I have the RCBS Beam scale and the Charge Master setup which is good, but have been thinking about getting a better quality digital scale for powder charges. In our labs at work, those guys are pretty big on Sartorious, and talk them up quite a bit. Do any of you guys use a lab scale and/or have a particular make and model you like besides the mainstream RCBS and so forth?

There are quite a few that use Gempro scales. The 250 is quite popular

I would like to upgrade to an auto trickler

I use the FX-120 to final weigh after using the Chargemaster. It weighs to .02 grains

FX-120 with Auto thrower, and Auto trickler, loading to .02 gr.

But, I really believe, if you have good eyes, a properly zeroed beam scale, and read the scale at eye level, you can build charges that probably are to the kernal or two, same as the FX-120. The reason I got the whole set up was to speed up the loading process. I cannot give a scientific, definitive answer as to whether or not the FX-120 is actually making "better ammo" than an RCBS 5-0-5. But it does make ammo to the same quality, it just does it faster.

Cheap
Fast
Right

^^You can only have two. And it applies to millions of things.

Man you guys really are serious! A $750 scale? I'd love to get a digital scale that is more accurate, but I just can't justify that. Any other suggestions?

As has been discussed. Get a good beam scale. It will read just as precise.

And, you do not have to have electricity to run it. Interpret that as you wish....

Yes, but the beam scales are a pain in the you know what and are slower than Methuselah...

Fireman, have you or Chad done an experiment comparing the accurate to .02 grain powder charges to .1?

Curiosity, you always here xyz is better, I like to know better by how much before I spend money on it. Not doubting or trying to be a dick, just truly curious what the measurable improvement is.

I do always make sure to use the wind shield on my chargemaster and dump out over/under throws.

Then you should definitely reference back to the "good-cheap-fast" post. It's true.

Cheap and good - beam scale
Fast and good - FX 120
Cheap and fast - chargemaster

Pick your poison.

They aren't that bad, I used mine for years, still have it and it still works just fine.

My first chargemaster is showing up at the house today. Been borrowing a buddy's for awhile now. And I typically throw it a hair low and trickle up on my beam scale, which has worked out just fine for the quantity of loading I do.

That being said, I've heard of significant under/over throws. Do those read out on the digital scale on the CM, or do you have to find those on a different scale yourself?

I have been using a Pact despenser and scale for 20+ years, good stuff but don't think they are available any longer. For most of my loading I use a Harrell's powder drop, very consistent and much faster.
My old benchrest mentor believed that consistent volume was more critical than weight and I concur.

Larry

At the current moment I don't weigh anything off the charge master on another scale. I let it warm up and calibrate and zero it every time I use it. I make sure it measures to the correct tenths decimal and isn't fluctuating before I put it in the case.

Guess im gonna have to bust out the old beam scale again and check up on it... I better dust it first! lol

Only my opinion but if the powder can be settled compacted etc. weight is a more accurate measure. That is why bakers weigh flour instead of using cups because a packed cup has more flour than a non packed one etc.

I use a powder drop for almost all of my ammo. Plenty close enough for normal shooting, training, and plinking. I don't shoot off a bench, so the load is always more accurate than me standing, and running around. Still plenty accurate to hit a 2/3 silhouette unsupported at 300 yards. Now for ammo that I want the most accuracy out of, yes I weigh each load. But that is such a small portion of my loading.

I use a Lyman 1200 DPS2 electronic thrower/scale/trickler and check occasionally with a Pact electronic scale and occasionally with a check weight. With ball powder I set it to throw 0.1 grain low and trickle, and with stick powder I set it 0.2 low and trickle. Works great, though it won’t weigh to anything like 0.02 grains. Maybe, if I was shooting to 1000 yards, going to 0.02 accuracy would be needed. As for beam scales, my old RCBS 1010 beam scale is boxed up somewhere.

Actually they give less trouble than many electronic scales. Electronic scales care about ambient temp, the lighting near them, a cell phone near them, ect. Beam scales run the same, no matter if those factors mentioned are in place or not.

7mm-08, 39.0 gr H-Varget, 162 gr A-Max, and a truck axle for a barrel. The rifle weighs 17 pounds.

Chargemaster loading, ES of 18-19, vertical dispersion at 600 to 800 yards may or may not spread out .1 Mil

Load it with a beam scale, exact same load. ES is 10, and lost vertical dispersion at 600 to 800 yards.

Consistent powder charge is THE most important factor. However, you might not realize the benefits inside 300 yards.

You set the Chargemaster at 42.4 grains, and it will read 42.4 grains 90% of the time. Move the pan to a higher end digital scale, or a beam scale and only then will you see the error. I went as far as counting kernals to see the under and over throws. My Chargemaster has a .3 gr error. So some will be .15 gr light, and some will be .15 gr heavy.

I agree. Weight of fuel is going to burn. Volune is a factor of the vessel it is going into. In this case, a piece of brass. When you want to concern yourself with volume, weigh and sort your brass.

My 7mm-08 A.I. wasn't shooting as good as I thought it should (lower end barrel from my usual) even though I use Lapua brass in that rifle, I weighed it, and sorted it. Immediately it tightened up. But the weight of powder is the same no matter the weight of brass.

Thanks for sharing.

That is what I experienced, my beam scale weighing better than my Chargemaster.

Great input from everyone, thx.

I'm not even gonna read this whole thread

Unless you shoot 200yd- 1000k benchrest, you DON'T need this type of accuracy.

UNLESS, you got $$$ and just want to do it. Which is fine.

BUT

99.9% of hunters and steel bangers are fine with a good scale and Chargemaster

^^Exactly right, Brad.

It takes .2 grains change to see on paper at 200y or less.

So to Buzz's point, unless you are shooting longer distances a Chargemaster is probably all you need.

That is something I have never really tested out, good to know. I have targets behind my house to 500 yds, so I may see some benefit. I have been out of the target shooting deal for the last eight years or so, but my son is getting interested in it, so I'm getting things set back up and upgrading a few pieces of equipment.

When things get "easy" hang you up a 5" plate out there. If that gets easy, hang a 2 1/2" plate there.
I've got a 4" at 800 yards. It'll show two things, is your ammo loaded dead nuts perfect, and can you read and properly correct for wind.

That will challenge us for sure. I probably need to get my son over there to take your course sometime so he learns better than I can teach him. Lord know I could benefit from it too.

The range is always in service. There is a roof over the platform, and I have spotted in the rain.

[/quote]My 7mm-08 A.I. wasn't shooting as good as I thought it should (lower end barrel from my usual) even though I use Lapua brass in that rifle, I weighed it, and sorted it. Immediately it tightened up. But the weight of powder is the same no matter the weight of brass.[/quote]

Did you weigh and sort the brass as virgin or fired? I would weigh and sort virgin brass.
If fired, will trimming it have any effect or weighing and sorting? I assumed it may. Just a thought.

It was all fired and trimmed. Thus showing me case capacity.

I use a Chargemaster set .1 grn low then use the FX-120 and trickle. I've noted a greater than .1 grn variance on the Chargemaster. I've done the same thing with my balance scale and felt it was more precise than the Chargemaster. I only do this for my precision rifles.

Ah snap, where has my head gone? I seem to have forgotten tonight. Must be the lack of coffee.

nice set up!!!

You won't be disappointed if you take Jason's class.....My son took it and by the end of the day he did hit the 4" target at 800 yards....Took a few shots and Jason calling the wind hold but still very impressive....

Depending on powder type the harrell's throw can be scary accurate. Also here is a link to a test a friend did with a few of the scales mentioned above. Keep in mind 4350 is not a great powder for the harrells but it still did relatively well.

https://youtu.be/PqO0iWXLQIg

https://youtu.be/mqvbG2hzUgM

Dee, thanks for sharing the videos, they are very informative. They did a good job with the comparison.

To satisfy my OCD tendencies, for my accuracy rifles I load to within one kernel of powder. Its probably not worth the effort but it makes me feel good and I enjoy it. I use a RCBS/Oehler 10-10 scale and a digital camera connected to my laptop so that i can see the pointer move with each kernel. I'm going to purchase a Dandy Omega Auto Trickler when they get back in stock. I'll post me results with it after I try it for a while.

Meant Ohaus not Oehler

Worth mentioning that I have been running my chargemaster Lite a bit and the accuracy is quite a bit better than the 1500. Mine has been within 3 kernels (about half a grain) every throw, and within 0-2 throws for well over half of the charges. Overall, it's sped up my loading a ton and the accuracy is better than what I expected given the price.

3 kernals is usually .1 gr

Depends on the powder

Yeah big discrepancy on kernel size. Some like IMR 7828 have huge kernals while others are 1/2 or a 1/3 that size.

This unit is not capable of throwing charges within 3 kernels of powder consistently. Even in their website, it says "can dispense anywhere between 2-300 grains with a +/-0.1-grain accuracy", which means .1 high or .1 low, so within .3 grains. This scale is most likely a strain gauge scale, which is great for keeping costs low. But not within 3 kernels, which 3 kernels would be accurate to less than .1 grain overall.

http://rcbs.com/Products/Powder-Measures-and-Scales/Powder-Measures/Electronic/ChargeMaster%E2%84%A2-Lite.aspx

Isnt a 0.1 grain up or down within a 0.2 range?

Also +/-0.1 grain is the best they guarantee, it is quite possible that some or a lot of them are more accurate than that. I know every time I use mine I calibrate it with the check weights and every time I use it I check the check weights before I calibrate it and its never off. It also always reads the pan to the same .1 every time before I zero it.

RC - if it's +/- .1 if your target is 32.6 that means it could be 32.5 or 32.7....thus the range is .03.....32.5, 32.6, 32.7

32.7-32.5=.2

I might be wrong. Yes there are 3 values, but the range is still 1 up and 1 down netting 2 units in this case two tenths or 0.2

It may read out within .1, but the internal part of the scale is not that accurate. It can still read to within .1, but the true weight can be +/- .1. I see this all the time on my RCBS Chargemaster. It will read out the exact weight I want, but still be .1 under or over. It's the quality of the internal scale I'm talking about, not what it reads out.

I get that, and im not saying it is the highest quality scale on earth or anything. Im just saying my check weights are exact and my charge master always displays the exactly correct weight when I weigh my check weights. Granted that is in grams, maybe I will have to check it in grains to see what it says.

.1 grams is 1.54 grains. The gram measurement is much larger and broader weight then grains. So if your check weight is exactly 50.0 grams, you still have within 1.5 grains spread due to the conversion. Weigh it in grains after complete and compare.

Try this. Calibrate your RCBS scale exactly after it has warmed up and when you have it properly tuned. Then after 1-2 hours of loading, check the calibration again. These type of scales will wander up or down. They are great scales and I still use them. But people "think" they are spot on, but the internal scales are not capable of being that accurate. I own 2 laboratory scales that are $800-$1000 each. They are within .02 grains, and I weigh powder on a daily basis from the RCBS scales to see this variation. My point is, strain beam scales do not have the ability to be accurate "consistently" to less than .1 grain. They are good scales for the money, but will certainly vary by more than .1 grains.

32.5 / 32.6 / 32.7

That's three different powder charges that could all read the exact same number on the scale's output....thus the chargemasters acceptable range is .3

In mathematics the range is defined by the largest number less the smallest.

From 32.5 to 32.6 is 0.1 grain and from 32.6 to 32.7 is 0.1 grain. You cant add 0.1 and 0.1 and get 0.3.

As a good buddy of mine once told me....I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you

I got a feeling I know who your good friend is.

Its funny to me, at least right now when I think im right. The maximum error is .2 grains.

And if you're in the node that variance is hard to notice. That being said single digit sd is easily achieved on a rcbs and is more than sufficient for everything except br or f-class as most can not shoot much less read the wind of the difference between a 15 or lower sd vs a single digit sd.

At Rifles Only this weekend, I had a guy heavily argue with me that a round needed outside oxygen to burn, ignite and fire a round. I said no, gun powder has an oxidizer in it and does not need outside oxygen to fire. That's how it is able to fire under water. His answer- oh, there's oxygen in water. I laughed and said go jump in the bottom of the pool for 3 minutes and then tell me there's oxygen in the water. I then laughed and walked away. Some people always "think" they are right.

Some of them are right too.

He is right to a degree... there is plenty of oxygen in water... you know, H 2 0

I have no idea, would gunpowder burn in a vacuum?

Even if the powder has an oxidizer on it, I don't know what that is other than a substance with oxygen in it. Would a primer fire in the absence of oxygen?

No kidding?

Key word "USUALLY".

go jump in the bottom of the pool for 3 minutes and then tell me there's oxygen in the water

Redchevy if your load is 44.5 and it’s a +/- .1 then that would be 44.4-44.6. I don’t understand what you don’t understand.

Are you just arguing at this point?

I know that guy!!!

^^^ This.

Either trolling or not too smart. Been several months, and I still have not figured out which.

Well for the sake of being right yes I am arguing. I don't know how yal don't get that the intended number isn't and error. With an accuracy of + or - 0.1 you do not get a RANGE (this is a mathematical term, look it up) of 0.3. You get a range of 0.2, or 0.1 below and 0.1 above your intended point. Some of you may like to think you know the answers to world peace and hunger but you aren't God and you don't know everything. I have several very bright people who know their way around reloading arguing a point they are wrong on and trying to make me sound like the stupid one lol. Someone should be the bigger person and admit they are wrong.

I guess calling a disagreement trolling is the only way to admit your wrong or there may be another way.

They have made rats breath under water.

Oh I don’t think your trolling I think you believe what you’re saying.

Me? Just me?
Do you see several other smart people here telling you that you are wrong? Yet again...

I get it now...no disrespect but I have no other way to describe it except you're thinking like my wife....which is backwards.

The Maximum ERROR is .2 (one up/one down) but the men here are talking about Maximum RANGE which is .3 and a chargemaster can give you a reading and it's within a .3 RANGE.

Does that help your understanding? and yes...you might have run into him

Yes I see them. I believe they are wrong if they think the range is .3

You are using the term range incorrectly, my man

I’d also like to add I’m supporting my side in a way other than implying yal are invalids

I know good and well my particular Chargemaster has a range of .15 gr low, and .15 gr high.

.15
+.15
=3.0

I know this because I set the Chargemaster to throw 42.4 gr, and moved the pan of powder to a beam scale. Then I counted kerbals of H-4350 I had to remove with tweezers, or trickle in by hand. I documented 20 throws, and made a post about it here.

Months later I obtained an FX-120i that does measure to .02 gr. It confirmed the data I made with the beam scale. My Chargemaster has a .3 gr error.

No he's not

Minus .15
Plus .15
Is a .3 range, total.

Shoot one loaded .15 light, and the next one .15 heavy, those two shots were loaded in a range of .3 gr.

I use the CM Lite, it has sped up my reloading and has made better more consistent loads over my previous method. Which was using a dipper spoon and manual trickler on a Hornady digital scale.

Yes if you change .1 to .15 then that makes the range .3.... but that isn't what anyone was discussing that I can tell.

I see I started a fun debate.

Bottom line - I threw about 100 charges and none needed more than 3 kernels of H-4350 added or taken away to be dead center on my beam scale. Most needed 0, 1 or 2 (I'd say maybe 40% needed zero adjustment - with the remaining 60% split evenly between 0, 1, or 2 kernels off). This is significantly faster than manually dumping powder onto the beam scale pan and hoping not to go over, pulling it off if I do, etc. Major PITA. I have used a Chargemaster 1500 and found that it was a good bit less accurate than the Lite model I have now.

Wouldn't expect someone to use a CM if they're loading thousands of rounds a year - the FX-120 is a no-brainer. But for someone like me who probably averages around 500 rounds of pistol and 500 rounds of rifle shooting per year, it was a very wise investment over manual dumping, and it performs much too good to consider spending upwards of $1k on the FX-120 setup with auto-trickle.

As for the kernels per grain, I had done a test awhile back on the beam scale trying to determine how many kernels per grain. I'll re-do it with my electronic scale now to see if I come up with a different answer. No, I wasn't trying to weigh one grain of powder - I had come up with a slightly more eloquent approach, but I can't quite remember now.

One more thing - I read something about the error of the CM Lite increased with powder weight - i.e. at low powder charges, the error is lower and increases as you increase charge weight. So it would make more sense for my 6.5CM to see lower variances compared to someone loading up 300NM with 90 grains of powder. But not sure if that's true or not.

I will say that I am very careful to warm up the electronics and do a good calibration before loading with the CM, whether it's the 1500 or the Lite.

Glad to see everyone's having a fun debate on scales today though!

Interesting, finally got to watch it, thanks for sharing.

are going straight from CM to case or do you still hand trickle up to desired weight?

The CM LIte has an auto trickler built into it. I just set it to my desired weight and it does the rest.

This has been a fun read. Three beers and lots of smiles.
Issue #1- Three charges, ascending in 0.1 grain increments (42.0, 42.1, 42.2) total spread of 0.2 gr.
Issue #2- accuracy of the scale it's weighed on. I quit using a chargemaster because according to my beam scale, what the chargemaster showed as 42 grains had approximately a three grain spread that the chargemaster did not show.

I eventually just went back to throwing light with a powder measure and trickling up because that 0.3 grains drove me nuts.

Three beers left and I don't have the lite.

Its always a fun read. Many times disagreement is where learning comes from. Hope we can all look at it positively.

In vintage BMX the saying is cheap, strong, light - pick two. In reloading it's precise, quick, cheap - pick two.

Yep.

To follow up on my last post, my CM Lite must have only had one really good run in it. Loaded a bunch more ammo the other day and it was just about the same as the CM 1500 I'd used before. Lots of good charges but definitely you'd see some that are .1-.2 grains high every now and then. Still glad I got it, but I no longer believe it's any more accurate than the 1500. Works great for my purposes so long as I'm trickling on the beam scale afterwards.