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Crow Native American wins hunting case... #7516157 05/20/19 08:36 PM
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...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7516168 05/20/19 08:43 PM
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Been following that. Very interested to see how that plays out in the Bighorns. Have hunted there several times.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7516232 05/20/19 09:50 PM
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For folks not familiar with the case, here's a quick run down.

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/tribal-dispute-hits-supreme-court-with-trump-support


"One cannot be a mediocre squirrel hunter, and at the same time a skillful deer hunter. The two techniques go together." Francis E. Sell
Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7516236 05/20/19 09:59 PM
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Some real issues with this I feel. The Treaty was poorly written way back when. Way too much left for personal interpretation back then, and even more so now in this political climate. Curious if there is a statute on how many generations removed from the original person whom received a roll number that can claim Native American rights/benefits? I would assume indefinitely if they are 100% pure blooded Native Americans. But if and when various ethnicities get intermixed into this, and the “percent” of Native American blood lowers, is there a cutoff at which point one is no longer considered eligible due to a “low percentage of Native American blood”?

Not trying to start a politically motivated argument nor am I trying to be racially insensitive. Simply just looking for some education on this. This ruling could be quite detrimental to the hunting community as it virtually now has set a precedent that if you can prove you are of “Native American descent” there is no season for you to have to hunt within nor is there any public uninhabited piece of land that they are off limits too. At least that’s how I interpreted it. Hopefully I misinterpreted it.

Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7516239 05/20/19 10:02 PM
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Interesting. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Native Americans were screwed, lied to, and brutalized. And I can see the guys argument. The US has a treaty with the crow Indians that state he can hunt on unoccupied federal lands. National forest = clearly federal lands. No houses in the national forest = clearly unoccupied. I wonder if the US Gov has a similar treaty with the Cherokee. hmmm.... nidea


Originally Posted by txhuntingguide
If I choose to hunt in a coon tail hat, a pink tootoo and hip waders that is my fine...
Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7516244 05/20/19 10:04 PM
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The wife is 14% "Andean" Native American. (I always knew that Bolivian grandfather was lying. "Basque" my azz.) 'Hoping to "guide" my wife on a hunt real soon. bolt


...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Theringworm] #7516246 05/20/19 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Theringworm
Some real issues with this I feel. The Treaty was poorly written way back when. Way too much left for personal interpretation back then, and even more so now in this political climate. Curious if there is a statute on how many generations removed from the original person whom received a roll number that can claim Native American rights/benefits? I would assume indefinitely if they are 100% pure blooded Native Americans. But if and when various ethnicities get intermixed into this, and the “percent” of Native American blood lowers, is there a cutoff at which point one is no longer considered eligible due to a “low percentage of Native American blood”?

Not trying to start a politically motivated argument nor am I trying to be racially insensitive. Simply just looking for some education on this. This ruling could be quite detrimental to the hunting community as it virtually now has set a precedent that if you can prove you are of “Native American descent” there is no season for you to have to hunt within nor is there any public uninhabited piece of land that they are off limits too. At least that’s how I interpreted it. Hopefully I misinterpreted it.


It only applies to the one treaty, one tribe and general location in southern MT/northern WY.
It doesn’t mean that all Native Americans can hunt all uninhabited lands.
It does mean that if other treaties for other tribes have similar language that the territory later gaining statehood will not be a defense to enforcement.
Unexpectedly, the Trump administration is on the side of the Native Americans in these types of disputes.



Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7516353 05/21/19 12:03 AM
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Is this the same tribe as Elizabeth Warren?

Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: maximus_flavius] #7516369 05/21/19 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by maximus_flavius
Is this the same tribe as Elizabeth Warren?


The Crow are not to be trifled with. Never have been.


...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7517844 05/22/19 07:59 PM
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In my view and from what I understand, the argument really came down to two things:

1. What are unoccupied lands?
At the time of the treaty, unoccupied lands really meant lands that were not under statehood. Once Montana and Wyoming became states, those lands are now occupied. All of the land in the state is considered occupied as they are all lands under a governance. (Kind of like we occupy Puerto Rico)

2. Is the game really a federal resource or a resource that the Native tribes have relied on since the treaty?
In my opinion, the answer is no to both. The Native tribes definitely have not relied on Elk in the area because there were NONE for a very long time.
When written, it was widely thought that the resource of game would not be around forever because they were being market hunted in to extinction/extirpation. The fact is that Elk were 100% extirpated from the area, therefore this is a resource that belongs to the state and therefore the state is able to control the resource.

I think this ruling is a VERY slippery slope and could take the opportunities away from the population.

Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Ktexas14] #7517852 05/22/19 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Ktexas14
In my view and from what I understand, the argument really came down to two things:

1. What are unoccupied lands?
At the time of the treaty, unoccupied lands really meant lands that were not under statehood. Once Montana and Wyoming became states, those lands are now occupied. All of the land in the state is considered occupied as they are all lands under a governance. (Kind of like we occupy Puerto Rico)

2. Is the game really a federal resource or a resource that the Native tribes have relied on since the treaty?
In my opinion, the answer is no to both. The Native tribes definitely have not relied on Elk in the area because there were NONE for a very long time.
When written, it was widely thought that the resource of game would not be around forever because they were being market hunted in to extinction/extirpation. The fact is that Elk were 100% extirpated from the area, therefore this is a resource that belongs to the state and therefore the state is able to control the resource.

I think this ruling is a VERY slippery slope and could take the opportunities away from the population.



Nailed it from my understanding also the fact the current wildlife was re-introduced after the treaty is big to me, second NF designations make it occupied, even after state hood ended the treaty


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Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7518130 05/23/19 03:27 AM
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Yup....stupid ruling...... 2cents


Originally Posted By: skinnerback
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Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7518216 05/23/19 12:12 PM
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I wonder of there is anything similar to for the Choctaw in Oklahoma. If so my wife is getting a new deer rifle and the girls will be participating Sooner than later. banana velvet buck here I, ooops I mean here they come.

Last edited by ducknbass; 05/23/19 12:13 PM.
Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7518228 05/23/19 12:31 PM
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NA rights can be justified in many cases, but they are often abused to the detriment of the wildlife. While on Vancouver Island, the natives were netting salmon making their way upriver and selling them on the spot for $10 a piece. (Salmon were not yet in season for everyone else. Even when they are, the limits were very strict.)

That’s not subsistence, that’s taking a resource for profit.

Thankfully, in most places they now employ conservation practices, if for no other reason than it doesn’t do any good to wipe out all the game.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: BOBO the Clown] #7518239 05/23/19 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by Ktexas14
In my view and from what I understand, the argument really came down to two things:

1. What are unoccupied lands?
At the time of the treaty, unoccupied lands really meant lands that were not under statehood. Once Montana and Wyoming became states, those lands are now occupied. All of the land in the state is considered occupied as they are all lands under a governance. (Kind of like we occupy Puerto Rico)

2. Is the game really a federal resource or a resource that the Native tribes have relied on since the treaty?
In my opinion, the answer is no to both. The Native tribes definitely have not relied on Elk in the area because there were NONE for a very long time.
When written, it was widely thought that the resource of game would not be around forever because they were being market hunted in to extinction/extirpation. The fact is that Elk were 100% extirpated from the area, therefore this is a resource that belongs to the state and therefore the state is able to control the resource.

I think this ruling is a VERY slippery slope and could take the opportunities away from the population.



Nailed it from my understanding also the fact the current wildlife was re-introduced after the treaty is big to me, second NF designations make it occupied, even after state hood ended the treaty



Pretty wild deal for sure, I don't really understand how they came to the ruling that they did. It seems to me the definitions to me are pretty clear.

Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Ktexas14] #7518247 05/23/19 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ktexas14
Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by Ktexas14
In my view and from what I understand, the argument really came down to two things:

1. What are unoccupied lands?
At the time of the treaty, unoccupied lands really meant lands that were not under statehood. Once Montana and Wyoming became states, those lands are now occupied. All of the land in the state is considered occupied as they are all lands under a governance. (Kind of like we occupy Puerto Rico)

2. Is the game really a federal resource or a resource that the Native tribes have relied on since the treaty?
In my opinion, the answer is no to both. The Native tribes definitely have not relied on Elk in the area because there were NONE for a very long time.
When written, it was widely thought that the resource of game would not be around forever because they were being market hunted in to extinction/extirpation. The fact is that Elk were 100% extirpated from the area, therefore this is a resource that belongs to the state and therefore the state is able to control the resource.

I think this ruling is a VERY slippery slope and could take the opportunities away from the population.



Nailed it from my understanding also the fact the current wildlife was re-introduced after the treaty is big to me, second NF designations make it occupied, even after state hood ended the treaty



Pretty wild deal for sure, I don't really understand how they came to the ruling that they did. It seems to me the definitions to me are pretty clear.


The dissenting opinion pretty much mirrors you and I, the majority ruled statehood nor National Forest nullified the treaty or met occupied definitions.

An Indian game warden poaching and trying to cover is now the face of Crow Game Management, ironically pretty much follows suit with my experience with other tribes in observations and in charges I have filed for.


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Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7518253 05/23/19 01:16 PM
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This decision was actually pretty predictable. Gorsuch is from Colorado and his decisions for many years as a 10th Circuit appellate judge were largely in favor of tribal rights. Many tribes lobbied for his confirmation to the Supreme Court.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7518286 05/23/19 01:57 PM
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Sure seems like this may snowball into something way bigger than what it is.

Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Jimbo] #7518294 05/23/19 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Jimbo
Sure seems like this may snowball into something way bigger than what it is.


Sometimes is pays not to temporarily identify as an American or Resident of XYZ state, more socialism for card carriers.


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Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7518651 05/23/19 10:26 PM
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What constitutes being part of the tribe? Does that just mean someone with a min % of ancestry or does the person also have to live in and participate in the tribe’s community? If the latter, the amount of people eligible to use this loophole is probably nominal.

Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7518713 05/23/19 11:41 PM
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I'm not going to post a link because it's on another foum, but there is a very detailed discussion about this case on Randy Newberg's forum. A lot of the folks in the discussion hunt and live in the area, along with some that are very familiar with Indian treaties and Crow tribal issues.
Very interesting discussion.


"One cannot be a mediocre squirrel hunter, and at the same time a skillful deer hunter. The two techniques go together." Francis E. Sell
Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Palehorse] #7518795 05/24/19 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Palehorse
I'm not going to post a link because it's on another foum, but there is a very detailed discussion about this case on Randy Newberg's forum. A lot of the folks in the discussion hunt and live in the area, along with some that are very familiar with Indian treaties and Crow tribal issues.
Very interesting discussion.


What was their take/consensus/or collusion about the SC ruling?


Originally Posted By: skinnerback
Milf does the trick.

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"You Cannot Simultaneously Be Politically Correct And Intellectually Honest!"
Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: Creekrunner] #7518828 05/24/19 01:55 AM
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There is no consensus. Many different opinions and viewpoints. Most agree that it might cause a free-for-all in that area with Crow natives killing whatever they want whenever they want. It started out as a poaching/wanton waste case with elk that were killed out of season and just the heads taken, so of course there was outrage over that. Others say a treaty is a treaty and should now be honored, even though they have been ignored in the past (and are still ignored in a lot of cases). I don't know enough about the subject to contribute anything of value to the conversation, so I'm staying out of it.

In the end, whatever our feelings and opinions are on conservation and native American affairs it is irrelevant. The SCOTUS has ruled and we will have to live with it.


Last edited by Palehorse; 05/24/19 01:57 AM.

"One cannot be a mediocre squirrel hunter, and at the same time a skillful deer hunter. The two techniques go together." Francis E. Sell
Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: DonPablo] #7518832 05/24/19 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DonPablo
What constitutes being part of the tribe? Does that just mean someone with a min % of ancestry or does the person also have to live in and participate in the tribe’s community? If the latter, the amount of people eligible to use this loophole is probably nominal.


Card Carrying.


It doesn’t take much for a tribe to decimate a herd, just drive through crow reservation. Especially with no restrictions including wintering ground skillet shoots. Reason why we don’t have year long seasons.

Also valid to remember why this suit came about, Indian game warden was poaching


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Re: Crow Native American wins hunting case... [Re: DonPablo] #7518862 05/24/19 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by DonPablo
What constitutes being part of the tribe? Does that just mean someone with a min % of ancestry or does the person also have to live in and participate in the tribe’s community? If the latter, the amount of people eligible to use this loophole is probably nominal.


You could always ask Elizabeth Pocahontas Warren.... rofl

I'm either 1/32 or 1/64 Comanche...I believe there is a blood percentage requirement, plus a documented lineage, plus be recognized by the tribe as a member. I'm sure different tribes have somewhat similar but different requirements....but in short, you can't do like Pocahontas Warren and just claim it....


Originally Posted By: skinnerback
Milf does the trick.

"You're statistically more likely to be killed by Hillary Clinton than an NRA member. - PolitiDiva

"You Cannot Simultaneously Be Politically Correct And Intellectually Honest!"
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