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Working bevel angle and performance #7478899 04/05/19 07:47 PM
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If you make two knives that are identical except for the final working bevel angle (the part of the blade which does the actual cutting) and one is beveled at 40+ degrees and the other at 24 degrees. Which knife will have superior performance when cutting through wood, meat and other substances that you would normally use an every day carry knife to cut through?

What do you believe the working bevel angle of your knife is?

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Bush Monkey Knives; 04/05/19 07:48 PM.
Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Bush Monkey Knives] #7478903 04/05/19 07:53 PM
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I'm not a knife maker, but I'll play. I sharpen my hunting, utility, and pocket knives at 25 degrees and my kitchen knives at 20 degrees...so I'll go with 25 degrees for the win!


Originally Posted by txhuntingguide
If I choose to hunt in a coon tail hat, a pink tootoo and hip waders that is my fine...
Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: unclebubba] #7478905 04/05/19 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by unclebubba
I'm not a knife maker, but I'll play. I sharpen my hunting, utility, and pocket knives at 25 degrees and my kitchen knives at 20 degrees...so I'll go with 25 degrees for the win!


I bet that's 20 and 25 degrees/side which results in a 40 and 50 degree inclusive working bevel.

Do you believe your 40-50 degree working bevel will perform better or worse than a 24 degree working bevel?

Anyone...?

Last edited by Bush Monkey Knives; 04/05/19 07:57 PM.
Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Bush Monkey Knives] #7478928 04/05/19 08:22 PM
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Ok, I see what you are saying. Well, the 24 degree bevel (that would be sharpening at 12 degrees on each side, right?) would quite obviously be sharper, but will be weaker and dull faster.


Originally Posted by txhuntingguide
If I choose to hunt in a coon tail hat, a pink tootoo and hip waders that is my fine...
Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Bush Monkey Knives] #7478937 04/05/19 08:55 PM
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I don't have an answer but I will when I get a knife I sent to a knifemaker back. He plans to change the thickness of the blade near the edge and change the sharpening bevel.







Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Bush Monkey Knives] #7479095 04/06/19 12:13 AM
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If the scales are pinned then both are wrong


Originally Posted By: skinnerback
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Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Bush Monkey Knives] #7479219 04/06/19 02:21 AM
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I would go with the 20-25 angle for hunting type knives ( which would be 40 to 50 degree inclusive) that's my story and I am sticking to it Maybe?


SNAP: I forgot the pinned Scales angle thingy bolt

Last edited by hetman; 04/06/19 02:26 AM.

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You made a mistake
You got the wrong guy
Iím only guilty of a damn good time

Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: unclebubba] #7479370 04/06/19 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by unclebubba
Ok, I see what you are saying. Well, the 24 degree bevel (that would be sharpening at 12 degrees on each side, right?) would quite obviously be sharper, but will be weaker and dull faster.


It will be sharper but not necessarily weaker and dull faster. There is a lot more steel behind the working bevel of Scandinavian beveled knives beveled at 24 degrees than flat ground knives with primary and secondary bevels that have a 40+ degree working bevel. And, based on my experience of making >1500 knives for guys in Special Operations, all branches of the military, professional guides, professional meat cutters, Poilce, SWAT, Firefighters, hunters, fisherman, bushcrafters, SERE Instructors...etc - not a single knife was ever reported for having a weak bevel that failed to hold an edge. If I received feedback, it was how "scary sharp" the knife was.

Bevels are not magic and what I do is very simple and has very little to do with me - it's all geometry, physics and parasite drag (friction).

Thank you for taking a stab at a subject that cuts (pun intended) to the core of knife design and performance. I appreciate your well articulated comments.

-Jeff

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Last edited by Bush Monkey Knives; 04/06/19 11:10 AM.
Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: DLALLDER] #7479371 04/06/19 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by DLALLDER
I don't have an answer but I will when I get a knife I sent to a knifemaker back. He plans to change the thickness of the blade near the edge and change the sharpening bevel.



I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thank you.

Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: SnakeWrangler] #7479372 04/06/19 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by SnakeWrangler
If the scales are pinned then both are wrong



The voice of experience...I look forward to seeing the knives you've made.

Carry on!

Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: hetman] #7479373 04/06/19 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by hetman
I would go with the 20-25 angle for hunting type knives ( which would be 40 to 50 degree inclusive) that's my story and I am sticking to it Maybe?


SNAP: I forgot the pinned Scales angle thingy bolt



And, how would a 50 degree inclusive working bevel perform when compared to a 24 degree inclusive working bevel? We can pretend your knife is held together by something other than pins and glue for the purpose of this discussion clap

Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Bush Monkey Knives] #7479385 04/06/19 11:39 AM
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If you have not experienced a low angle bevel knife, you may be missing out on something.

Don't buy mine for $300 - try out a Mora for less than $20.

https://www.amazon.com/Morakniv-Allround-Multi-Purpose-Carbon-4-0-Inch/dp/B0090UW9W8/ref=sr_1_9?crid=1G40YAQPV4X22&keywords=mora+knife+carbon+steel&qid=1554550653&s=gateway&sprefix=mora+knife%2Caps%2C217&sr=8-9[Linked Image]

Last edited by Bush Monkey Knives; 04/06/19 11:43 AM.
Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Smokey Bear] #7479407 04/06/19 12:18 PM
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Interesting...

Stainless steel or carbon blade knives?

How did you go about measuring the angle? I ask this because 60 degrees is almost unheard of and would be a very dull blade when it's sharpened perfectly as compared to a bevel of less than 30 degrees. Saying that a 60 degree bevel is sharp is a relative, because compared to a 24 degree bevel, a 40+ degree beveled knife is never "sharp".

thanks for commenting

Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Bush Monkey Knives] #7479420 04/06/19 12:44 PM
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I was taught to sharpen knives using a 30 degree block until I could feel it by the old butchers who made me sharpen everybody's knives every morning. It was a rite of passage. Knives were stainless. Mostly German steel.

Sharp enough to shave is sharp in anybody's book.

Actual working edge was 30, I need coffee before I type stuff. I can still put a 30 degree edge on a good knife that is sharp enough to cut your eyeballs if you look at it too hard, but I have never put a protractor on it.

Last edited by Smokey Bear; 04/06/19 01:00 PM.

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Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Smokey Bear] #7479431 04/06/19 12:59 PM
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Stainless steels, especially back then were very different from high carbon steels. A bevel than works well on a carbon steel blade may very well be a poor choice on a stainless steel blade.


Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
I was taught to sharpen knives using a 30 degree block until I could feel it by the old butchers who made me sharpen everybody's knives every morning. It was a rite of passage. Knives were stainless. Mostly German steel.


It sounds like you got plenty of knife sharpening practice - lol.

Thanks again for your comments.

Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Bush Monkey Knives] #7479432 04/06/19 01:02 PM
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So, couldn't I get the same results by just sharpening my knives at a 12 degree angle instead of a 20 or 25 degree angle? It may take a while on the stone to change the angle of the edge, but would I get the same results as I would with just buying a new knife?


Originally Posted by txhuntingguide
If I choose to hunt in a coon tail hat, a pink tootoo and hip waders that is my fine...
Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Bush Monkey Knives] #7479433 04/06/19 01:02 PM
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I edited my post. Angle of edge I was taught is a measured 30 degrees. Sorry if I mucked up your post.


Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Smokey Bear] #7479504 04/06/19 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
I edited my post. Angle of edge I was taught is a measured 30 degrees. Sorry if I mucked up your post.



30 Degrees on stainless as a working knife is optimal. Thanks for clarifying.

No worries and thanks again for the well thought coments.

Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: unclebubba] #7479509 04/06/19 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by unclebubba
So, couldn't I get the same results by just sharpening my knives at a 12 degree angle instead of a 20 or 25 degree angle? It may take a while on the stone to change the angle of the edge, but would I get the same results as I would with just buying a new knife?



No

Because the knife is most likely flat ground with a primary and secondary bevel. When you have a flat grind primary bevel, it leaves very little steel behind the working edge and for that reason the edge would be very fragile if taken down to 12 degrees/side or 24 degrees inclusive.

The knife in the pic below is beveled at 12 degrees/side with no flat grind. Note how much steel and mass remain in the blade and is behind the 24 degree inclusive working edge. It looks and performs different because it is different.

[Linked Image]


Last edited by Bush Monkey Knives; 04/06/19 03:18 PM.
Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Bush Monkey Knives] #7479515 04/06/19 02:12 PM
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Some great comments about one of three factors that determines how a blade will perform.

In the final analysis, three things determine how a blade will perform.

1. Type of steel

2. Heat Treat

3. The topic of this discussion - BEVEL GEOMETRY.

Thanks for your comments. Keep this most relevant discussion going. I hope the knife makers on this forum participate.

Last edited by Bush Monkey Knives; 04/06/19 03:08 PM.
Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Bush Monkey Knives] #7479782 04/06/19 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Bush Monkey Knives
If you have not experienced a low angle bevel knife, you may be missing out on something.

Don't buy mine for $300 - try out a Mora for less than $20.

https://www.amazon.com/Morakniv-Allround-Multi-Purpose-Carbon-4-0-Inch/dp/B0090UW9W8/ref=sr_1_9?crid=1G40YAQPV4X22&keywords=mora+knife+carbon+steel&qid=1554550653&s=gateway&sprefix=mora+knife%2Caps%2C217&sr=8-9[Linked Image]


Thank you for this recommendation.

However, the knife pictured is not the same knife in the link you provided.
The pictured knife is closer to $80.00 not $20.00 ($80.00 is still cheap for a good knife.

I might give this one a whirl for $18.00
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SROLRD...DSQSA&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

.

Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: dredd] #7479786 04/06/19 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by dredd
Originally Posted by Bush Monkey Knives
If you have not experienced a low angle bevel knife, you may be missing out on something.

Don't buy mine for $300 - try out a Mora for less than $20.

https://www.amazon.com/Morakniv-Allround-Multi-Purpose-Carbon-4-0-Inch/dp/B0090UW9W8/ref=sr_1_9?crid=1G40YAQPV4X22&keywords=mora+knife+carbon+steel&qid=1554550653&s=gateway&sprefix=mora+knife%2Caps%2C217&sr=8-9[Linked Image]


Thank you for this recommendation.

However, the knife pictured is not the same knife in the link you provided.
The pictured knife is closer to $80.00 not $20.00 ($80.00 is still cheap for a good knife.

I might give this one a whirl for $18.00
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SROLRD...DSQSA&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

.



I was unable to grab the pic off Amazon but the idea is that you can get a Mora knife with a Scandinavian bevel ~24 degrees for $18 or less if you shop around. I encourage everyone to try a low angle bevel - you will be pleasantly surprised with the performance gain.

thank you

Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Bush Monkey Knives] #7486431 04/13/19 08:39 PM
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[Linked Image]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that your knives have a bevel on both sides and not a single sided scandi grind. Do you grind your knives only on one side to a true 24 degree bevel as stated, or does this picture show a two sided bevel that would make them a 48 degree bevel at the cutting edge?

Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Bush Monkey Knives] #7494058 04/22/19 05:35 PM
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It depends. I don't use a knife for an ax. I therefore grind and re-bevel the edge much thinner. The thinner bevel helps me resharpen the edge. If you can sharpen in a shop then a heavier bevel can be made razor sharp but for me, I do better with a thinner bevel simply because it helps me in sharpening.

Re: Working bevel angle and performance [Re: Bush Monkey Knives] #7494135 04/22/19 07:21 PM
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I don't know if kitchen knives are relevant to this discussion, but I have heard that European/American kitchen knives are normally 40 degrees, and Asian kitchen knives are 30 degrees.
Now that I know you can't or shouldn't change the bevel, I wish knives came with bevel info marked right on the blade, the way tires come with info of how much you should inflate them.

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