B; 07/13/19 04:52 AM.

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Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: Jgraider] #7555152 07/13/19 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Jgraider
This mule deer weight between 300-315 on cotton scales. Dropped him like a prom dress at 160 yds with a 7mm0i8 and 140 Accubond. High shoulder shot.

[Linked Image]


jgraider--nice photo. Im kinda fanatical about trying to capture the perfect deer deer pic. The extra color you got in there is a nice touch. Of course, a great subject matter helps.
Sorry OP, no time to address the thread topic, maybe later-sorry for the hijack.


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: StephensCnty308] #7555191 07/13/19 12:51 PM
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Congrats OP. Happy Anniversary to you and the Mrs. Hang on to that woman. As far as which rifle? If you put one in the boiler room with any of the 3 calibers you listed, you're gonna be hauling a whitetail trophy home from Michigan. Spend adequate range time with whichever your first choice rifle is and travel to Michigan with confidence.


Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: Jgraider] #7555225 07/13/19 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Jgraider
Originally Posted by tlk
"bigger bullets allow poorer shot placement" - for me that is the key. I think I am a pretty good shot - however things happen - get bumped, deer moves at last second, etc. Therefore I prefer (especially on trophy animals) to go with higher caliber and bullet size to compensate for potential errors



That's ridiculous. Larger calibers do not make up for bad shots, ever. I've watched big aoudad rams drop dead from a 95gr ballistic tip out of a 243, and run off never to be found from a misplaced 300RM.


I am a prime example of this. In my mid 20s I was hunting with a 375 H&H that I had become proficient with. Adrenaline got the best of me and it took 7 poor shots to take down an aoudad. That was 7 actual hits and it got back up and kept running each time. The aoudad were considered a nuisance on that ranch and I was obligated to shoot everyone I saw. The first shot was on a running animal at 285 yards. I was in control on that shot, every shot thereafter was burning up ammo and adrenaline. That proved unequivocally to me that energy will never replace shot placement. I still get “buck fever” just as bad but I’ve matured to know when not to take a shot.

Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: wp75169] #7555232 07/13/19 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by wp75169
Originally Posted by Jgraider
Originally Posted by tlk
"bigger bullets allow poorer shot placement" - for me that is the key. I think I am a pretty good shot - however things happen - get bumped, deer moves at last second, etc. Therefore I prefer (especially on trophy animals) to go with higher caliber and bullet size to compensate for potential errors



That's ridiculous. Larger calibers do not make up for bad shots, ever. I've watched big aoudad rams drop dead from a 95gr ballistic tip out of a 243, and run off never to be found from a misplaced 300RM.


I am a prime example of this. In my mid 20s I was hunting with a 375 H&H that I had become proficient with. Adrenaline got the best of me and it took 7 poor shots to take down an aoudad. That was 7 actual hits and it got back up and kept running each time. The aoudad were considered a nuisance on that ranch and I was obligated to shoot everyone I saw. The first shot was on a running animal at 285 yards. I was in control on that shot, every shot thereafter was burning up ammo and adrenaline. That proved unequivocally to me that energy will never replace shot placement. I still get “buck fever” just as bad but I’ve matured to know when not to take a shot.


I have never said shot placement is not the key - of course it is. My point is not every shot someone takes at a live animal will be perfect placement. So if a 95 grain load and a 180 grain load both were to hit in the exact same spot the 180 grain load is going to do more tissue and organ damage than a 96 grain.


You can't fix stupid
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: StephensCnty308] #7555291 07/13/19 03:24 PM
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It’s beyond me why people don’t take two rifles to the blind. First rifle should be a 375 H&H so you don’t over expand at close range. Second rifle next to you should be an unbraked 30-378 wby so you don’t under expand at longer range. It’s simple unethical to do anything else.. this is written into the Ethical Book of Hunting and written by market gunner T. Rossy And long range bowhunter Aldo Luppy... whistle


All seriousness don’t over think it. Shot sequence is more important then head stamp.

Indulge in the experience, rest will fall into place.



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Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: Jgraider] #7555360 07/13/19 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jgraider
This mule deer weight between 300-315 on cotton scales. Dropped him like a prom dress at 160 yds with a 7mm0i8 and 140 Accubond. High shoulder shot.

[Linked Image]

up


hold on Newt, we got a runaway
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: tlk] #7555448 07/13/19 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tlk
Originally Posted by wp75169
Originally Posted by Jgraider
Originally Posted by tlk
"bigger bullets allow poorer shot placement" - for me that is the key. I think I am a pretty good shot - however things happen - get bumped, deer moves at last second, etc. Therefore I prefer (especially on trophy animals) to go with higher caliber and bullet size to compensate for potential errors



That's ridiculous. Larger calibers do not make up for bad shots, ever. I've watched big aoudad rams drop dead from a 95gr ballistic tip out of a 243, and run off never to be found from a misplaced 300RM.


I am a prime example of this. In my mid 20s I was hunting with a 375 H&H that I had become proficient with. Adrenaline got the best of me and it took 7 poor shots to take down an aoudad. That was 7 actual hits and it got back up and kept running each time. The aoudad were considered a nuisance on that ranch and I was obligated to shoot everyone I saw. The first shot was on a running animal at 285 yards. I was in control on that shot, every shot thereafter was burning up ammo and adrenaline. That proved unequivocally to me that energy will never replace shot placement. I still get “buck fever” just as bad but I’ve matured to know when not to take a shot.


I have never said shot placement is not the key - of course it is. My point is not every shot someone takes at a live animal will be perfect placement. So if a 95 grain load and a 180 grain load both were to hit in the exact same spot the 180 grain load is going to do more tissue and organ damage than a 96 grain.


Agree with tlk 100%. Most everyone knows shot placement is critical, but extra gun/bullet is good insurance for a slight mid placement—especially on a special hunt. Have fun.


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: Jgraider] #7555487 07/13/19 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Jgraider
Originally Posted by tlk
"bigger bullets allow poorer shot placement" - for me that is the key. I think I am a pretty good shot - however things happen - get bumped, deer moves at last second, etc. Therefore I prefer (especially on trophy animals) to go with higher caliber and bullet size to compensate for potential errors



That's ridiculous. Larger calibers do not make up for bad shots, ever. I've watched big aoudad rams drop dead from a 95gr ballistic tip out of a 243, and run off never to be found from a misplaced 300RM.



You're right a larger bullet doesn't make up for poor shot placement. However I have found it opens up more shots or angels for a kill shot.

Re: Gun selection for Michigan high fence ... your thoughts ????? [Re: StephensCnty308] #7555501 07/13/19 09:38 PM
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But what about good shot placement? Just because you have seen a couple animals in your lifetime take a solid hit and still run, that is the exception.

You can not tell me that a shot through both lungs with a .243 will kill as fast as the same shot with a .338 win mag.


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