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South Africa murder #7526179 06/03/19 09:04 PM
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Not a good sign:

>>>Stellenbosch murder

I know some South African outfitters advertise on here. Perhaps they can provide some on-the-ground reality. 'Hope it's not a sign of things to come. Prayers for South Africa.


...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7526253 06/03/19 10:28 PM
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Gonna get a lot worse before it gets better.....


Originally Posted By: skinnerback
Milf does the trick.

"You're statistically more likely to be killed by Hillary Clinton than an NRA member. - PolitiDiva

"You Cannot Simultaneously Be Politically Correct And Intellectually Honest!"
Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7526254 06/03/19 10:28 PM
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I'll be dead 'fore it gets better. 'Ce la vie.


...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7526410 06/04/19 02:08 AM
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I would love to hear some PH’s chime in.

I talked to several recently and while they acknowledge the violence has happened they remain steadfast it’s safe to go hunting over there

Several have made references to visiting along our southern border. If one would listen to the news it makes it sound like a war zone, yet go visit and it isn’t anything what they make it seem like

Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7526467 06/04/19 04:04 AM
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The respect of property rights is a cornerstone of civilization. A country without respect for life, liberty and property is not a country.


NRA Patron & DSC Lifer
Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7526661 06/04/19 01:45 PM
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I could say a lot about this but I won't. I have seen where farmers and landowners are banding together and forming militias and hiring "trained" security IE ex military. It will get real bad before they realize what a mistake they've made.


How come everybody I meet is a deer hunting expert?
Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7526688 06/04/19 02:12 PM
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Hello to all on the THF,

I am the US rep for an African Safari outfitter based in the Limpopo province of South Africa. I have been fortunate enough to have traveled all over Southern Africa over the last 15 years visiting 5 countries and all of the provinces in RSA. Crime is a reality in Africa like it is in many places all over the world... Africa is a 3rd-world continent, and an impoverished continent for the majority of its people. It is also a politically corrupt continent which is the root of 99% of Africa's crime, along with political and social unrest. With that said, Most of the countries in the southern end including South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, Mozambique, Zambia, Zimbabwe, and Tanzania are among the most stable destinations and I use the term "stable" subjectively...My definition of stable is that I personally would not hesitate to return to any of these counties as a visiting hunter or tourist. In all of my travels, I have never felt threatened, or even uncomfortable with my wife and I often being the only white faces among a sea of a thousand black faces. Most of these countries rely heavily on US tourism and hunting for their economic base and source of employment, and they don't take it for granted even though their governments' might...

Regarding the issue of these farm murders, unfortunately these events are nothing new in South Africa's history. Farm murders for the most part, are black Africans preying on white farm owners. The media very deliberately tries to push the narrative that these murders are racially motivated, but the reality is most of these attacks are robberies and crimes of opportunity. Most of these farmers that are attacked are located in very remote, rural parts of the country. The farmers are known by the would-be attackers and they prey specifically on the elderly and the unarmed. There is little to no law enforcement in most of these rural areas. Many of these attacks go unsolved because the South African Police, by and large, are ineffective and incompetent. This is true of all crimes committed in RSA and not just the black on white crime. The statistics dictate that crime is actually on a 7-year decrease in RSA although the murder rate has actually increased, and most murders and violent crimes are black on black... In specific regard to the wine farmer murder, I can't speak to the details, but it sounds as if he was frustrated with the lack of law enforcement with squatters on his land, took matters into his own hands, and made some enemies for it. Not to diminish the tragedy, but this is not the typical example of a robbery/farm attack.

The other issue getting a lot of media attention in the last couple of years is the RSA government's threat to confiscate and re-appropriate land owned by whites. This is also an issue that dates back to the end of Apartheid in 1994. Every Black political candidate in South Africa has used this rhetoric at election time, and it was no different when Ramaphosa was elected back in February of 2018, replacing Zuma who threatened the same rhetoric for his 9 years in office prior, and so on... To date, the RSA government has repurchased white-owned land and re-appropriated land that has been confiscated in crime or tax default, but no private, legally owned land has been taken by force. Ramaphosa, like his predecessors, understand that 80% of RSA's economy is generated by 10% of the population. They also realize that this same land seizure policy devastated Zimbabwe's economy several years ago when Mugabe did it... Land seizures would have a devastating impact on the country's ability to produce agriculture and cultivate tourism which are the mainstays of the economy. Could the RSA government make good on this threat in the future? Doubtful, because Ramaphosa would be doing it by now if he did not understand the reality of the devastating economic affects. This is really just more saber-rattling that the white citizens have been dealing with since 1994...For us, it's business as usual. My boss just purchased another 50,000 acres of hunting property last year, so they are taking this newest round of rhetoric in stride just as they have been for 25 years.

So, is it safe for a US Citizen to go on safari in southern Africa? Certain destinations in Africa, need to be regarded the same as if you were traveling to any other major city in the USA like Chicago, New York City, or Baltimore as comparable examples. Common sense must be used, and there are just certain parts of town that you need to avoid. Anyone traveling to South Africa for a safari will likely have to fly into Johannesburg which is a major metropolitan international city that has it's share of crime. However, every single reputable outfitter that I am aware of will have a meet & greet service picking you up at the airport and escorting through the city. All of the outfitters and PHs are armed and open carry is permitted with a licence in RSA. Safari guests will be escorted at all times and you will never be left on your own at any point in time during your safari. Once out of the city, you will be headed out to camp and likely remain in a rural hunting area for your entire stay. The outfitters up in the Limpopo don't even have locks on their doors. Any would-be criminals know who the outfitters and the hunters are, and these would be the last folks they would ever consider to bother. I have never heard of any safari guest of any outfitter in South Africa or Namibia involved in a situation where their safety was in jeopardy. I have heard of random instances of pick-pockets in the airports and hustlers attempting the shake down naive tourists for a few dollars but this goes back to what I said about being aware, using common sense, and avoiding obvious situations that would make you an easy mark for a petty thief.

Bottom line is that no armed government militia is going to show up in the bush and seize the property of the outfitter you are hunting with on your safari. The very few people of color that you will encounter up in the bush are likely employed by a safari company or a safari related business. These folks are shy, warm, welcoming people, and they are happy to have you in their country spending money. The US dollar is strong in Africa and in my opinion, there is no better time to visit. I have been preaching for years that dollar for dollar, there is no denying the excellent value you get from an African safari when compared to any outfitted hunt anywhere else on this planet. Do your research and find an experienced, reputable outfitter, and go have the adventure of a lifetime. Just use common sense as you would traveling anywhere in the world. PM me anytime. I would be happy to address any specific questions or concerns.


Last edited by Firehuntfish; 06/04/19 03:59 PM.
Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7526723 06/04/19 02:52 PM
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firehuntandfish….Thank you for your reply.


When I booked a trip to Limpopo last august on a whim, I immediately went to researching the safety of the country as I am bringing my wife. I contacted several outfitters, made clear that I had already booked with another party and was only after information, they all shared the exact same story posted above. One told me that in RSA, they are afraid to travel to the United States because of ANTIFA and how that is propped up by the media over there. When I heard that I laughed.

We are flying into Johannesburg and everyone is aware of the crime there. But we are flying out of Houston and trust me, the 3rd or 5th wards there are nowhere I would want to be caught in, day or night. So like you said, everything is relative. To hear the national media tell it, everything south of San Antonio is being over run by a sea of illegals led by the cartels and I can tell you that is not the case.

As with pickpockets and petty theft.....go to the French quarter in New Orleans and you will have your fill of that pretty quickly...NO is the Murder Capital of the U.S and that doesent stop hundreds of thousands from going there.




Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7526786 06/04/19 03:53 PM
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The media does no one any favors in regard to these kinds of things... Fake news and media agendas are not exclusive to the USA.

The African outfitters are between a rock and a hard place on all of these issues. If they attempt to put the reality into proper prospective, they are accused of lying to prospective guests to get the business. And, if they make no comments, they are accused of ignoring or downplaying any perceived problems in order to get the business.... That is why many outfitters are reluctant to make any comments on these public forums. It is a no-win situation for most of them regardless of what they say.

I recall a few years back that we had several cancellations and postponements due to the Ebola virus outbreaks occurring in west equatorial Africa 3,500 miles away. The South African government was the first to invoke a travel ban from these host countries. Obama refused to do it in the USA almost a year after the fact even thought we had several reported cases in the USA. As it so happens, there was never 1 case of Ebola in RSA during this time although there were several cases documented in the USA. Ironically, you had a better chance statistically of getting exposed to Ebola in New York City than in South Africa. Yet, to hear the media report on it, you would think that the entire continent of Africa was going to be dead from Ebola in 6 months...

These political and social issues have existed in Africa for centuries and they aren't going away. We have discussed at length our marketing strategies going forward dealing with them as they arise. Our philosophy is to be as honest as possible with our clients to allow them to make informed decisions. And with that, we have always, and will continue to do everything in our power to create the safest environment possible for our guests. We have never and will never subject our guests to any compromising situations where their safety would be at risk. And as I mentioned, this is not just us... This remains the philosophy of any reputable outfitter offering safaris in Africa. Besides, the anti-hunting activists will destroy Africa long before any war or plague.

Last edited by Firehuntfish; 06/04/19 04:04 PM.
Re: South Africa murder [Re: txtrophy85] #7526897 06/04/19 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85

But we are flying out of Houston and trust me, the 3rd or 5th wards there are nowhere I would want to be caught in, day or night.



Heh. I live in 3rd ward. Tens of thousands of students commute to the 3rd ward every day to attend University of Houston or Texas Southern University. I'm not a student, but I've lived in the 3rd ward for 5 years and haven't had a single crime committed against me. Not saying it doesn't happen, but there are areas considered nicer in Houston that have higher rates of crime (Montrose/Midtown). The majority of the 3rd ward is actually a nice, quiet neighborhood. The media will tell you otherwise. Sure, there are several areas of 3rd ward that I wouldn't visit at night... but most of the 3rd ward is actually a pleasant place to live. There is about half a square mile I wouldn't walk my dogs in out of the total 2.5 square miles considered to be the 3rd ward. I admit it's changed over the past decade (thanks to gentrification)... but I wanted to point out that despite what you hear - especially from the media - things aren't always as bad as they seem.

I've been on hunts to South Africa and Namibia. Felt completely safe each trip. My thinking is the "bad guys" in these countries know not to mess with foreigners. That's where the $$$ comes in and they know that any incidents with foreigners will be heavily investigated and punishments will be more severe.

Consider Mexico as an example. You hear about a huge amount of violence between nationals, but rarely any incidents with foreigners/visitors. I've been going to Mexico several times a year for the past few years to visit my wife's family. Spent 2 months there last year. Despite being outside of tourist areas and in states with travel warnings - I've never felt in danger. I may be lucky... but I've also heard from locals that the cartels in Mexico know the value of tourists and the dangers of messing with them... and there are severe consequences for cartel members who commit crimes against foreigners. I imagine the situation there is similar to other countries. Even bad guys realize that "biting the hand that feeds you" is a bad idea.

Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7526970 06/04/19 07:38 PM
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goldy is there now....

Re: South Africa murder [Re: Firehuntfish] #7526974 06/04/19 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Firehuntfish
I recall a few years back that we had several cancellations and postponements due to the Ebola virus outbreaks occurring in west equatorial Africa 3,500 miles away.


There was a guy on this forum at the time that pretty much knew more than anybody about Africa, and anywhere else in the world for that matter, and he warned us we were gonna die if we set foot anywhere on the continent. He comes back from time to time, but he's "gone" a lot. roflmao


...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7527048 06/04/19 09:06 PM
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My expericance with 3rd ward was about 15 years ago visiting my buddy when he was at U of H. It wasn’t as nice then but I did survive.

As far as travel goes, I interviewed an outfitter about hunts for Tur in Azerbaijan and Kyrgyzstan and the safety there and he said the highest level of alert for his hunters is traveling to Mexico. Go figure.

Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7527097 06/04/19 09:41 PM
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I've loved my trips to Africa, especially Namibia. Sure there are dangerous places everywhere, BUT in SA you have a president and a government who not only supports this type of barbaric behavior, they to nothing to the perpetrators at all, nothing. If you think it's not a huge problem you're fooling yourselves. Odds are no hunter will ever see anything close to that over there hunting, but it is a HUGE problem that will only get worse.

Face it, the country of SA is 95%+ black, and they hate white folks. Just the way it is.

Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7527274 06/05/19 01:33 AM
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I'm just grateful I was born here in the USA.


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Re: South Africa murder [Re: Jgraider] #7527521 06/05/19 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Jgraider
Face it, the country of SA is 95%+ black, and they hate white folks. Just the way it is.


I completely disagree with this... I would be interested to know specifically what events you have personally experienced that make you feel that all blacks in South Africa have this open hatred for the whites? I have not had that experience in my 20 years of traveling all over southern Africa. As I stated in a previous post, my wife and I have often been the only white faces among dozens if not hundreds of black Africans transiting through small airports, towns, restaurants, and marketplaces. Our experiences have been that these folks are for the most part courteous, helpful, welcoming, and glad to have you in their countries spending money.

The the only negative interactions I have experienced have been the occasional encounter with an indifferent Immigration officer (who are not friendly to the blacks either) or the handful of individuals at the airport hustling to carry your luggage for a tip. In Zimbabwe around Vic Falls where it can be very touristy, there are lots of street vendors, and locals hustling to sell you something, but never in a threatening or unfriendly manner. A polite, firm "no thanks" dispatches them quickly and harmlessly enough.

Out in the bush while hunting or fishing, it's a totally different culture altogether... These Africans are very shy, humble, and hard-working folks. On safari you will be treated like royalty, especially by the black Africans... The vast majority of black Africans we have working for us at the lodges are 3rd and 4th generations of families, and they are considered to be part of the family by the owner.

Now, if you are talking about going into one of the shanty towns for a visit, or a midnight stroll through downtown Jo'burg, I would advise against it... But, I would advise anyone of any color or race against that. The robbers do not discriminate racially...

Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7527569 06/05/19 01:15 PM
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We'll just agree to disagree then. My PH told me on several occasions that even though he had some very good and loyal black workers on his farm, and has had for over 20 years, if a race war broke out he could absolutely guarantee which side they'd be on, and it wouldnt be his in spite of how good he has treated them over the years. I would imagine he knows a lot more about it than you or I do.

Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7527624 06/05/19 02:04 PM
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I've hunted southern Africa a few times. The last couple of times it began to dawn on me, being an American, with all the countless blessings that, and God Almighty have given me, that I couldn't begin to understand how things really are in African nations. Too many variables - the culture of the indigenous tribes of that country, the culture of the "tribes" that colonized that area, how much our U.S. government and the UK have "mucked about" there before, etc. I respect the hunting industry in those countries and how they persevere through thick and thin.

Trust what your outfitter on the ground tells you, he's ultimately responsible for your safety, but check all available news sources when you can. Of course, take it all with a grain of salt and never let your "situational awareness" ever go slack. Sometimes it is TIA and when things go bad, they can go very, very quickly. Recently other, less stable countries to the northwest have had stuff go south quickly and had hunters and outfitters getting the hell out in a rush.

The reality is, this is how most of the world operates. We just don't know how good we have it.


...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
Re: South Africa murder [Re: Jgraider] #7527677 06/05/19 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Jgraider
We'll just agree to disagree then. My PH told me on several occasions that even though he had some very good and loyal black workers on his farm, and has had for over 20 years, if a race war broke out he could absolutely guarantee which side they'd be on, and it wouldnt be his in spite of how good he has treated them over the years. I would imagine he knows a lot more about it than you or I do.


LOL.. Yes sir...I recall we seem to have agreed to disagree a few times in the past as well on different forum subjects...

You made a pretty bold, sweeping statement that I found to contradict every experience I have every had traveling throughout Africa in a 20-year span. I simply asked for you to provide any detailed examples of when or how you personally have felt that the blacks in Africa have treated you with contempt... Now, you answer with well, "My PH told me".... I asked what you have personally experienced as safari client yourself?

I have made no claims here to presume the opinion of race relations from your PH's perspective...He is certainly entitled to his own opinion...Maybe your PH has a very different relationship with his workers and the local community than we do? I have only attested to what I have personally experienced as an American safari client, employee, and tourist in what amounts to be about 350-plus days on the ground in Africa spanning a generation in several different countries.... The great thing about these forums is that folks reading along take take in all of the information and decide for themselves.

Best of luck to you on any future safaris. Since you have been more than once, I assume you enjoyed yourself to some extent? I surely hope the prospect of an impending race war doesn't keep you from going back?

Re: South Africa murder [Re: Firehuntfish] #7527881 06/05/19 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Firehuntfish


LOL.. Yes sir...I recall we seem to have agreed to disagree a few times in the past as well on different forum subjects...

You made a pretty bold, sweeping statement that I found to contradict every experience I have every had traveling throughout Africa in a 20-year span. I simply asked for you to provide any detailed examples of when or how you personally have felt that the blacks in Africa have treated you with contempt... Now, you answer with well, "My PH told me".... I asked what you have personally experienced as safari client yourself?




So my experiences are different than yours, and my PH may have a different perspective.....so what. Doesn't make you right and me wrong, or vice versa, just different. If I were someone like you who makes his living selling SA hunts I'd probably take your position as well.

I'll take Namibia over anything SA offers, BTW.



Last edited by Jgraider; 06/05/19 07:05 PM.
Re: South Africa murder [Re: Jgraider] #7528047 06/05/19 10:33 PM
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[/quote]

So my experiences are different than yours, and my PH may have a different perspective.....so what. Doesn't make you right and me wrong, or vice versa, just different. If I were someone like you who makes his living selling SA hunts I'd probably take your position as well.

I'll take Namibia over anything SA offers, BTW.


[/quote]


I never said I was right and you were wrong.... You stated that the RSA was 95% black folks and they hate white people. The actual statistics are closer to 76% black African, 10% White African, 9% colored (indigenous South Africans), and about 5% Asian and other.... Regardless, I asked you specifically what bad experiences you personally had with racial issues on your own travels to Africa, and you still haven't stated any. You are basing this off of what your PH has told you which is fine, but that doesn't answer the question, nor does it provide evidence to back up your initial statement.

As for my personal agenda, I am definitely promoting African hunting, but not to make a living from it. I am not a booking agent, and I don't sell hunts. I am a simple fireman and my wife tends bar. Probably like most folks on here, we work lots of hours and save up our money to go hunting and fishing as much as we can before we die... I only represent one African outfitter, and I help with their US marketing efforts as a gesture of gratitude from a 20-year friendship with the Els Family. I sincerely hope that every US hunter has the opportunity to visit and hunt somewhere in Africa at least once in their lifetime... It doesn't have to be South Africa. All of the southern African countries have fantastic hunting opportunities, but none offer them at the same value as South African in my opinion.... I love Namibia too. Spent 3 weeks up in the Caprivi tiger fishing my last trip over. BTW, Namibia is only about 6% White African... Does your PH feel the blacks in Namibia hate the whites there as well, or is that just an RSA issue?

Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7528054 06/05/19 10:45 PM
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RSA is where I heard it, and the country that consistently makes the news of blacks murdering white farm owners and nothing being done about it, not Namibia. My PH in Namibia feels it is much more stable there than SA, for obvious reasons, but will admit anything is possible. He was a Commander in the former South West Africa war of Independence. He's a badass. My thoughts and experiences are in no way an attack on your personally.

Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7528282 06/06/19 04:51 AM
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I was in SA two years ago. I’ll say up front that I would go back again.

A friend of mine is from there and I went and stayed with him and travelled with him through the country. Nothing in the US compares to the security there. Every home I saw had an exterior high fence, burglar bars on all doors and windows, motion sensors outside, motion sensors inside, and more burglar bars inside the home that walled off the bedrooms from the rest of the house. The poor farmers families have to stay locked in their bedroom-jail even during the day—-the city folk usually just lock the bedroom jail at night. The thieves are quick and well trained.

All that said, the locals are quite accustomed to dealing in this environment and taking care of visitors. If you want to go, then go. It’s a beautiful country.

My two cents worth: modern farming is very hard work that requires brains and long hours. Anyone who has not been farming that thinks they can go take farmland and get rich is a fool.

Re: South Africa murder [Re: Creekrunner] #7528301 06/06/19 06:29 AM
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Buddy is going to Cameroon next week and been all over many times. Never had any issues outside political unrest which was not race related. I would tag a long with him in a second if possible. Sad what happened though to the farmer. No excuse but something was brewing. My coworker came from Zimbabwe who was from there and not white and would have suffered the same fate years ago if he didn't leave!! Race didn't matter. Went from having lawn care, chef, and maid to living in a one bedroom apartment but got health and retirement benefits over here.

How many murders happened south of I-30 this year.... All the headlines say Dallas. Too bad it doesn't deter folks from moving to Collin county every second.

Re: South Africa murder [Re: Jgraider] #7528351 06/06/19 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Jgraider
RSA is where I heard it, and the country that consistently makes the news of blacks murdering white farm owners and nothing being done about it, not Namibia. My PH in Namibia feels it is much more stable there than SA, for obvious reasons, but will admit anything is possible. He was a Commander in the former South West Africa war of Independence. He's a badass. My thoughts and experiences are in no way an attack on your personally.


I didn't take your comments personally, and I didn't think they were meant as an attack. I'm not a snowflake.. grin But, thanks for saying so anyway... I encourage any opposing opinions to be discussed as long as those opinions are based on fact or personal experience. My only trouble is with inaccurate information and hearsay...

I will also acknowledge that many white Africans old enough to have lived through the Bush Wars or who served in the military pre-Apartheid have a completely different perspective. Lots of these ex-military are jaded and I honestly don't blame them... They fought for a country that they feel is being taken away from them by a new generation with a socialist agenda.. Any of us here in the USA can certainly relate to that...

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