First off, let me give you an analogy.

A couple of years ago I had a good buddy that was absolutely obsessed with premium, perfect accuracy.

He had multiple custom rifles built. Built with specific chambers cut, specific twist rates for his Bartelin barrels, custom bedding, custom chassis, custom muzzle brakes, custom everything if you get my point. He spared no expense.

This guy bought a 4 THOUSAND DOLLAR scale that measured powder by the kernel. He didn't actually buy it, because its actually a 25 year lease he found out after it was delivered. Its called a Prometheus. Google it. Its ridiculous.

Same dude uses some crazy induction annealer for his brass. Obsessed to the max.\

Now to the point.

I bought one of his rifles off of him. Its a 7RSAUM that was built 3 separate times by 3 different gunsmiths. When he finally got it dialed in, he was on to a different caliber, so I got it for a song. I got all 400 pieces of new Norma brass and 100 pieces of once fired Norma brass.

He had custom Redding dies built for his specific bullet. He had special bushings made for these dies that gave him complete control over the neck tension of his bullets.

When I bought the rifle he gave me the dies on loan to use until I could afford my own dies and I think 10 loaded rounds. I was hesitant. $400 dollar plus for a set of dies I couldn't fathom. After all, I am just a peasant and really didn't see that in the near future.

I want ahead and loaded 20 rounds of his booked handloads using my peasant equipment and his dies with his load data. Then I felt the guilt and brought him back his dies and ordered my own LEE dies for I think around $40.

I loaded the same load data with my LEE dies and crappy Lyman electronic scale. 20 more rounds I think.

We went to the local range here to zero. I put my crappy Vortex HS-T scope on my new rifle despite it usually wearing a Premire Optics scope. Whatever...That's what I can afford.

Initially I fired his loads given to me at the time of purchase. Groups were the same or better than when he owned the rifle.. I think it was shooting in the 2s or 3s. He just kind of smirked at me after the 3 or so groups I shot.

Then I shot groups with the ammo that I loaded with his dies and my crappy powder scale and they were identical. I think I got a comment like "Dies bro, get yourself some good dies".

Then I shot groups with my ammo loaded with my crappy LEE dies and crappy Lyman powder scale and got the same groups as the prior groups. He saw this and said, "What dies did you get bro?" (He's from California) I said, LEE dies BRO.

This fool then told me that I was all wrong my dies were junk. I scoffed and told him to look again at the target. My 200 dollar scale and 40 dollar dies performed on par with his fancy stuff. I asked him what else could I ask for. All he could say was I was doing it wrong.

So, long story longer, don't get caught up in believing everything you read on the internet, including this. Do what is within your means. Do I think all of his equipment leads to better results? Absolutely, just not in this particular situation, and i am perfectly happy with the practical accuracy of it.

The difference in the scale and induction annealing machine is time. A Prometheus throws incredibly fast and is within a kernel. Also at 100yds you're not likely to see a variation in charge weight being off. Most "economically" priced digital scales have a +/- accuracy of .1grain which won't show much until distance is factored in or you recorded chrono numbers. Same goes for the annealing machine the induction machines like an amp are again extremely fast in comparison to all other options out there. Is the juice worth the squeeze? I don't know as that var8by individual and how much they value your time.

Lee dies and presses here. The only scales I have not done well with are balance beams. They make me lose my mind. The older Pact made RCBS auto dispenser I have is slow but fairly accurate. Load development still finds me hand trickling.

I understand the 100 yard reference, but I dont just shoot at 100. Same load gets me to a mile. I regularly shoot at Battlefield to 1100 and first round hits are easy.

For the most part, the upgrades I have spent good money on were simply to process brass, throw charges faster.

Forster manual lathe trimmer, 50 pieces of brass, 50 minutes.
Giraud powered trimmer, 50 pieces of brass, 4.5 minutes.

Chargemaster, followed by manual beam scale, 50 rounds loaded, 50 minutes.
Autotrickler, 50 rounds loaded, 25 minutes.

But, I am not going to say the less expensive equipment does not produce high quality ammo, because it does. It is just slow about it. For some, that's no problem.

You can certainly load good, match grade ammo with the low priced dies and standard electronic powder thrower. When I first got into target shooting and competition shooting, I loaded all my 300 WM competition ammo on an old CH Tool and Die press (from the 60's) and old balance beam scale. It was a slower process, but it loaded great ammo that shot sub 1/2 moa. No doubt you can load good ammo with the lower cost presses, dies, and powder thrower. (The powder thrower should be accurate to .2 grains, which is +/- .1 of your desired charge weight. It could show it's limitations out at distance, but would still be good)

The fancy dies allow you to control the shoulder head spacing and neck sizing to your rifles' chamber. Are they worth it? That's up to you. I can certainly get by with standard FL dies and neck bushing sizing dies for less cost.

The annealing machine is a great tool. It is programmable for certain types of brass, brass neck thicknesses, with adjustable heat. So it certainly is more advanced than you propane torch.

I agree with a lot of what the op has to say up there. Most people go changing stuff out for "better" quality and performance without even knowing if its an improvement.

I�ve loaded a whole lot of very accurate ammo on lee dies and presses.

Same here Cowboy. I started when I was a single digit age, bought a Loader out of the back of Outdoor Life, and could buy components at the corner store with my candy bar. I'd been reloading about five years when my dad figured it out, so I started to reload for him. For the last three decades, loaded 12K metallic cartridges a year, but the previous two years have slowed down to about 7K. Pistol and revolver stuff for a lot of self defense training and all my rifle stuff for the volume of hunting I do which includes a lot of time on my range.

What I have added along the subject line of the topic are case conditioning tools to keep the flow of brass up to speed. I've often said I need to hire a full-time employee to cast my bullets, condition my brass, and track component inventory. I run at least six years of components in stock ahead of the need; that way an election cycle is not even a bump on my road. An old-timer in the '60s told me this. We tend to think the hoarding purge is a new thing, but it isn't. Just more people are doing it with the internet a big part of helping it happen.

One of four corners...

I agree with almost everything that has been said on this post but I sure would like to try an experiment. Let me take my guns & my loads that I have loaded to the range and see what they would do. Then let one of the Gurus on the forum, load using my equipment & loads and see how they shot with the Gurus pulling the trigger. I have always heard that " the nut behind the trigger is the biggest variable in shooting groups". I strongly suspect my groups would be 3rd rate at best when compared to the other groups!!!

I think the gurus and their equipment with the same components and specs vs any meticulous person with Lee equipment. Same rifle, same shooter, same components. Different loader and equipment. I think the only place it could be seen as different would be in ES and or on a benchrest gun at extended ranges.

I�m not willing to bet but I am willing to purchase 100 rounds of Lapua brass, two pounds of powder the same lot number, and 100 bullets of choice. That�s 50 for each loader to load.

First we need a known rifle and load, then two people willing to load who have ample experience. I can come up with most cheap dies but no bastard calibers please.

The loader would have to be willing to honestly give a $ total for any equipment used in the process. That�s from brass prep on.

Feel free to add to my thoughts. If we can finalize a plan I can have the components in two weeks or less I�m sure.

Also if anyone wants to play, no loads on the ragged edge of pressure. We do not want any mishaps. It can be your rifle and specs and you can shoot it, but the two loaders need to be independent with the data you provide.

I want to play.

CSD which roll would do you want?

The high dollar fancy equipment saves overall more time than anything else. Scale can matter if you don't have a good one but even the $4k Prometheus is a beam scale at heart which most anyone has around.

Everybody have a .308 Bolt action?

44.4 gr H-Varget under a 178 ELD-M or X is a known load.

Dee I agree that the biggest savings is time but there are far too many out there who think quality ammo can�t be made with basic equipment. I�ve heard heard Fireman echo the same sentiment about time being the benefit. Unfortunately I�ve also shot and won a competition with a Lee press and dies and a sub $200 scale when everyone else had as much in their reloading equipment as I had in my rifle plus equipment. They all but called me a liar when they ask about what I use to reload. That think is what I hope to put to bed for at least some on here who pay attention.

Fireman I agree about the .308 and that load. I want to find someone with an actual rifle and proven load for that rifle including, powder, primer, trim length, oal, etc.

Seen that be the load in many a .308. Ramball had me work one up for his bone stock Rem 700. Hornady brass, CCI-200, that powder charge, and a 178 A-Max put 5 shots inside 2" at 500 yards. I sent him the pic, he said "hell, I can't shoot that tight". I said, but your rifle and load can.

Up to a certain point they work just fine but one will plateau out at some point and be limited by equipment or tooling. Records are constantly being broke these days in the accuracy department and none are set by guys running your basic setup. A lot I'm sure is time related based but because the less time spent loading the more time spent shooting or refining the process.

No doubt the benchrest guys benefit from a precision scale and bullet seater. But the best my simple world can hope for is 4� clays to 1000. I feel at that game the guy with minimal equipment and an anal mindset can compete and win given the right rifle and glass. What tickles me is the guy with a Redding bullet seater building ammo for 100 yard hunting.

For whoever is in its 500-800 on paper for groups of 5. Further if you want to [censored] the venerable.308.

I'd love to play but lack the free time nor do I shoot paper farther than 300yds anything after is on steel.

I got into hand loading about 40+ years ago with a used green press, balance beam scales, powder dippers, manual primer seater and trickler. The manual was(I still have it) Why Not Load Your Own(1957) " by Whelen. That's all there was in those days. It worked and still does. I've upgraded to an RCBS powder dispenser. I've done long range shooting/hunting with my stuff. It's taken its share of most North American game. If I miss, it's my fault. And, at 76, no way I'm as steady as I used to be. I no longer shoot over 100 yards so could probably just use factory ammo.

I have friends that shoot long range and compete in 3gun and Cowboy shoots and have mad respect for someone who takes the time, money and discipline to pull off a 2500 yard cold shot.
As for spending money, unfortunately it happens in EVERY sport:
You can buy performance but you can't buy the skill to use it.

I shoot to satisfy me.
I only compete with myself and 99.9 percent of my shooting and hunting with rifles is between 70 and 140 yards.
I reload 100 percent of my hunting rounds on a LEE press with LEE dies.
While the 25 dollar LEE scale and 30 dollar powder measure preform very well for what I need if you follow their instructions, I use an old RCB balance beam and Hornady powder measure because I've had them forever.

Heck, I've loaded lots of 222 ammo on one of those little LEE Loader kits that comes with a powder dipper and you use with a hammer to set everything.
Even with those rudimentary tools, I produced good quality ammo that shot lots of deer and pigs in a Remington bolt gun.

The bottom line is and shall always remain: Given usable tools, are YOU up to performing the task at hand?