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Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: redchevy] #7494753 04/23/19 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by redchevy
... and try to keep the place as quiet as possible all year.


Single most underrated aspect to seeing deer IMO. Well done. up I've come across several goobers that "tear it up" with their 4 wheelers then gripe about how the lease sucks.


...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Trash Fish and Cull Bucks] #7494876 04/23/19 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Trash Fish and Cull Bucks
Plus, there is always the discrepancy between doing what's best for the deer herd and habitat, versus doing what is easiest or most productive to the hunter.


Wont make any bones about it, the property was bought for the sole purpose of hunting and our enjoyment. We do what we can for the deer to do their best including year round supplemental feeding, several surveys, land/brush management, water stations/tank, etc. but the beginning middle and end goal is growing deer for the intent of shooting them, not going to intentionally undermine our best hunting efforts in a marginally more productive management practice.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Stompy] #7495082 04/23/19 10:28 PM
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funny in a sense ... on my current east Texas lease, I joined it the first year they went MLD3 about 3 years ago and the lease agreement stated we were to take at least 2 does before we took a cull or trophy. Opening weekend, I had two does on the ground on the first day. That evening back at camp, I was cleaning the 2nd one when the lease manager drove up. He said "huh, you aren't scared of pulling the trigger are ya?" in front of the rest of the hunters that were hanging around, most of which had been on the lease for many years. I looked him straight in the eye and said with a smile "I took the lease agreement seriously on taking at least 2 does before a buck". He laughed, looked around at all other hunters and said to the general population, "ya'll should take some lessons!!!" ...

I went many years holding off on taking a doe, in hopes they would drag in a trophy ... just to then be scrambling at the end of season to not see anything as the surrounding hunters typically have everything spooked from the hunting pressure. So if there needs to be a certain number of does taken, why not take them early ... I can see it both ways, especially with a MLD3 where the season is ~5 months long.


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Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Stompy] #7495144 04/24/19 12:11 AM
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I’m in the redchevy camp.

The most noise I want any buck to hear is (possibly) the sound of the shot that just killed him. (Or no noise at all if it’s an arrow.) I want it as quiet as possible as long as possible.

99% of folks aren’t really accomplishing any real management goals by shooting does anyway. It takes a lot of doe killing over a large area to have any real impact.


Originally Posted by Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Stompy] #7495749 04/24/19 07:22 PM
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i understand most of the reasons to shoot or not to shoot does, pressure, spooking , etc, that have been posted. I've always looked at it this way: Lets say for argument sake, a trophy buck, that you want to pass on his genes, breeds 10 does a year, if you wait till after they are breed to harvest them,the possibility exist that all does with this bucks traits are killed leaving nothing to be passed on. If they are harvested early, then he breeds 10, his genes are passed on. just my redneck biology 02

Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: hornet527] #7495756 04/24/19 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by hornet527
i understand most of the reasons to shoot or not to shoot does, pressure, spooking , etc, that have been posted. I've always looked at it this way: Lets say for argument sake, a trophy buck, that you want to pass on his genes, breeds 10 does a year, if you wait till after they are breed to harvest them,the possibility exist that all does with this bucks traits are killed leaving nothing to be passed on. If they are harvested early, then he breeds 10, his genes are passed on. just my redneck biology 02

Didn't we have this exact conversation last year?

Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: hornet527] #7495781 04/24/19 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by hornet527
i understand most of the reasons to shoot or not to shoot does, pressure, spooking , etc, that have been posted. I've always looked at it this way: Lets say for argument sake, a trophy buck, that you want to pass on his genes, breeds 10 does a year, if you wait till after they are breed to harvest them,the possibility exist that all does with this bucks traits are killed leaving nothing to be passed on. If they are harvested early, then he breeds 10, his genes are passed on. just my redneck biology 02

I don't personally believe that is how it works in the real world.

Ive also talked to people who said they once upon a time penned the best buck they could find and several does off of their own property and never had it produce a buck even remotely comparable to the original buck. LF native genetics are a crap shoot no telling what your going to get.


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Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Stompy] #7495808 04/24/19 08:01 PM
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If you're worried about spooking bucks, bait several areas away from your hunting areas/stands. Slip in with a tripod or pop up and kill every doe you can in one sit. Then move to the next baited area and so forth. Killing does early from your stands will definitely have a negative effect on mature buck movement. To me, a doe is a doe and I shoot them when given the opportunity. Mature doe or doe fawn, doesn't matter to me. Trying to find does during all three rut cycles can be very difficult. Wait too long and you won't get to your doe harvest numbers.

p.s.-a mature buck that is not in a breeding enclosure, and on a ranch with proper density/sex ratio, isn't breeding 10 does/year. Perhaps 2 or 3.

Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Stompy] #7495868 04/24/19 09:05 PM
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another way to look at it ... kill the does early leaves fewer does when the rut is in full swing, more bucks will be challenging for the fewer does, possibly giving you a higher chance of finding a dominate buck in the area.

just another thought


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Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Stompy] #7495889 04/24/19 09:30 PM
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Most people need to stop thinking about it and just start shooting doe. Probably the easiest way to improve the hunting on the ground you occupy.

Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: redchevy] #7496339 04/25/19 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by redchevy
Originally Posted by hornet527
i understand most of the reasons to shoot or not to shoot does, pressure, spooking , etc, that have been posted. I've always looked at it this way: Lets say for argument sake, a trophy buck, that you want to pass on his genes, breeds 10 does a year, if you wait till after they are breed to harvest them,the possibility exist that all does with this bucks traits are killed leaving nothing to be passed on. If they are harvested early, then he breeds 10, his genes are passed on. just my redneck biology 02

I don't personally believe that is how it works in the real world.

Ive also talked to people who said they once upon a time penned the best buck they could find and several does off of their own property and never had it produce a buck even remotely comparable to the original buck. LF native genetics are a crap shoot no telling what your going to get.


without getting into genetics and all that bla bla bla, which i understand, real world or not, one thing is certain. If a doe is bred with favorable genetic and she is shot. She will NOT(this being the point of my previous post) pass those genes on.

Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Stompy] #7496379 04/25/19 01:25 PM
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The problem with that, though, is that several studies (actually every study that has looked at it) have shown that contribution from any 1 buck during a breeding season is minimal, very minimal. No such thing as a dominant breeder. Along the same lines, if a doe is carrying a buck destined to be a mature 7 point, if you don't shoot her, he ends up being born. Bottom line is you don't know either way, but there are multiple other reasons to shoot does.


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Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Stompy] #7496382 04/25/19 01:27 PM
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We shoot our does early so we can get them to the processor and know that we've accomplished the primary goal of any season, to put meat in the freezer. Then we just enjoy our time the woods and fellowship while trying to take a very respectable buck or hog.


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Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: hornet527] #7496386 04/25/19 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by hornet527
Originally Posted by redchevy
Originally Posted by hornet527
i understand most of the reasons to shoot or not to shoot does, pressure, spooking , etc, that have been posted. I've always looked at it this way: Lets say for argument sake, a trophy buck, that you want to pass on his genes, breeds 10 does a year, if you wait till after they are breed to harvest them,the possibility exist that all does with this bucks traits are killed leaving nothing to be passed on. If they are harvested early, then he breeds 10, his genes are passed on. just my redneck biology 02

I don't personally believe that is how it works in the real world.

Ive also talked to people who said they once upon a time penned the best buck they could find and several does off of their own property and never had it produce a buck even remotely comparable to the original buck. LF native genetics are a crap shoot no telling what your going to get.


without getting into genetics and all that bla bla bla, which i understand, real world or not, one thing is certain. If a doe is bred with favorable genetic and she is shot. She will NOT(this being the point of my previous post) pass those genes on.


My point was that in a low fence native genetic environment, all the deer are mutts, none of them have a pedigree and by some degree they are all inter related and carry many of the same traits. Im taller and balding, my brother is shorter and has a head of hair like a shag carpet, we have the same mom and dad. What a buck fawn turns out like is a complete crap shoot weather it was bread by a good deer for the area or a no brow 6.


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Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: hornet527] #7496404 04/25/19 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by hornet527
Originally Posted by redchevy
Originally Posted by hornet527
i understand most of the reasons to shoot or not to shoot does, pressure, spooking , etc, that have been posted. I've always looked at it this way: Lets say for argument sake, a trophy buck, that you want to pass on his genes, breeds 10 does a year, if you wait till after they are breed to harvest them,the possibility exist that all does with this bucks traits are killed leaving nothing to be passed on. If they are harvested early, then he breeds 10, his genes are passed on. just my redneck biology 02

I don't personally believe that is how it works in the real world.

Ive also talked to people who said they once upon a time penned the best buck they could find and several does off of their own property and never had it produce a buck even remotely comparable to the original buck. LF native genetics are a crap shoot no telling what your going to get.


without getting into genetics and all that bla bla bla, which i understand, real world or not, one thing is certain. If a doe is bred with favorable genetic and she is shot. She will NOT(this being the point of my previous post) pass those genes on.


In theory yes, in actuality depends on you management/tag ability. No way he is producing/conceiving fawns much less even attempting to breed 10 does in season unless he is in a DM pen

In theory if you cull all your does AND cull bucks before rut, then the fawns will be of a more desirable genetic as a larger percentage, again assuming you have a management ability to actually keep the population numbers down to influence sir percentage,

Actuality most people don’t even hunt a property that can even outsize yearling buck dispersal, much less have a tag allocation that can effectively manage ratio’s.

I like to have my brauts and meat ball appropriation checked off before Nov so I don’t get stuck in the panic mode in Jan trying to find a doe that’s really not that active.






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Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: redchevy] #7496709 04/25/19 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by redchevy
And just for clarification our place is 320 acres. We feed year round, food plot fallow disk and try to keep the place as quiet as possible all year.

Sounds exactly like our place. We don't shoot does at all though. Just don't see enough of them. 2-3 bucks per doe, year after year. Busted antlers, gored bucks that die. Heavy rut. I'd like to get to a point where we NEEDED to kill doe. We're just not there yet.

Last edited by Erathkid; 04/25/19 06:36 PM.

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Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Stompy] #7497235 04/26/19 06:19 AM
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We just don't see does early period. January might see 5 to 15 but before that it's a crap shoot. We don't shoot does until last if we need meat. Rather hunt bucks early during rut. Does stay hidden. Seeing 2 to 5 does early does not mean we need to shoot them when you see 2 to 5 bucks in a hunt. We are 1,100 acres. Now S. Tex is way different. Now if we could age on our bucks we would match them for quality....




Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Stompy] #7497801 04/27/19 12:30 AM
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This is all too much thinking and not as much fun as just going out there and having fun. Unless you are in a true controlled environment, the rules could change with each sunrise.


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Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Stompy] #7497920 04/27/19 02:18 AM
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Shoot um.. stop when the freezer is full or you run out of tags. The when doesn't matter as long as the season is open!


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Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Stompy] #7499192 04/29/19 02:27 AM
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My bad, shouldn't have said " for argument sake" lol. Maybe I should have been clearer on my assumption that for argument sake would indicate a hypothetical situation, but I digress. Whether a buck breeds 1 or a 100, if you shoot the doe , she will not reproduce. Thanks for the internet biology lesson anyways.

Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: hornet527] #7499468 04/29/19 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by hornet527
My bad, shouldn't have said " for argument sake" lol. Maybe I should have been clearer on my assumption that for argument sake would indicate a hypothetical situation, but I digress. Whether a buck breeds 1 or a 100, if you shoot the doe , she will not reproduce. Thanks for the internet biology lesson anyways.


You mean ecology lessons.

when you take her (between Oct- March)is irrelevant to controlling herd genetics unless you have the resources to significantly influence herd sires.

Only way you can influence populations(out side of killing x numbers of does) is when you concentrate your efforts on older does that statically tend to have higher twin recruitment on good years. As herd dynamics and health change younger does then will start to have twins earlier, so even that is circular.


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Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Stompy] #7499976 04/29/19 09:31 PM
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Problem we have is many yearlings are still nursing in October and just getting the boot in early November, Last year in the extended doe season we cleaned one doe that still had a sack of milk. Told the hunter to pass on this particular doe but he screwed up.

'Once we shoot once or twice at a blind, odds are slim that any mature deer will show up during the daytime.
That being said most of our doe 's are shot during the extended season.

Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Sugars Pop] #7500410 04/30/19 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Sugars Pop
Problem we have is many yearlings are still nursing in October and just getting the boot in early November, Last year in the extended doe season we cleaned one doe that still had a sack of milk. Told the hunter to pass on this particular doe but he screwed up.

'Once we shoot once or twice at a blind, odds are slim that any mature deer will show up during the daytime.
That being said most of our doe 's are shot during the extended season.


The biologist will tell you to go ahead and shoot that lactating doe if the fawns are good-sized. They'll be okay.


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Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Sugars Pop] #7500452 04/30/19 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Sugars Pop
Problem we have is many yearlings are still nursing in October and just getting the boot in early November, Last year in the extended doe season we cleaned one doe that still had a sack of milk. Told the hunter to pass on this particular doe but he screwed up.

'Once we shoot once or twice at a blind, odds are slim that any mature deer will show up during the daytime.
That being said most of our doe 's are shot during the extended season.


Once the fawn reaches 6 weeks of age, it is a fully functional ruminant and can survive on it's own (they just still grab a free meal from mama when they can). For sure by the time it loses it's spots. I don't know that I've ever killed a doe in October or November that wasn't still lactating, wouldn't let that keep you from shooting a doe.


Also, if just a shot or two is really affecting buck behavior, then that is more of a function of intense buck hunting pressure. Further complicating the issue by not shooting an adequate number of does most likely adds to the problem by skewing the sex ratio (overharvest of bucks and an underharvest of does, which further depresses buck activity). I've hunted/guided on many ranches that maintained high doe harvests without really affecting buck activity. Plus, in heavily hunted areas with high buck harvests, bucks typically shy away from feeders anyway, regardless of the number of shots.


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Re: Your Opinion On Killing Does [Re: Trash Fish and Cull Bucks] #7501473 05/01/19 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Trash Fish and Cull Bucks
Removing does absolutely affects buck activity, but in a positive way. If the sex ratio is skewed towards too many does, bucks don't really have to compete for, or search very hard for, does. So, while the intent may be to keep does around to 'draw in bucks', it doesn't really work that way. The tighter the sex ratio, the more buck activity because bucks have to search more and harder for limited the breeding possibilities.


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