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Hornography #7526648 06/04/19 01:37 PM
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An in-depth article about the trophy hunting culture.

Hornography

Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7526691 06/04/19 02:16 PM
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Interesting take on "wildlife" compared to "alternate livestock". Thanks for posting!

Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7526725 06/04/19 02:57 PM
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Thanks for posting!

Re: Hornography [Re: ETexas Hunter] #7527198 06/05/19 12:06 AM
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Wow! What an article - seems all logical to me as to the progression of Texas deer hunting. Unfortunately I think the guy nailed it


You can't fix stupid
Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7527291 06/05/19 01:45 AM
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This is a smear campaign put out by TWA.

while not entirely untrue.....there is a lot of...well, lets say "opinions and assumptions" in this article.


due to my career field, I get to visit far more ranch properties than the average Joe hunter, and while places like the ones portrayed in the article certainly do exist, they represent a small percentage of commercial hunting operations or even high fenced ranches in general.

So many points we can touch on, but one of the most erroneous mentioned is the dollar amounts thrown around on these deer. Its actually cheaper to shoot a stocker buck that is 170" than it is to shoot a pasture raised buck of the same measurements. A lot of ranches put these out in the pasture for paid clients of oil field companies, true, but its often to turn an income while preserving their pasture raised bucks till maturity. Still, the $12k-$30k number in most instances is greatly exaggerated. Most deer that get shot that are stockers are well under $12k and most are $3500-$7500. There isn't a line out the door of people wanting to buy $30,000 deer to shoot.


A lot of breeding operations are used to buy and sell to ranches looking to enhance their deer herds, not just to raise deer to get shot that spring. Deer raised in pens on the ranch are released to enhance their genetics in the pasture. Do stocker bucks get shot? yes, but this is a small number of deer released onto ranches compared to the overall numbers.


We can cover the whole gamut of deer raising, high fences, etc....but this was a heavily biased piece, so one sided that I would be ashamed to have wrote it

Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7527299 06/05/19 01:53 AM
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Seems a little anti-Texas in general with his “faux-frontier” part...while I agree with the 60,000 lifted trucks that never see dirt, guess what, that’s everywhere these days except the coasts. And the drive for “showmanship” on the coast just comes in different ways other than a lifted truck. It’s still there. This society is a “show me” society and the ample examples of immediate gratification amongst its citizens are overbearingly abundant anywhere anyone wants to look.

Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7527311 06/05/19 02:04 AM
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parts are a bit over the top. also some good points that we should all pay attention to. but, i've been thinking/saying for years that deer hunting heading the direction that it is is it's own enemy. think of the amount of fuel that anti hunters can get from it easily, not to mention the fact that some hunters themselves are against it

Re: Hornography [Re: woodduckhunter] #7527324 06/05/19 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
parts are a bit over the top. also some good points that we should all pay attention to. but, i've been thinking/saying for years that deer hunting heading the direction that it is is it's own enemy. think of the amount of fuel that anti hunters can get from it easily, not to mention the fact that some hunters themselves are against it



what irks me is some people out there will read this and form an opinion on the subject that is based on someone else's opinion, not in any sort of fact.


The hunting community is extremely divisive of its own ranks and this is a textbook example of one of the main subjects.

Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7527326 06/05/19 02:15 AM
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Sad but true! Anybody can go shoot a white horn freak nowadays, just open your checkbook.

Re: Hornography [Re: SmallTownHunter] #7527353 06/05/19 02:37 AM
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Another point I was pondering today on my drive to the jobsite.....


its human nature to make things bigger, better, to go after the biggest & best, not the smallest or the average.

We admire certain cars for their speed and luxury, not their efficiency. Mansions grace the covers of magazines, not Tract homes or studio apartments. Teenagers adorn their walls with posters of women that more resemble wonder women or Jessica rabbit, not Olive Oil. How boring would Hemingways book have been if Santiago had caught and lost to sharks a wahoo or dorado instead of a grander Marlin?


This is human nature. The quest for bigger and better isn't exclusive to the hunting world. The author quotes a time in the 60's and 70's when he wanted to join the ranks of the hunting world and people were happy with a mediocre buck. Well, in the 60's and 70's half the state had no huntable populations so of course any deer was a good deer. That isn't the case today. Way back in the same time period a 5 lb native bass was a giant, now its a nice fish but nothing to write home about thanks to florida genetics and stocking programs. People are going to want to make more money, buy better cars, have more things, travel more places, kill bigger deer, etc. Some will do these things ethically, some will achieve them unethically. That's the real root issue here, it boils down to ethics.


Hunters have got to come to the realization that things are not and will not be the same as they were in grandpappys day, in most cases they are much, much better. As with anything there are some things that are sour but the same could be said of common practices back then ( hunting deer with dogs comes to mind, as most hunters would be appalled at the practice today ). The inter fighting that is going on is appalling.



Last edited by txtrophy85; 06/05/19 02:38 AM.
Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7527363 06/05/19 02:44 AM
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Hit the nail on the head. Points out even many breeders are sick about what they have wrought. It’s not hunting, it’s slaughter for dollars. Sad.

I do believe the tide is turning against it though and the house of cards is beginning to fall. Lots of articles like this and folks are steadily turning away from the HF canned hunt model. The market is reflecting it.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Hornography [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #7527383 06/05/19 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Hit the nail on the head. Points out even many breeders are sick about what they have wrought. It’s not hunting, it’s slaughter for dollars. Sad.

I do believe the tide is turning against it though and the house of cards is beginning to fall. Lots of articles like this and folks are steadily turning away from the HF canned hunt model. The market is reflecting it.




But the subject property they are talking about is such a minute % of ranches in Texas, yet they get 90% of the press

Re: Hornography [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #7527393 06/05/19 03:20 AM
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Its past my bedtime so I will have to rest up and reply to this tomorrow, hopefully. In the meantime im curious about Texastrophy85 comment about the article being a "smear champaign by TWA". Maybe I need to reread it but wasn't it a writer out of California writing for a journal out of God knows where? It doesn't appear to come from Texas at all much less a Texas organization. Greg Simons, a staunch TWA advocate, was interviewed and as far as I can tell no other mention of TWA. All he did was answer a few direct questions from the interviewer and didn't offer that much opinion or any opinion from TWA. TexasTrophy im not against you at all and you seem well informed and offered lots of good opinions so with all due respect im just asking you to enlighten me about the smear campaign.


Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Hornography [Re: freerange] #7527405 06/05/19 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by freerange
Its past my bedtime so I will have to rest up and reply to this tomorrow, hopefully. In the meantime im curious about Texastrophy85 comment about the article being a "smear champaign by TWA". Maybe I need to reread it but wasn't it a writer out of California writing for a journal out of God knows where? It doesn't appear to come from Texas at all much less a Texas organization. Greg Simons, a staunch TWA advocate, was interviewed and as far as I can tell no other mention of TWA. All he did was answer a few direct questions from the interviewer and didn't offer that much opinion or any opinion from TWA. TexasTrophy im not against you at all and you seem well informed and offered lots of good opinions so with all due respect im just asking you to enlighten me about the smear campaign.


The TDA and the TWA have been at odds for some time now. To people in the know about what’s going on, the fact that they interviewed and quoted Simmons and referred to other only as the “ranch manager” is a thinly veiled attempt at hiding the side the author was on. I can personally attest that you cannot just “throw up a high fence” and start getting $12k-$30k for a deer.

I was a member of TWA and side with their line of thinking majority of the time. But their witch hunt that all deer breeders are bad and they are the cause of and are spreading CWD is pure B.S imo. The article was as stated before, severely biased and offered no representation of ethical and legitimate high fence ranches and breeding operations, only the minority put and take places. It’s like saying that every lake in Texas that receives fish stockings are the equivalent of a catfish farm or kid fish trout pond.

My opinion is, If a person wants to breed deer to be sold and shot on his ranch, so be it. Ethically it’s not what I would do or be a part of but that’s a ethics issue between the hunters and the landowners participating, not a property rights issue as lot of factions are trying to make it. If a person has a ranch in an area with poor genetics, he high fences it for his own use and eradicates the native herd and brings in deer from a breeder, that’s his business. Again, it’s a personal choice.


My comments are not pro or anti high fence or pro or anti deer breeding. My comments stem from a heavily biased article posted here. Just like when people go to the polls and vote for a candidate, a large portion are basing their judgment on mis-information and are not fact based. I’m simply stating that people need real facts, not opinion pieces. This is something I would read straight out of huffington post. Next article to be written is that trophy hunting is Trumps fault





Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7527415 06/05/19 04:03 AM
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Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7527491 06/05/19 11:51 AM
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I didn’t read the article as biased either. It’s actually a pretty straightforward look at the state of things right now. Deer breeding and pen hunting doesn’t have the cachet it used to and is not looked upon very favorably by most these days. Folks are starting to open their eyes and look beyond huge racks as an accomplishment unto themselves. Even the “hunters” can only shoot so many bigguns on demand before it’s not fun any more.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7527510 06/05/19 12:22 PM
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txtrophy, i've had the same opinion on deer hunting and where it was headed from when all this started. what you stated about ego driven people is true, but they proved the point themselves. When it all started pen "stocker" or "shooter" bucks were worth a lot more than they are today. How many domesticated, pen raised, whatever you want to call it deer does one have to shoot before it isn't exciting anymore? To those on the outside "hunters" might seem like an united group of people, but it is actually very divisive. which can be detrimental going forward when hunting and gun ownership rights become more threatened.

Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7527524 06/05/19 12:32 PM
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Yes everyone wants to talk about “division”, but deer breeding and canned hunting pose an existential threat to hunting as a whole. Why? Because it’s really not hunting, but being is lumped in as hunting. Most states police it by simply not allowing it. I used to think this had to be done on a national level, but it appears that the disappearing market is going to do the job without that being necessary.

People are fast becoming “woke”, as the young people say.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7527552 06/05/19 12:59 PM
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hold on Newt, we got a runaway
Re: Hornography [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #7527567 06/05/19 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Yes everyone wants to talk about “division”, but deer breeding and canned hunting pose an existential threat to hunting as a whole. Why? Because it’s really not hunting, but being is lumped in as hunting. Most states police it by simply not allowing it. I used to think this had to be done on a national level, but it appears that the disappearing market is going to do the job without that being necessary.

People are fast becoming “woke”, as the young people say.



I hearby dub you, " Nog the Awoken"

you had to go and use that word didn't you...… I just don't like It when some leftist hippie throws shade at a group of people without giving them a chance to clap back.



Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7527597 06/05/19 01:49 PM
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Lol I’m not even sure I know what it means, other than finally realizing something. smile

I don’t think it would apply to me though, because I’ve never been “not woke” when it comes to deer breeding and pen hunting.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Hornography [Re: txtrophy85] #7527625 06/05/19 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by freerange
Its past my bedtime so I will have to rest up and reply to this tomorrow, hopefully. In the meantime im curious about Texastrophy85 comment about the article being a "smear champaign by TWA". Maybe I need to reread it but wasn't it a writer out of California writing for a journal out of God knows where? It doesn't appear to come from Texas at all much less a Texas organization. Greg Simons, a staunch TWA advocate, was interviewed and as far as I can tell no other mention of TWA. All he did was answer a few direct questions from the interviewer and didn't offer that much opinion or any opinion from TWA. TexasTrophy im not against you at all and you seem well informed and offered lots of good opinions so with all due respect im just asking you to enlighten me about the smear campaign.


The TDA and the TWA have been at odds for some time now. To people in the know about what’s going on, the fact that they interviewed and quoted Simmons and referred to other only as the “ranch manager” is a thinly veiled attempt at hiding the side the author was on. I can personally attest that you cannot just “throw up a high fence” and start getting $12k-$30k for a deer.

I was a member of TWA and side with their line of thinking majority of the time. But their witch hunt that all deer breeders are bad and they are the cause of and are spreading CWD is pure B.S imo. The article was as stated before, severely biased and offered no representation of ethical and legitimate high fence ranches and breeding operations, only the minority put and take places. It’s like saying that every lake in Texas that receives fish stockings are the equivalent of a catfish farm or kid fish trout pond.

My opinion is, If a person wants to breed deer to be sold and shot on his ranch, so be it. Ethically it’s not what I would do or be a part of but that’s a ethics issue between the hunters and the landowners participating, not a property rights issue as lot of factions are trying to make it. If a person has a ranch in an area with poor genetics, he high fences it for his own use and eradicates the native herd and brings in deer from a breeder, that’s his business. Again, it’s a personal choice.


My comments are not pro or anti high fence or pro or anti deer breeding. My comments stem from a heavily biased article posted here. Just like when people go to the polls and vote for a candidate, a large portion are basing their judgment on mis-information and are not fact based. I’m simply stating that people need real facts, not opinion pieces. This is something I would read straight out of huffington post. Next article to be written is that trophy hunting is Trumps fault





I will give a thorough reply when I get time but before this goes too far(and likely will) I want to say Txtrophy has mostly very good opinions. I also side with Nogalais on most parts. More to come...


Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7527665 06/05/19 02:43 PM
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I’m not disagreeing with Nog. I agree that the market ( and general desire for high fenced hunts ) has waned. I used to have no issues selling a high fenced place now the market has turned to low fenced place with people deliberately passing on high fenced ranches for a number of reasons. Deer that used to cost $10k can now be shot for $3500 because the market is saturated. And I agree that breeding deer in pens is a slippery slope ethically and good intentions can easily be perverted into a quasi science experiment.

My beef with the article posted was it paints all breeding operations and high fence ranches with the same brush and that just isn’t so. I’ve been to ranches that were truly canned hunting places. Not for me personally. But that represents maybe the 1% of high fenced ranches. Then they threw the CWD jab in there which again imo is a truck load of steamy B.S.



Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7527668 06/05/19 02:46 PM
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But I think we can all agree that canned hunts for breeder pen deer would be a lot more exciting if done at long range with savage and tikka 6.5 creedmoors

Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7527700 06/05/19 03:35 PM
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The winds of change are even apparent on here. 2 years ago this thread would have already been 12 pages long with replies from folks defending the breeders and “hunters”.

I doubt anyone would defend a Savage though. smile


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


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